Workington Sports Village

[Route66]

People will have to make compromises to gain a more modern facility a new main stand similar to the fc United one at borough park would be a massive step forward for both clubs,in league 1 derwent park is totally underused and if the sky central fund money is cut further could cause financial problems in the future. One manageable venue makes sense

[Derwent Parker]

1 hour ago, Route66 said:

People will have to make compromises to gain a more modern facility a new main stand similar to the fc United one at borough park would be a massive step forward for both clubs,in league 1 derwent park is totally underused and if the sky central fund money is cut further could cause financial problems in the future. One manageable venue makes sense

Totally Disagree

COMPROMISES

RE: the Planned 8000 capacity stadium cancelled by Jenkinson and his friends

Leaving DP was a big compromise Town were prepared to do - Do you think Reds would have left BP and moved into the same stadium if built at DP - not a cat in hells chance.

You state "a more modern facility a new main stand similar to the fc United one at borough park would be a massive step forward for both clubs"  Rubbish - 690 seats will kill of any promotion ambitions for Town.

And yes it is underused whilst we are in league one but i dont believe anyone plans to stay in that league for long, apart from maybe yourself?

So if that's all we can have, we can compromise and stay at DP until we can do the stand up, which apart from it showing its age it is still fully functional. And good enough to get us in super league if ambitions are met in the future.

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Some on here  seem to think there's a chance Town will grace Super League at some point in the future, others have a more realistic aim of competing in the top end of the Championship and being able to cement the club's position as a top 4 side.

None of us have a crystal ball, but we do have the benefit of hindsight, and Town's last 5 years brush with success is more than 25 years ago and bankrupted the club, and its fair to say something its never recovered from.

The reality is that unless a wealthy backer takes over the club and is prepared to lose millions a year in operating costs, then Cumbria will never have a Superleague side. That isn't me being negative, its being realistic in what's achievable for an area that only has 100k population within 20 miles of the ground.

I totally understand the emotional attachment to Derwent Park, its been the club's home since the 50's, but despite the best efforts of the directors, the maintenance on the current stadium is a millstone around the club's necks so would you not rather have a smaller modern stadium, which would attract more fans with better facilities that would allow the club to invest in players as opposed to repairing a bit of tin sheeting on the popular side?

I know what I would rather have    

[town4me]

3 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

 

I know what I would rather have    

Edited 1 hour ago by Death to the Rah Rah's

I take it you're  a big reds fan. Yeah it's all about opinions.  I suppose Having a small football stadium is better than nothing. Having a stadium used on match days only is what is needed to get away from as it spends most of the calender year sitting  idle and requiring upkeep and no potential  for more income. 

[Derwent Parker]

21 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Some on here  seem to think there's a chance Town will grace Super League at some point in the future, others have a more realistic aim of competing in the top end of the Championship and being able to cement the club's position as a top 4 side.

None of us have a crystal ball, but we do have the benefit of hindsight, and Town's last 5 years brush with success is more than 25 years ago and bankrupted the club, and its fair to say something its never recovered from.

The reality is that unless a wealthy backer takes over the club and is prepared to lose millions a year in operating costs, then Cumbria will never have a Superleague side. That isn't me being negative, its being realistic in what's achievable for an area that only has 100k population within 20 miles of the ground.

I totally understand the emotional attachment to Derwent Park, its been the club's home since the 50's, but despite the best efforts of the directors, the maintenance on the current stadium is a millstone around the club's necks so would you not rather have a smaller modern stadium, which would attract more fans with better facilities that would allow the club to invest in players as opposed to repairing a bit of tin sheeting on the popular side?

I know what I would rather have    

Yes, I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Yes, Some on here seem to think there's a chance Town will grace Super League at some point in the future, the others are REDS fans.

Correct, none of us have a crystal ball. 

As for Hindsight. Well hindsight is good at looking back and seeing where you made a mistake and where you done something good. It has absolutely nothing to do with the future.

