What might have been

[fighting irish]

15 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Maybe that was the origin of the “French flair” that union commentators would wet themselves about. It’s quite funny here because high school union in Canada is pretty open and attractive, at least as union goes, until they hit grade 12 and the coaches really take over (trophies to win and university scholarships to earn). After that it becomes 10 man rugby, with the ball occasionally finding its way out to the wings, and the winning teams are the ones who are technically strong in scrums and line outs, with the successful players those who excel there.

'twas ever thus old lad.

Boring, boring, boring.

Yawn by name, yawn by nature.

(Please see my rallying call in Your RL Regrets thread?)

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, fighting irish said:

'twas ever thus old lad.

Boring, boring, boring.

Yawn by name, yawn by nature.

(Please see my rallying call in Your RL Regrets thread?)

Well fighting that should seal its cross code fate!

[17 stone giant]

21 hours ago, Oxford said:

You said that it was spread across two sports

Yes, which is true. Lomu played rugby union and therefore at that moment in time, he couldn't play league. Meninga played league and therefore at that moment in time, he couldn't play union. Great 'rugby players' were and still are split between the codes.

21 hours ago, Oxford said:

as if it was in short supply and the same kind of talent, and I disagree with both ideas.

No, I didn't say anything about the supply or the same kind of talent. This is something you've invented to argue about. You're only disagreeing with something that you've invented me saying.

It's really not a difficult concept. This thread is about players who were considered great/excellent players in rugby union and people were musing about how things might have been had these players been available for rugby league. Would Lomu have improved the Kiwis? Would Blanco have improved France? Would Ieuan Evans have improved Wales? Etc. We all saw that Jonathan Davies and others like Offiah, Gibbs, Bentley, etc. improved RL after moving from RU, so the likelihood is that there are others great RU players that would have done so had they also switched. At the same time, there are RL players who have improved RU when they switched from RL - Robinson, Rogers, Sailor, Tuquri, etc.

All I have ever said is that, in an imaginary world, I would have liked to have seen the very best available go head to head in both codes.

 

 

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

All I have ever said is that, in an imaginary world, I would have liked to have seen the very best available go head to head in both codes.

A perfectly reasonable thing to say.  Taking the history and emotion out of it, we are all left speculating about who is better and who could play each code.  Personally, I agree that a game involving the likes of Beauden Barrett, Semi Radradra, Owen Farrell, James Tedesco and more would be great.

As would a New Zealand vs. Australia game where all the best rugby players from both sides of Tasman were available... although perhaps a frightening thought for British fans.

[Cumbrian Mackem]

7 hours ago, The Art of Hand and Foot said:

Ironically, It was. If I remember rightly, oldham let him go when bob lindner was signed. I think only 4 overseas players were allowed at that time.

Guy had legs like tree trunks!!!

[Cumbrian Mackem]

21 hours ago, thebrewxi said:

Just as an aside, we need to remember that players like Campese, Botha, Botica, Zinzan Brooke, Rob Louwe and John Kirwan they were all player professional rugby anyway, before any of them chose to play, or not play, league. I guess this means all these southern hemisphere players were potential targets. I guess no one could afford Campese though.

Zinzan Brooke was supposed to sign for Graham lowe’s manly sea Eagles along with Matthew ridge.

[thebrewxi]

I'd love to know how much a year people like Brooke, Kirwan, Green were 'earning'. Campese famously said he was the first millionaire rugby player, bankrolled by Berlusconi. How did that compare with what Hanley, Edwards etc were earning at the same time.?

[Oxford]

3 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Great 'rugby players' were and still are split between the codes.

I think the problem between what you said and the conclusions I drew from it are as moot as the idea that great players would be good at both and that the combat between them worth watching in either sport.

Meninga   was a monster so he would probably have had a physical presence in ping pong. Maybe we could start a thread about what people like Gus Risman would've brought to tiddlywinks!

[17 stone giant]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

I think the problem between what you said and the conclusions I drew from it are as moot as the idea that great players would be good at both and that the combat between them worth watching in either sport.

I'm not aware that anyone has said that every great player would be great in the other code. The thread is people pondering those players that they think might have been. We know that it's possible, because we've seen the likes of Jonathan Davies, Jason Robinson and others do it. It's just a fun thread for people to imagine what it would have been like if certain great RU players had tried their luck at RL. If that's not something you wish to do, you're probably best off in another thread.

