Folau set to depart the Dragons ?

[Martyn Sadler]

6 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

He made multiple 'anti-gay' remarks on social media which led to his sacking by the ARFU and then followed that up with further social media remarks claiming that the bushfires we 'gods wrath' for the Australian government passing laws on same sex marriage.

Were there multiple remarks on social media? I thought there was his Instagram post setting out the eight categories of 'sin' that have been set out above.

Were there lots of posts before that?

[gingerjon]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Were there multiple remarks on social media? I thought there was his Instagram post setting out the eight categories of 'sin' that have been set out above.

Were there lots of posts before that?

There were at least two whilst we was in Super Rugby because the issue was that having made one post and been censured, he then made a second. Subsequently, he then decided that bushfires were caused by the legalisation of gay marriage.

Google is really helpful.

[Martyn Sadler]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

There were at least two whilst we was in Super Rugby because the issue was that having made one post and been censured, he then made a second. Subsequently, he then decided that bushfires were caused by bum sex.

Google is really helpful.

I suppose two indeed is a multiple of one.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Is anyone saying that?

If Folau breaches the terms of his contract by the content of his social media posts, then he will pay the price.

It's as simple as that and I can't imagine that anyone disputes it.

But the issue is whether he should be banned from playing Rugby League for making an Instagram post prior to returning to Rugby League that in itself was merely an expression of his beliefs, but which was picked up and magnified endlessly by people like Peter Fitzsimons of the SMH.

Yes, some people are saying that. There are plenty of people who feel that this is just a personal belief and he should be able to air it without punichment. In fact, Folau managed to fleece a load of people out of a load of money who believed that he shouldn't have been punished by the ARU.

[Martyn Sadler]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, some people are saying that. There are plenty of people who feel that this is just a personal belief and he should be able to air it without punichment. In fact, Folau managed to fleece a load of people out of a load of money who believed that he shouldn't have been punished by the ARU.

He is allowed to air his beliefs, but if he has a contract with a sporting body that explicitly prevents him from airing those beliefs on social media, then he will have breached his contract.

So he has to decide whether the cost of losing his contract is a price worth paying for exercising his freedom to air those beliefs.

While playing for the Catalans he seems to have decided that it isn't.

[Dunbar]

Great bit of business by Falou then.

1. Post his beliefs on social media and get fired by the ARU.

2. Raise a bunch of money from people believing that he is fighting for their rights to freedom of religious expression to pay his legal fees

3. Settle out of court with the ARU, apologise for his remarks as part of the settlement and keep all the money

4. Join the Catalans on a new contract and keep his beliefs to himself

And it is for this that I have no respect for him.  If you believe that something is worth fighting for, and you convince others to give you money to fight, then fight for it... don't settle and let them all down without a hint of regret.

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

He is allowed to air his beliefs, but if he has a contract with a sporting body that explicitly prevents him from airing those beliefs on social media, then he will have breached his contract.

So he has to decide whether the cost of losing his contract is a price worth paying for exercising his freedom to air those beliefs.

While playing for the Catalans he seems to have decided that it isn't.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this post. It doesn't relate to my post, which doesn't relate to his conduct at Catalans.

[Martyn Sadler]

13 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure of the relevance of this post. It doesn't relate to my post, which doesn't relate to his conduct at Catalans.

You said: "There are plenty of people who feel that this is just a personal belief and he should be able to air it without punichment (sic)."

I made the point in reply to your comment that he is entitled to air his belief without punishment, but that if he breaches a contract in doing so he will then suffer the consequences.

I'm not sure why you thought my response didn't relate to your post.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

You said: "There are plenty of people who feel that this is just a personal belief and he should be able to air it without punichment (sic)."

I made the point in reply to your comment that he is entitled to air his belief without punishment, but that if he breaches a contract in doing so he will then suffer the consequences.

I'm not sure why you thought my response didn't relate to your post.

Ok I'll phrase it better, I have no idea why you made that point. We know that, I made the exact point myself about employment two or three posts ago. 

Some people think you should be able to say what you want without losing your job. See the whole outrage about being cancelled. 

[fighting irish]

I removed this at the request of gingerjon

[Exiled Wiganer]

54 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Ok I'll phrase it better, I have no idea why you made that point. We know that, I made the exact point myself about employment two or three posts ago. 

Some people think you should be able to say what you want without losing your job. See the whole outrage about being cancelled. 

As it happens, I am not sure how entitled he is to air - and air here means keep on the front page of his social media followed by many thousands, so it is high profile and repeated - these views. That will be a matter for the relevant bodies, and indeed over time, I expect the criminal systems of individual countries to rule on. This is not a one off “oh, that’s just Israel” - these comments have more exposure than if he had put them into his published biography. His contents clearly espouse views that would, if acted upon, contravene equalities legislation across many countries, targeting groups whose “view” leads to their being put in prison or hospital in many countries. The scale, its ongoing nature and the virulence of these views take them into uncharted territory. 

[gingerjon]

On 04/02/2021 at 12:46, fighting irish said:

Post deleted

That is all fair and I accept your criticism. I was just trying to be childish (and succeeded) but I'll edit my post if you could also edit the quote of it.