You state "Town's last 5 years brush with success is more than 25 years ago and bankrupted the club" - 25 years ago was a different board, different owners, different sponsors/donors, different coach and different players - the only constant since then a some of the fans and DP.

The great chef Mr Gordon Ramsey states on his TV programmes he one went bankrupt but tried again and look at him now? good job he didn't come to you for advice - he would be working at MacDonald's now!

A wealthy backer is the easiest option but not the only option.

Yes you are being negative.

RE; emotional attachments to grounds - I think this applies to everyone but if you are honest it is not said by many if any Town fans - But has been said on many occasions by lots of REDS supporters and owners etc that they will never move to DP. Mr Dobie and a current councillor to name but 2.

Town fans would be happy to move - but we want to move to the type of stadium that we were promised as mentioned previous [a modern, good looking 8000k] stadium.

You state "the maintenance on the current stadium is a millstone around the club's necks" true sort of, but what would you do - should we pull down the grandstand instead of maintaining it?

I believe DP has been maintained to a good standard hence it still has a 10000k capacity the only problem is the open ends and the distance from pitch because of speedway track - which has been bettered slightly last year.

And if we cant have a stadium as originally promised and not just a new BP then I know what I would rather have.

 

 

[snoopdog]

On 05/02/2021 at 15:59, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Some on here  seem to think there's a chance Town will grace Super League at some point in the future, others have a more realistic aim of competing in the top end of the Championship and being able to cement the club's position as a top 4 side.

None of us have a crystal ball, but we do have the benefit of hindsight, and Town's last 5 years brush with success is more than 25 years ago and bankrupted the club, and its fair to say something its never recovered from.

The reality is that unless a wealthy backer takes over the club and is prepared to lose millions a year in operating costs, then Cumbria will never have a Superleague side. That isn't me being negative, its being realistic in what's achievable for an area that only has 100k population within 20 miles of the ground.

I totally understand the emotional attachment to Derwent Park, its been the club's home since the 50's, but despite the best efforts of the directors, the maintenance on the current stadium is a millstone around the club's necks so would you not rather have a smaller modern stadium, which would attract more fans with better facilities that would allow the club to invest in players as opposed to repairing a bit of tin sheeting on the popular side?

I know what I would rather have    

Agree compromise needs to happen an 8000 capacity stadium at this stage is not essential, however the minimum super League seating criteria must be met at this stage, if not your basically saying our ambitions are limited , this doesn't help the club with potential sponsors or supporter's.

Minimum standards with potential to extend when success dictates is the way forward. It's clear with the recruitment that the club are looking longer term to gain success so a stadium meeting minimum standards would be more than ample in the medium term.

[Derwent Parker]

16 hours ago, snoopdog said:

Agree compromise needs to happen an 8000 capacity stadium at this stage is not essential, however the minimum super League seating criteria must be met at this stage, if not your basically saying our ambitions are limited , this doesn't help the club with potential sponsors or supporter's.

Minimum standards with potential to extend when success dictates is the way forward. It's clear with the recruitment that the club are looking longer term to gain success so a stadium meeting minimum standards would be more than ample in the medium term.

Its embarrassing on here to see and hear the lack of ambition from some.

Lets See if we can build the smallest, cheapest sports village we can get because our teams are not good enough and we only have a small town.

Its pointless comparing any others [ i.e. York's or leigh's etc] because someone will just answer "York is bigger" yet they were in our league when our 8k stadium plans were still alive - they built their 8k stadium because they have ambition.

If we accept the minimum standards now - that will be it forever. 

The council reneged on the original plans. They will do the same if redevelopment is promised.

Promises to extend when required will not be carried out.

The council will have ownership of the new stadium, they will not pay for future redevelopment and REDS wont want it either.

Also if Super league lifted the minimum standards before you got there we would be stuck, but we would still be allowed to enter with DP

Also as DKW said previously it is cheaper to build the extra capacity at the start than at a future date.

DP has had world cup and other representative matches of late and could in the future, what has the smaller BP had of late.

Either build a proper stadium as promised or Stay at DP its safer for the club than going in to a small stadium.