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

Meninga was a monster so he would probably have had a physical presence in ping pong. Maybe we could start a thread about what people like Gus Risman would've brought to tiddlywinks!

So you think that pondering whether Meninga would be a great table tennis player, and Gus Risman a great tiddlywink player, is the same thing as me pondering whether Meninga might have been good at rugby union, or others doing likewise with Jonah Lomu and RL?

[bobbruce]

On 02/02/2021 at 15:35, 17 stone giant said:

 

Would David Campese have perhaps made the Kangaroo squad in 1990? Would Guscott have been in the GB team? 

[ehbandit]

On 02/02/2021 at 15:35, 17 stone giant said:

Some great names being mentioned. It would have been very interesting to see how they would have done in rugby league.

As someone who enjoys both codes, it does frustrate me a bit that the talent in 'rugby as a whole' is split between the two. It would be nice to be able to wave a magic wand and make all the best players available.

Would David Campese have perhaps made the Kangaroo squad in 1990? Would Guscott have been in the GB team? etc. I'm sure a few of the French RU players would have improved their RL team - e.g. Blanco, Sella.

Would David Campese have perhaps made the Kangaroo squad in 1990? Would Guscott have been in the GB team?
NO

[17 stone giant]

2 hours ago, bobbruce said:

Laugh it up, fuzzball.

Of course the truth is that you can't know for certain the answer to either of the questions. Maybe some people would have thought the same about Offiah and Davies when they were playing union, but they did ok for GB.

Apparently both of them had offers from RL clubs, so I think I'll trust the knowledge of the people at those clubs instead of your arrogant opinion.

Just to be clear, it's fine if you think they wouldn't have made the teams. That's a valid opinion. But to laugh at the question as if I'm asking if Jimmy Crankie could make the Kangaroo or GB teams, just makes you look like a closed minded fool. But then that happens sometimes - I mean, didn't some of the St Helens board once describe Offiah as an "uncoordinated clown"? How did that turn out?

[BrisbaneRhino]

Quality threequarters would generally do well in either code if they switch.  Full back and halfbacks are quite different in RU to RL - the union halfback basically plays where a league hooker does. As for forwards, there's limited overlap, just the 7s and 8s in RU really being comparable to RL.

It helped when signing RU players to actually look at the way they played union. Gallagher was a relative flop (don't start about the spear tackle etc - he was never, ever going to be as good in RL as he was at RU) because his game was based on things that worked in RU but not league.  By contrast Doug Laughton noticed that Craig Innes looked like an RL player whilst he was in union. 

As for some of the forwards, what exactly were Leeds and Sts thinking when signing the respective lumps of lard that were Dai Young and Stuart Evans? Who in St Helens thought the hopeless Mike Carrington (a winger I know!) would ever be a good player? 

Personally I look at the English RU outside backs and quite the opposite of the 80s many of them look far better (and often bigger) athletes than RL has produced.  Suggesting most of them couldn't hack it at RL is daft.

[bobbruce]

6 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Laugh it up, fuzzball.

Of course the truth is that you can't know for certain the answer to either of the questions. Maybe some people would have thought the same about Offiah and Davies when they were playing union, but they did ok for GB.

Apparently both of them had offers from RL clubs, so I think I'll trust the knowledge of the people at those clubs instead of your arrogant opinion.

Just to be clear, it's fine if you think they wouldn't have made the teams. That's a valid opinion. But to laugh at the question as if I'm asking if Jimmy Crankie could make the Kangaroo or GB teams, just makes you look like a closed minded fool. But then that happens sometimes - I mean, didn't some of the St Helens board once describe Offiah as an "uncoordinated clown"? How did that turn out?

I laugh because of the arrogance of the question it’s like me asking if the 2003 England RU team had signed Stuart Fielden would they be a better team. I won’t get into the rest of your ###### because to be honest it’s on the wrong part of the forum. 

[fighting irish]

8 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Laugh it up, fuzzball.

Of course the truth is that you can't know for certain the answer to either of the questions. Maybe some people would have thought the same about Offiah and Davies when they were playing union, but they did ok for GB.

Apparently both of them had offers from RL clubs, so I think I'll trust the knowledge of the people at those clubs instead of your arrogant opinion.

