Where do we think Rugby League will be in 5 years time?

[Bondi Cannon]

18 hours ago, langpark said:

The beauty of the term 'coconut' was that it would include the NZ maoris along with the pacific islanders.  No other term can do that, not 'pacific islanders', nor 'polynesians'.  But yeah, it's not a word I would use if I didn't know the person well enough.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I do agree with you, the rise of these pacific nations, a large percentage of it has been down to luck and also, let's not forget the Jason Taumalolo defection, which single-handedly changed the face of RLWC2017 and arguably international RL as a whole.

I do give the Aussies credit for being more accommodating recently, with PNG Hunters in the Qld Cup and the Fiji team joining the NSW system, for example.  But so many Aussies just cannot grasp the sheer size of Europe, compared to Oceania.  Here are a few raw facts;

Australia and PNG (two countries where RL is (almost) the top sport) have a combined population of 33 million.  Which is 80% of the entire Oceania population (41.5 million).

England, or more specifically Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cumbria (where RL is more popular, but still not top sport) has a combined population of 7.5 million, out of 73 million (UK & Ireland), just over 10%.

So obviously, it's much easier for the 'fish in the puddle' than the 'little fish in the ocean'.

Sorry I can’t let this post slide without saying anything. There’s no ‘beauty’ to the term coconut. It’s racist and offensive. I live in NZ and while I am not of Island origin I know plenty of people who are and they would all be very upset if I called them a coconut. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

22 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

 

As for my ' advice ' , well if you don't give ' advice ' or opinions to over 18yr olds , what are you doing on here ?

Ha! There are plenty of people here who probably have t-shirts over 18 years old! 

[GUBRATS]

37 minutes ago, Bondi Cannon said:

Sorry I can’t let this post slide without saying anything. There’s no ‘beauty’ to the term coconut. It’s racist and offensive. I live in NZ and while I am not of Island origin I know plenty of people who are and they would all be very upset if I called them a coconut. 

That is the reason I didn't use it , I disagree with Langpark as in my experience ( yes a long time ago ) it was a reference used only for the people from the small islands ( Samoa,Tonga,Cook island, Fiji ) , maybe the Aussies used it differently , but that wouldn't surprise me 

My dad worked at Feltex Carpets in Lower Hutt back in 75 , he was the lone ' pommie ' , the islanders initially referred to him as ' honky ' or ' whitey ' , not in a malicious way , usually just showing off to the female workers there , he became great friends with some of them , mostly the Samoans ( they looked after him when going for after work drinks ) and learned some of their language , as I put earlier , there are no more friendly , generous people than the islanders 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

22 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

 

As for my ' advice ' , well if you don't give ' advice ' or opinions to over 18yr olds , what are you doing on here ?

Ha! There are plenty of people here who probably have t-shirts over 18 years old! 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Ha! There are plenty of people here who probably have t-shirts over 18 years old! 

My dad still gives me advice , and I've just turned 60 , rarely do I take it

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

22 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

 

As for my ' advice ' , well if you don't give ' advice ' or opinions to over 18yr olds , what are you doing on here ?

Ha! There are plenty of people here who probably have t-shirts over 18 years old! 

 

22 hours ago, The Rocket said:

 

Credit where credits due though those Pacific nations may well stayed at the level they were 5 years ago had not tournaments like the Pacific Cup been pushed a bit harder. That bit of promotion may well have been what led blokes like Fifita to play for those countries and convince others to follow. I think the real test of how committed the NRL are to these countries is if they are prepared to subsidise their match payments instead of just relying on these blokes playing for pride. That would be the real test. 

What have been the attendances over the last few years for Pacific Island vs Aus/NZ games? 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

22 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

 

 

 

22 hours ago, The Rocket said:

 

Credit where credits due though those Pacific nations may well stayed at the level they were 5 years ago had not tournaments like the Pacific Cup been pushed a bit harder. That bit of promotion may well have been what led blokes like Fifita to play for those countries and convince others to follow. I think the real test of how committed the NRL are to these countries is if they are prepared to subsidise their match payments instead of just relying on these blokes playing for pride. That would be the real test. 

What have been the attendances over the last few years for Pacific Island vs Aus/NZ games? 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

My dad still gives me advice , and I've just turned 60 , rarely do I take it

Probably for the best.... As TRLF members we know everything about everything anyway 

[langpark]

2 hours ago, Bondi Cannon said:

Sorry I can’t let this post slide without saying anything. There’s no ‘beauty’ to the term coconut. It’s racist and offensive. I live in NZ and while I am not of Island origin I know plenty of people who are and they would all be very upset if I called them a coconut. 