[rockerlad]

2 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

Its embarrassing on here to see and hear the lack of ambition from some.

Lets See if we can build the smallest, cheapest sports village we can get because our teams are not good enough and we only have a small town.

Its pointless comparing any others [ i.e. York's or leigh's etc] because someone will just answer "York is bigger" yet they were in our league when our 8k stadium plans were still alive - they built their 8k stadium because they have ambition.

If we accept the minimum standards now - that will be it forever. 

The council reneged on the original plans. They will do the same if redevelopment is promised.

Promises to extend when required will not be carried out.

The council will have ownership of the new stadium, they will not pay for future redevelopment and REDS wont want it either.

Also if Super league lifted the minimum standards before you got there we would be stuck, but we would still be allowed to enter with DP

Also as DKW said previously it is cheaper to build the extra capacity at the start than at a future date.

DP has had world cup and other representative matches of late and could in the future, what has the smaller BP had of late.

Either build a proper stadium as promised or Stay at DP its safer for the club than going in to a small stadium.

why would reds not want future development? we have ambitions to get back into the conference north and then hopefully push on from there.

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

Both clubs have the ambition to play at the highest level, but let’s keep that ambition to realistic levels.

I totally agree that the number of seats if at all possible should be the minimum required for Superleague as it makes sense for both clubs, but the plans haven’t been released yet, the original article just said they were going to look at FC United’s ground, they may just be using that as a starting point in discussions and develop any ideas from there once Town and Reds have put in some input with their own requirements.

end of the day, neither Town or Reds can afford a stadium on their own so whatever’s built will be governed by the finances available.

the directors of both clubs will ultimately make what will be a once in a lifetime decision for a stadium that will have to last for the next 50 years

 

[snoopdog]

2 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

Its embarrassing on here to see and hear the lack of ambition from some.

Lets See if we can build the smallest, cheapest sports village we can get because our teams are not good enough and we only have a small town.

Its pointless comparing any others [ i.e. York's or leigh's etc] because someone will just answer "York is bigger" yet they were in our league when our 8k stadium plans were still alive - they built their 8k stadium because they have ambition.

If we accept the minimum standards now - that will be it forever. 

The council reneged on the original plans. They will do the same if redevelopment is promised.

Promises to extend when required will not be carried out.

The council will have ownership of the new stadium, they will not pay for future redevelopment and REDS wont want it either.

Also if Super league lifted the minimum standards before you got there we would be stuck, but we would still be allowed to enter with DP

Also as DKW said previously it is cheaper to build the extra capacity at the start than at a future date.

DP has had world cup and other representative matches of late and could in the future, what has the smaller BP had of late.

Either build a proper stadium as promised or Stay at DP its safer for the club than going in to a small stadium.

No lack of ambition from me just a realist, think you will be waiting a long time for any further international games at DP. 

[Derwent Parker]

5 minutes ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Both clubs have the ambition to play at the highest level, but let’s keep that ambition to realistic levels.

I totally agree that the number of seats if at all possible should be the minimum required for Superleague as it makes sense for both clubs, but the plans haven’t been released yet, the original article just said they were going to look at FC United’s ground, they may just be using that as a starting point in discussions and develop any ideas from there once Town and Reds have put in some input with their own requirements.

end of the day, neither Town or Reds can afford a stadium on their own so whatever’s built will be governed by the finances available.

the directors of both clubs will ultimately make what will be a once in a lifetime decision for a stadium that will have to last for the next 50 years

 

Pleased to hear you think both clubs are ambitious  but yet Again why aim for the minimum requirements.

The original 8k modern looking facility originally planned was not aimed at the minimum requirements and if it had not being used as a political football [excuse the pun] by the local councillors it would probably been built now.

Both clubs already have Stadiums of their own

 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

2 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

Both clubs already have Stadiums of their own

Im struggling to see your point here, are you suggesting that both clubs should stay as they are if an 8000 capacity stadium isn’t built?

the previously proposed stadium wasn’t viable, costs started at £15 Million, then jumped to £90 million over 50 years based on a hope that Sellafield would take office space, with as I understand it, release clauses built in after 15 years which could have left the rate payers having to foot the remaining rental payments if other tenants couldn’t be found.