Just to be clear, it's fine if you think they wouldn't have made the teams. That's a valid opinion. But to laugh at the question as if I'm asking if Jimmy Crankie could make the Kangaroo or GB teams, just makes you look like a closed minded fool. But then that happens sometimes - I mean, didn't some of the St Helens board once describe Offiah as an "uncoordinated clown"? How did that turn out?

Who is this Jimmy Crankie and more's the point, can we trust him? Are you sure, he's not just making himself available because no-one else wants him and won't just bug ger off back home as soon as a better offer comes in?

[Dunbar]

There is simply no telling who would or wouldn't be a success in another code until they try it.

Who would have thought this skinny kid would have been one the best Rugby League players of his generation.

[Dunbar]

I always thought Frank Bunce looked like he would make a terrific League centre.  I would have liked to have seen him mixing it with the likes of Gene Miles and Mal Meninga.

 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I always thought Frank Bunce looked like he would make a terrific League centre.  I would have liked to have seen him mixing it with the likes of Gene Miles and Mal Meninga.

 

He was a quality player.

[Taniwha Warriors]

20 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

He was a quality player.

Even his midfield partner Walter Little wasnt that bad either. 

[Oxford]

16 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

 

So you think that pondering whether Meninga would be a great table tennis player, and Gus Risman a great tiddlywink player, is the same thing as me pondering whether Meninga might have been good at rugby union, or others doing likewise with Jonah Lomu and RL?

Yes and last time I looked I was allowed to, as well!

I think a lot more things about this too.

For example why hasn't this gone to the cross code nonsense where it clearly belongs?

[Southerner80]

21 hours ago, thebrewxi said:

I'd love to know how much a year people like Brooke, Kirwan, Green were 'earning'. Campese famously said he was the first millionaire rugby player, bankrolled by Berlusconi. How did that compare with what Hanley, Edwards etc were earning at the same time.?

I don't know figures however I get the impression Italian Club Rugby Union in the late 1980s early 90s looked after star players very well, probably in direct payments and business relationships too.

Campese would have been paid very well I'm sure.

It's quite telling how good Italy were at Union in 92-97 compared to today. They were professional ahead of the UK and Ireland by a few years.

As for Wigan, from what I remember reading, they paid out 2m a year in wadges in 1994 (and had some significant debts) which was alot in those days and is more than most SL clubs spend today so they could definitely have paid the stars very well.

Imo, Campese was probably on more money than RL players so to bring him over to Italy as they did not have to pay the whole squad well, and Italian clubs could probably get away with more creative accounting too than Wigan could.

[thebrewxi]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

Yes and last time I looked I was allowed to, as well!

I think a lot more things about this too.

For example why hasn't this gone to the cross code nonsense where it clearly belongs?

Is there a tiddlywinks forum. ? Cool!

[Oxford]

Just now, thebrewxi said:

Is there a tiddlywinks forum. ? Cool!

If there was it would be far more relevant and interesting than this cross sport drivel!

[thebrewxi]

2 minutes ago, Southerner80 said:

I don't know figures however I get the impression Italian Club Rugby Union in the late 1980s early 90s looked after star players very well, probably in direct payments and business relationships too.

Campese would have been paid very well I'm sure.

It's quite telling how good Italy were at Union in 92-97 compared to today. They were professional ahead of the UK and Ireland by a few years.

As for Wigan, from what I remember reading, they paid out 2m a year in wadges in 1994 (and had some significant debts) which was alot in those days and is more than most SL clubs spend today so they could definitely have paid the stars very well.

Imo, Campese was probably on more money than RL players so to bring him over to Italy as they did not have to pay the whole squad well, and Italian clubs could probably get away with more creative accounting too than Wigan could.

Apparently there was some tax dodge in Italy at the time. My favorite was Craig Green who gave up international rugby onion after their 87 Worlds Cup - openly admitting that it was becasue they didn't pay him enough; then signed the next week for Benneton! The whole thing back then was such a joke.

Taking the advice of another poster that this should be on the other forum if we continued to talk about kick and clap (although he did mention ping-pong, which I assume could also be a reference to Onion (ping pong of the aerial variety)) thought I'd throw in some other sports...

I read recently, somewhere, that Saints tried to sign Vinnie Jones? Does anyone remember that? 

And who remembers Dwayne Chambers?

[Dunbar]

19 minutes ago, Oxford said:

If there was it would be far more relevant and interesting than this cross sport drivel!

Would be great if this chat was moved to the cross code forum so you don't have to pop up every few minutes to tell us we shouldn't be talking about it.