Fair enough, I knew somebody would.

Political correctness aside for a minute, I was just making a point that it's the only word I know of, that covers maoris and islanders (and yes, that is how it was used in Australia, in my experience).  Like I say, not a word I would go around saying in public, or to strangers, but it did get used a lot in smaller circles, especially in rugby league matches.  I remember playing with other maori or islander guys that would use it, when trying to quickly describe one of our opponents during half-time talks, without having the luxury of sitting and analysing the bloke's DNA to see if he is in fact of Samoan, Tongan or NZ maori descent.  Plus, the lines become even more blurred now as many that grew up in Aus and NZ now are a mixture of the above mentioned.  Hopefully a more PC term will emerge to keep everyone happy

[langpark]

8 hours ago, The Rocket said:

* 2009 Pacific Cup History - NRL

* Pacific Cup.  Wikipedia

* Samoa vs. Tonga in Rugby League

* Rugby League Samoa - Our History - RL Samoa.

These articles touch on all the nations that played and gives an insight into what was quite a rivalry. Even if unbeknown to us.

Cheers, interesting, a bit light on detail though.  A question I have wondered about for a long time is; When did Tonga last play an actual international match in Tonga?  I don't think it has happened for years if not decades.

[Mr Frisky]

15 hours ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

In Australasia the game will go from strength to strength. The NRL will remian a vibrant competition in the Eastern States and International League between Aus, NZ and the Pacific Islands will gain in credibility albiet that all sides will be drawn from NRL clubs.

In the Northern Hemisphere, the game will have contracted in on itself only about six clubs will not be part-time and those youngsters who opt for league over other sports will either migrate to Union or the NRL at an early age. Money in the game will be even less than today and the lament on TRL will be that the game has gone back to circa 1991 without the star names that were around then.

The most damaging consequence of the decline in the northgern hemisphere will be the fuelling of voices down under who point out its a "secondary" game in the UK and the NRL could do an AFL and stay an Aussie sport with a poynesian twist. A view that may gian increasing traction.

But just about every NRL club are in debt, don't own their own grounds so all there eggs seem to be in a TV contract  shaped basket.

We know SL is behind the NRL but clubs like Leeds, Saints and Wire are far better run than most NRL teams. Always remember Gareth Ellis saying when he left Leeds where the players were treated like Premier League footballers and went to the NRL he had to wash his own kit.....

The main problem is the NRL is just about maxed out for expansion and commercial opportunities as Australia is out of the way with a small population- the UK and France offer far more potential but its just the mismanagement that holds the game back in the Northern Hemisphere.

[unapologetic pedant]

10 hours ago, langpark said:

Now these old test matches you speak of, I don't know anything about them, please tell me more.  

The one I recall reading about was the 1992 Pacific Cup final between Western Samoa and Tonga at Carlaw Park which went to two periods of extra time. There were hints in the reporting that the heightened tension of such a tight affair was feeding into off-field gang-related divisions between the respective Islander groups.

Could have been more that the NZRL were concerned about the consequences for the Kiwis, if players began inclining more towards their heritage nation. There was a similarly ludicrous over-reaction by the Auckland police to Tongan street celebrations during the 2017 WC.

[Bostik Bailey]

Look back at this board, in 2015, 2010, 2005 2000 and 1995 and see the exact same issues being discussed. Nothing will change as long as the Yorkshire mafia hang on to power. See BDO and Scottish Football for similar examples of sports governing bodies being run for the sole purpose of lining the pockets of Blazer wearing gravy train passengers.

[unapologetic pedant]

4 hours ago, Bondi Cannon said:

Sorry I can’t let this post slide without saying anything. There’s no ‘beauty’ to the term coconut. It’s racist and offensive. I live in NZ and while I am not of Island origin I know plenty of people who are and they would all be very upset if I called them a coconut. 

There`s a YouTube channel called TheCoconetTV, which is clearly run by and for Polynesians. They often have RL-related items.

I agree with you though, it`s a term those of European origin should avoid using.

[langpark]

  

21 minutes ago, Bostik Bailey said:

Look back at this board, in 2015, 2010, 2005 2000 and 1995 and see the exact same issues being discussed. Nothing will change as long as the Yorkshire mafia hang on to power. See BDO and Scottish Football for similar examples of sports governing bodies being run for the sole purpose of lining the pockets of Blazer wearing gravy train passengers.