Also the proposed match day hire costs would have made it unaffordable for both clubs, this was pointed out at the time when the proposal was first released so it’s all there in the public domain if you can be bothered to look for it.

So on to 2021, and there’s a huge opportunity to built a modern affordable Stadium for west Cumbria as part of a wider scheme to improve sports facilities in Workington.
 

You need to remember Allerdale has a population of only 100k, Town and Reds COMBINED  average attendance is probably around 1400 paying supporters, so that’s less than 2% of the population using the current facilities, but the other 98% who have little to no interest in either club will have to pay towards it in their council tax.

The total population of Allerdale is about the same size as Keighley, Oldham has 250k population and both examples above are close to inner cities with an even bigger population, coupled with more industry meaning there’s more potential sponsors.

In Cumbria we have Sellafield and a small handful of other companies with employees of over 500, so opportunities are very limited. Again that isn’t me being negative I’m just stating the facts!

if the stadium ends up being circa 5000 capacity then that means Town would have to increase their crowds by 600% to sell out the ground which is no mean feat in a time when you can watch live sport on tv 24 hours a day!

For the record as I know you like to quote me, I think a circa 5k capacity with the required number of seats for Superleague is more than ample for this area.

IF Town or Reds could fill the ground to close to capacity for at least a couple of Seasons then it could be argued at that point that expansion is required

[rockerlad]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Both clubs have the ambition to play at the highest level, but let’s keep that ambition to realistic levels.

I totally agree that the number of seats if at all possible should be the minimum required for Superleague as it makes sense for both clubs, but the plans haven’t been released yet, the original article just said they were going to look at FC United’s ground, they may just be using that as a starting point in discussions and develop any ideas from there once Town and Reds have put in some input with their own requirements.

end of the day, neither Town or Reds can afford a stadium on their own so whatever’s built will be governed by the finances available.

the directors of both clubs will ultimately make what will be a once in a lifetime decision for a stadium that will have to last for the next 50 years

 

totally agree, because it might be based on FC uniteds ground doesn't mean it will be a carbon copy, I have every faith in the town directors to put a case forward to ensure it meets the requirements for super league and I also have the same faith in the reds directors, if 2000 seats are what's required then we get 2000 seats, id imagine most modern stands are close to that now anyway. 

[Bert Street]

As an Oldham supporter, I would caution against leaving a dedicated rugby league facility to share with a football club, unless there is an absolute, set in stone equal rights and ownership agreement.

[rockerlad]

14 minutes ago, Bert Street said:

As an Oldham supporter, I would caution against leaving a dedicated rugby league facility to share with a football club, unless there is an absolute, set in stone equal rights and ownership agreement.

think it will be owned and ran by the council tbh. 

[town4me]

14 hours ago, Bert Street said:

As an Oldham supporter, I would caution against leaving a dedicated rugby league facility to share with a football club, unless there is an absolute, set in stone equal rights and ownership agreement.

This is the concern from some up here. Basically Our football club are getting a new stadium built on their current site on a model of a football ground in Manchester with a lot lower capacity than we currently  have for RL which we would share. 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

first and foremost I am a RL fan, i follow RL and have been a Town fan since the 70's.

I cannot for the life of me understand this obsession with having an 8 or 10k capacity stadium and what appears on the surface to be bitterness from a few individuals that the stadium is being built on the Borough Park site rather than a redeveloped Derwent Park.

beggars can't be choosers, neither club has the funds to build a new stadium, but out of both clubs the Red are probably in the stronger position as if the new stadium failed to get funding, they could, subject to getting a longer lease from Allerdale qualify for various FA funds to build a new grandstand which would be more than ample for their aim to climb the non league ladder.