[fighting irish]

22 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

That is all fair and I accept your criticism. I was just trying to be childish (and succeeded) but I'll edit my post if you could also edit the quote of it.

yes ok

Its gone

 

[jacobus]

4 hours ago, Davo5 said:

If your signing Whare from Penrith he won’t be that much of a loss.

he was always to replace Mead though so we will still be one centre down. 

[Martyn Sadler]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

I was just trying to be childish (and succeeded).

That is clearly one of your strengths. 

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

That is clearly one of your strengths. 

We are on a forum dedicated to cheering on grown men who are paid actual money to chase a funny shaped ball around a field for two hours whilst other folk cheer them on because they happen to wearing the right coloured shirt. It wouldn't do to take oneself too seriously.

[BrisbaneRhino]

Re contracts, its pretty obvious that for all their huffing and puffing, the standard ARU contract was absolutely useless when push came to shove. I suspect it just covered general themes like bringing the sport into disrepute and adhering to social media guidelines which are often vague as well. On top of that I doubt in their haste to sort Folau out that they followed their own HR policies in terms of verbal and written warnings re conduct.

Should also point out that here in Australia people have lost their 'normal' jobs for spouting stuff on the internet - not just hateful things. For example, this woman got fired for tweeting anti-government things on immigration when she worked for the government, even though she used an alias (in fact one of the rulings of the court in this case was that being 'anonymous' was no protection:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-07/high-court-free-speech-public-service--banerji-decision/11377990

 

[Eddie]

5 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

 

Should also point out that here in Australia people have lost their 'normal' jobs for spouting stuff on the internet - not just hateful things. For example, this woman got fired for tweeting anti-government things on immigration when she worked for the government, even though she used an alias (in fact one of the rulings of the court in this case was that being 'anonymous' was no protection:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-07/high-court-free-speech-public-service--banerji-decision/11377990

 

It’s the same in the UK, the phrase ‘it’s a free country’ no longer applies, everybody is expected to agree with a a fixed set of ‘liberal’ ideologies, and by liberal I mean liberal as long as you agree with them. As it happens I do agree with some of them, I just think people should have the right to think and choose what they say themselves. Hence I don’t think Folau should be banned from playing rugby, or forced to be ‘educated’. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

It’s the same in the UK, the phrase ‘it’s a free country’ no longer applies, everybody is expected to agree with a a fixed set of ‘liberal’ ideologies, and by liberal I mean liberal as long as you agree with them. As it happens I do agree with some of them, I just think people should have the right to think and choose what they say themselves. Hence I don’t think Folau should be banned from playing rugby, or forced to be ‘educated’. 

Do you really think that though? 

Do you think people should be able to be state things like:

Black people are  ***********

Women are *********

Disabled people are *********

Homosexuals are *******

******= whatever offensive/obscene things people want to write. 

Going back to my earlier post I think it is right that these things risk repercussions in 3 areas - public criticism, legal repercussions and employment repercussions. 

I always find it odd when liberals are criticised, because when we look literally at what you are championing, it is the right to abuse vulnerable people. 

[Dr Tim Whatley]

16 hours ago, gingerjon said:

We are on a forum dedicated to cheering on grown men who are paid actual money to chase a funny shaped ball around a field for two hours whilst other folk cheer them on because they happen to wearing the right coloured shirt. It wouldn't do to take oneself too seriously.

 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Dr Tim Whatley said:

 

A good reference. I'd forgotten the Seinfeld bit. (Which is gold, Jerry, gold).

[Dunbar]

As we discuss whether Folau is 'allowed' to say what he said, let's remember the fuss was not just what he said but how he said it.

If he had been interviewed or even if he had posted on social media something like "As a Christian, my faith teaches me the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman and that the act of homosexuality is a sin" then I am sure there would be a whole lot less fuss.  What he chose instead was a very direct "Hell Awaits" message.

He was employed by (and was an ambassador for) an organization that had a stated policy of inclusivity and here he was telling people in very direct messages on social media that some of the people who may want to be involved in Rugby Union in Australia that they will spend an eternity burning in a fire because of who they are.

I am not sure why anyone would think that type of action wouldn't have consequences.  If you sign up to a contract for an organisation with a stated policy if inclusivity and openness and take the money then you need to behave as that contract states.  If you want to post everything you want on social media without consequence then have the decency to resign first.

He was even asked to stop and chose not to.

[Rupert Prince]

Does Hell really exist?  If I say to someone, "Go to Hell", will that someone worry?   Why should this word worry so many people who themselves regard Hell as a fantasy, a non existent place? 

In other but related news, a black Christian actress is suing her agent and her theatre employer for wrongful emoloyment and defamation because she refused to play a lesbian character. 

[DavidM]

20 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Does Hell really exist?  If I say to someone, "Go to Hell", will that someone worry?   Why should this word worry so many people who themselves regard Hell as a fantasy, a non existent place? 

In other but related news, a black Christian actress is suing her agent and her theatre employer for wrongful emoloyment and defamation because she refused to play a lesbian character. 

Yes it’s in Norway . Full of dodgy characters . And yes it does freeze over.

[graveyard johnny]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Does Hell really exist?  

maybe not, but fryston does and i can't see it been any worse than that