I am convinced that most RL fans are guilty of seeing the world through ######-coloured glasses.  As far as I am aware, participation numbers are the highest they have ever been and we have seen steady growth over the past 20 years.  At a quick search, here is some evidence:

2015:  Increase of 9,900 reported on previous year:  https://www.rugby-league.com/article/33357/participation-increases-are-testament-to

2017:  Year-on-year increases since 2012 confirmed as well as a 40% increase over the last 10 years:  https://www.totalrl.com/exclusive-rfl-issue-response-participation-figures-sport-england/

2020:  RFL reports increase in participation in 2019, from 102,304 to 109,501:  https://www.rugby-league.com/article/56906/rfl-confirms-return-to-profit-and-increased-participation-in-

So please, can a highly-qualified armchair-critic please tell me what I am missing here?  Where is the evidence that the game is dying??

[The Rocket]

2 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

 

 

What have been the attendances over the last few years for Pacific Island vs Aus/NZ games? 

*  2008   Penrith Stadium   11 787

*  2010   Parra. Stadium    11 308

*  2013   Penrith Stadium   10 143

*  2015   Robina Stadium G.C. 12 356

*  2016   Parra. Stadium  18 225

*  2017  Waikato Stadium N.Z.  18 156

*  2018   Campbelltown Stadium   17 800

I think ground capacity in both Tonga and Samoa is considerably less than what they can hold in Oz and N.Z. Ticket pricing may also be an issue. Given the popularity of the game over here I dare say there was plenty tuning in back home.

I suppose the main point here though is that this hasn`t happened overnight, I think I saw elsewhere crowds of around 5 000 at games in the 90`s. So there is a really healthy trajectory there. No wonder more and more players are coming on board.

At the end of the day this isn`t about point scoring who`s doing development better than the other, this is a great news story that`s probably been brewing for a while and hopefully RL will reap the rewards at this WC when these Nations turn on a show and bring the house down. It would be so good if at whatever Town there based at could really adopt them, as their second team of course, and replicate a bit of that colour and passion their supporters at home bring to their games.

[unapologetic pedant]

11 hours ago, The Rocket said:

So is it totally unreasonable to say that todays current situation is the culmination of 50 years of Pacific Cup Tests, 50 years of those teams being around, certainly invisible to us but maybe not to them.

Petro Civoniceva, Jarryd Hayne perhaps were used in this manner. 

The Pacific Cup facilitated the diaspora-inspired creation of embryonic RL organisational bodies, but more important communally was the natural fit with the game. Like most social phenomena it`s more linked to social class than ethnicity. From the 60s onwards, a lot of Polynesians who migrated to NZ would have a RU background, but in an Auckland setting they gravitated more to League, particularly the inner-city clubs of Richmond and Ponsonby. 

In Aus, with less of a RU complicating factor, it`s an even stronger trend. Some Aussie Islanders have moved directly from the islands, but a substantial demographic process of the past 10 to 20 years which hasn`t received much attention is the movement of Maori and Islanders from NZ to Aus. I have no evidence to back this up, but my sense is that these trans-Tasman migrants are disproportionately from RL families.

BTW, I think Noa Nadruku was the first Fijian to really stir interest back on Fiji.

[unapologetic pedant]

57 minutes ago, Bostik Bailey said:

Nothing will change as long as the Yorkshire mafia hang on to power. 

You`re asking to wake up with a whippet`s head in your bed.

[The Rocket]

5 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The Pacific Cup facilitated the diaspora-inspired creation of embryonic RL organisational bodies, but more important communally was the natural fit with the game. Like most social phenomena it`s more linked to social class than ethnicity. From the 60s onwards, a lot of Polynesians who migrated to NZ would have a RU background, but in an Auckland setting they gravitated more to League, particularly the inner-city clubs of Richmond and Ponsonby. 

In Aus, with less of a RU complicating factor, it`s an even stronger trend. Some Aussie Islanders have moved directly from the islands, but a substantial demographic process of the past 10 to 20 years which hasn`t received much attention is the movement of Maori and Islanders from NZ to Aus. I have no evidence to back this up, but my sense is that these trans-Tasman migrants are disproportionately from RL families.

BTW, I think Noa Nadruku was the first Fijian to really stir interest back on Fiji.

Closer economic ties and relaxed laws around work visas means that Kiwis are in our top 3 or 4 immigrant groups every year. I think there is nearly a million Kiwi born people living in Australia.

I was going to put Noa`s name next to Petro`s as I had the same inkling, but just wasn`t certain. 