Rugby league clubs don't have that luxury, there are no stadium grants for professional RL clubs, so Town would be stuck in limbo

[town4me]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

first and foremost I am a RL fan, i follow RL and have been a Town fan since the 70's.

I cannot for the life of me understand this obsession with having an 8 or 10k capacity stadium and what appears on the surface to be bitterness from a few individuals that the stadium is being built on the Borough Park site rather than a redeveloped Derwent Park.

beggars can't be choosers, neither club has the funds to build a new stadium, but out of both clubs the Red are probably in the stronger position as if the new stadium failed to get funding, they could, subject to getting a longer lease from Allerdale qualify for various FA funds to build a new grandstand which would be more than ample for their aim to climb the non league ladder.

Rugby league clubs don't have that luxury, there are no stadium grants for professional RL clubs, so Town would be stuck in limbo

Any new ground will be dictated by the finances. New facilities are definitely needed and no one should look a gift horse in the mouth.  It will be what it will be.  6k capcity with a possibility to expand  would be ideal IMO but as I say finances will dictate. I thought with the hotel being built and new  plans were to move away from single use ground/stadiums. Moving away from single use seems to be the modern way so they aren't  sat idle for the majority of the year. 

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

14 minutes ago, town4me said:

Any new ground will be dictated by the finances. New facilities are definitely needed and no one should look a gift horse in the mouth.  It will be what it will be.  6k capcity with a possibility to expand  would be ideal IMO but as I say finances will dictate. I thought with the hotel being built and new  plans were to move away from single use ground/stadiums. Moving away from single use seems to be the modern way so they aren't  sat idle for the majority of the year. 

absolutely, and again in an ideal world any stadium would be linked to other income making streams, whether that's hotels, apartments or otherwise, but as you say finances will dictate any development, and as its taxpayers money the area will always be limited to what is deemed value for money in a sparsely populated rural area. 

   

[Derwent Parker]

18 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

Im struggling to see your point here, are you suggesting that both clubs should stay as they are if an 8000 capacity stadium isn’t built?

the previously proposed stadium wasn’t viable, costs started at £15 Million, then jumped to £90 million over 50 years based on a hope that Sellafield would take office space, with as I understand it, release clauses built in after 15 years which could have left the rate payers having to foot the remaining rental payments if other tenants couldn’t be found.

Also the proposed match day hire costs would have made it unaffordable for both clubs, this was pointed out at the time when the proposal was first released so it’s all there in the public domain if you can be bothered to look for it.

So on to 2021, and there’s a huge opportunity to built a modern affordable Stadium for west Cumbria as part of a wider scheme to improve sports facilities in Workington.
 

You need to remember Allerdale has a population of only 100k, Town and Reds COMBINED  average attendance is probably around 1400 paying supporters, so that’s less than 2% of the population using the current facilities, but the other 98% who have little to no interest in either club will have to pay towards it in their council tax.

The total population of Allerdale is about the same size as Keighley, Oldham has 250k population and both examples above are close to inner cities with an even bigger population, coupled with more industry meaning there’s more potential sponsors.

In Cumbria we have Sellafield and a small handful of other companies with employees of over 500, so opportunities are very limited. Again that isn’t me being negative I’m just stating the facts!

if the stadium ends up being circa 5000 capacity then that means Town would have to increase their crowds by 600% to sell out the ground which is no mean feat in a time when you can watch live sport on tv 24 hours a day!

For the record as I know you like to quote me, I think a circa 5k capacity with the required number of seats for Superleague is more than ample for this area.

IF Town or Reds could fill the ground to close to capacity for at least a couple of Seasons then it could be argued at that point that expansion is required

Yes, in a way - if you check around you will notice that clubs always build better - its all there on the internet if you can be bothered to look for it.

Leigh for one example left Hilton park [10k] and built LSV [12k] newer and a little bit bigger and i I wonder if someone down there complained at that too "we never fill Hilton park why not just go for 5 k"

The previously proposed stadium costs started at £15 Million, that was the original plan, that did not include Sellafield etc [that has gone now] so all the additional costs you mention and the release clauses, other tenants etc and the large arguable costs are not relevant anymore.

Also the proposed match day hire costs if I remember was something like 20% gate money - i would imagine that would still apply in any future council run stadium? So I cant see your point here unless you are in the know and have been told council are letting us both use it Free of charge.  Then that would be a good deal.

So as you say on to 2021, and there’s a huge opportunity to build a modern affordable Stadium for west Cumbria as part of a wider scheme to improve sports facilities in Workington.

I agree but go back to the original plan the 15m one [remember this is not all the cost of the stadium and a chunk of that cost [planning, architects, land purchase [Lonsdale] as already been paid.

So lets assume for arguments sake removing costs of all the other items - hybrid pitch , landscaping - demolishing BP as it would need done  for a FC United style ground too.  Lets say that leaves 10m for the cost of the stadium only, which is by far a better quality all round that the FCU design.

All that work [other than stadium] would need added [cost wise] to the FCU stadium cost too.

Bearing in mind the FCU version cost 6.5M and even you agree the design we need needs a bigger stand for 3 times as many seats just to bring the SL minimum standards this would bring the cost up and would not be too far from the original plan, and would please everyone not just the REDS.

Actually i think the biggest argument here is the Original design with more seats is a family style stadium usually found at Rugby grounds whereas i believe and I may be wrong Football prefers a predominantly all standing stadium if possible basically a new reds ground

I wont reply to the next 5 paragraphs because its the same old story "we are too small population, not near a city, no work, not enough fans etc. As I said previously No ambition!

 

[Route66]

The idea is that the ground will become a community stadium with as much use as possible, both clubs will add value to the project and it has been pleasing in the last year or so to see links being strengthened. The reds biggest asset is the fact they run or involved in teams at all age groups, school links and women's and girls ,this should enable funding from the football foundation and sport England. For anyone worried about the seating capacity at fc united ,take a look at the main stand, it runs the length of the pitch but the end 2 sections have been left as framework ready for an increase in seating capacity. The area has missed out too many times over the years everyone has to work together to get the best deal available 

[Derwent Parker]

1 hour ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

first and foremost I am a RL fan, i follow RL and have been a Town fan since the 70's.

I cannot for the life of me understand this obsession with having an 8 or 10k capacity stadium and what appears on the surface to be bitterness from a few individuals that the stadium is being built on the Borough Park site rather than a redeveloped Derwent Park.

beggars can't be choosers, neither club has the funds to build a new stadium, but out of both clubs the Red are probably in the stronger position as if the new stadium failed to get funding, they could, subject to getting a longer lease from Allerdale qualify for various FA funds to build a new grandstand which would be more than ample for their aim to climb the non league ladder.

Rugby league clubs don't have that luxury, there are no stadium grants for professional RL clubs, so Town would be stuck in limbo

So you are not a Reds fan.

That's Rubbish - read the posts properly - i have never said i dont want to leave DP and am not Bitter at all about it being at BP

I want a proper dual stadium as promised with good seating not just a redeveloped BP with a small stand [at least till you pull it down]?

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

2 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

That's Rubbish - read the posts properly - i have never said i dont want to leave DP and am not Bitter at all about it being at BP

erm.... talking of reading posts properly, would you like to point out where I've said that 'you in particular' want to leave DP or that you are bitter about it going to BP ?

[townie88]

8k stadium great. 4k stadium, still an improvement on the ageing facilities both clubs have at the moment. Id take anything over what both have at the moment

[Death to the Rah Rah's]

I didn’t post the topic to start arguments and set fans against each other. At the end of the day we are all entitled to an opinion and there’s nothing wrong with a good debate.

All the points highlighted by supporters of both clubs have merit, but it will be finances which ultimately make the final decision should the funding bids be successful.

So in the meantime let’s all keep a cool head and hope that we can grace the terraces of either stadium before the end of May.

hopefully they’ll be some positive news about the stadium before the end of summer, so between now and then stay safe, get yer jabs when they become available and see you on the terraces !