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The statement, "And club volunteers in some of the country's most deprived communities fear it could be a devastating blow to the health and welfare of a generation of youngsters, particularly across the north of England heartlands" is right in line with what Tony Collins and Sean McGuire have discussed in their interviews: the game's unhealthy dependence on areas and towns which are economically disadvantaged/deprived.

And your solution would be?

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And your solution would be?

Rely on bigger less economically deprived places to support those less wealthy, its essentially the basis of most nation states.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

And your solution would be?

As I've said before the game needs money if it's going to avoid falling even further behind soccer and RU in Britain, and a lot of it.  As its traditional clubs and league structure are rooted in smallish towns where the kind of money necessary to support big time major pro sport can't be accessed because it isn't there and isn't ever going to go there, that money can only be brought into the game via a whole new league set up fit for that purpose which has its franchises in the sort of places where it can be accessed.

In view of the game's image problem in Britain which other posters have mentioned plenty often (i.e. most Brits don't even know two versions of rugby exist and most of the remainder who do look down on RL because they see it as small time and downmarket), such a league would probably need to re-brand the sport to overcome that obstacle and it would have to ensure that newbies who come to check it out have a great time when they do and want to come back for more.  It would have to make whatever tweaks are needed in its presentation of the game to be a success and it would need to deliver a great on-field product.

Absent that, all I can envision is continuing slow decline until John Kear's prediction of there not being any pro RL in Britain and all that's left is a feeder/development setup for RU and the NRL comes to pass.

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

As I've said before the game needs money if it's going to avoid falling even further behind soccer and RU in Britain, and a lot of it.  As its traditional clubs and league structure are rooted in smallish towns where the kind of money necessary to support big time major pro sport can't be accessed because it isn't there and isn't ever going to go there, that money can only be brought into the game via a whole new league set up fit for that purpose which has its franchises in the sort of places where it can be accessed.

In view of the game's image problem in Britain which other posters have mentioned plenty often (i.e. most Brits don't even know two versions of rugby exist and most of the remainder who do look down on RL because they see it as small time and downmarket), such a league would probably need to re-brand the sport to overcome that obstacle and it would have to ensure that newbies who come to check it out have a great time when they do and want to come back for more.  It would have to make whatever tweaks are needed in its presentation of the game to be a success and it would need to deliver a great on-field product.

Absent that, all I can envision is continuing slow decline until John Kear's prediction of there not being any pro RL in Britain and all that's left is a feeder/development setup for RU and the NRL comes to pass.

 

[Harry Stottle]

35 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Rely on bigger less economically deprived places to support those less wealthy, its essentially the basis of most nation states.

I asked the question on the back of the statement that the lack of Rugby League at the amateur club level was having an adverse effect on the local communities and especially the kids, I am a firm believer that if professional clubs did not have a presence in some towns were the game is played therefore taking the focal point of the game away that it would also effect the amateur game in those areas.

So, having a reliance on less economically deprived places  as you say, would to me obviously mean doing a multiple of the North American variance of financing  teams and importing player's to get the game off the ground in those new places (where exactly would all the players come from? perhaps already existing teams) before getting the amateur game established and producing professionals.

It's a viscous circle Tommy, I have been witness to the amateur side of our sport in decline for a long long time now, our sport depends solely on the success of our amateur game in those financially deprived places, the governing body of our sport should be doing all it can to boost it along, the consequences of not doing would be unimaginable.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

As I've said before the game needs money if it's going to avoid falling even further behind soccer and RU in Britain, and a lot of it.  As its traditional clubs and league structure are rooted in smallish towns where the kind of money necessary to support big time major pro sport can't be accessed because it isn't there and isn't ever going to go there, that money can only be brought into the game via a whole new league set up fit for that purpose which has its franchises in the sort of places where it can be accessed.

In view of the game's image problem in Britain which other posters have mentioned plenty often (i.e. most Brits don't even know two versions of rugby exist and most of the remainder who do look down on RL because they see it as small time and downmarket), such a league would probably need to re-brand the sport to overcome that obstacle and it would have to ensure that newbies who come to check it out have a great time when they do and want to come back for more.  It would have to make whatever tweaks are needed in its presentation of the game to be a success and it would need to deliver a great on-field product.

Absent that, all I can envision is continuing slow decline until John Kear's prediction of there not being any pro RL in Britain and all that's left is a feeder/development setup for RU and the NRL comes to pass.

The only way that could ever happen is to improve what we already have, i.e. making the game stronger and more productive where it is presently being played, only then can your vision even be contemplated.