Elstone gone (Merged threads)

[lucky 7]

13 minutes ago, M j M said:

Hmmmm.

McManus gives backing to new Super League CEO Robert Elstone

 

Well he didn't take long to change his mind then

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

Well he didn't take long to change his mind then

So McManus was one of the Three Amigos who staged the coup, supported the appointment of Elstone, but because he then tried to get Elstone ousted 2.5 years later he is one of the smart ones?

We need to get away from this mentality that people agreeing with your opinion are smart and honest, and those who disagree are fools and disingenuous. 

[Rupert Prince]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No chance, Everton have gone from mid table basket case to European football contenders since he left

Marcell Brands is Everton football director.  He would have a say in signing Anchelloti.  And Baxendale and Elstone would have had a say in signing Brands.

Who owns Everton...?  Who were CEO and deputy in 2016 when he effectively bought the club?

But leaving that aside one of the major jobs for both CEO and deputy will have been developing the new Everton Stadium. A £500m stadium on a World Heritage site. Neither of them pick the team sheet.

[lucky 7]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So McManus was one of the Three Amigos who staged the coup, supported the appointment of Elstone, but because he then tried to get Elstone ousted 2.5 years later he is one of the smart ones?

We need to get away from this mentality that people agreeing with your opinion are smart and honest, and those who disagree are fools and disingenuous. 

So Gary Heatherington isn't smart operator then?

Perhaps you fans of Elstone can list the positives he has brought to the game for the money he gets?

[lucky 7]

5 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Marcell Brands is Everton football director.  He would have a say in signing Anchelloti.  And Baxendale and Elstone would have had a say in signing Brands.

Who owns Everton...?  Who were CEO and deputy in 2016 when he effectively bought the club?

But leaving that aside one of the major jobs for both CEO and deputy will have been developing the new Everton Stadium. A £500m stadium on a World Heritage site. Neither of them pick the team sheet.

Your continuing defence of Elstone is misguided in my opinion

List me all the positives he brought to Super League and new sponsors to justify the money he was getting

How did he get on with the TV deal for the Catalans

[Rupert Prince]

12 minutes ago, M j M said:

Of course on the same day there was this response which I thought misguided at the time, and still do (in terms of tone if not underlying message).

Statemen from Gary Hetherington regarding plans for changes to Super League format

 

"Strong leadership from Brian Barwick..."  

[Exiled Wiganer]

I am a broken record on this, but who is responsible for a vision of the game, beyond grassroots support? What is the aim of the pro game? 

I don’t even think it’s difficult. From what I have seen, we can sustainably succeed with a strategy based on Northern power house plus London in England, and the south of France. We could look to divert funds to support the game’s growth in, say Newcastle and Toulouse as within that strategy. That sort of investment looks to me like sustainable “expansion”.  In London, I would make sure we put on prestige events every year, and invested in development officers (I would not bother with an SL club, however handy it might be for me personally). The potential player pool within a relatively small area is vast down here. As far as SL is concerned, I see the logic behind getting someone to focus on brand, sponsors and broadcasting. But they should be answerable to a proper supremo (Lewis or Lindsay type) who can step in on broader game issues. Define the roles, and then find the people... 

[lucky 7]

5 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I am a broken record on this, but who is responsible for a vision of the game, beyond grassroots support? What is the aim of the pro game? 

I don’t even think it’s difficult. From what I have seen, we can sustainably succeed with a strategy based on Northern power house plus London in England, and the south of France. We could look to divert funds to support the game’s growth in, say Newcastle and Toulouse as within that strategy. That sort of investment looks to me like sustainable “expansion”.  In London, I would make sure we put on prestige events every year, and invested in development officers (I would not bother with an SL club, however handy it might be for me personally). The potential player pool within a relatively small area is vast down here. As far as SL is concerned, I see the logic behind getting someone to focus on brand, sponsors and broadcasting. But they should be answerable to a proper supremo (Lewis or Lindsay type) who can step in on broader game issues. Define the roles, and then find the people... 

Lets not forget that Elstone is such a visionary he endorsed a team into super league from a Wigan suburb

[Tommygilf]

47 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This point keeps being rolled out about Warrington - what have they said? Because the only thing I have ever seen is that they abstained from the TWP vote because they felt there was a conflict and didn't want to be TWP's executioner, but similarly found the bid so poor that they couldn't vote positively for it unlike Saints did who also claimed a conflict.

I think we've had this debate before Dave but regardless the cracks were starting to appear in the Elstone regime - I doubt, because I think its a naïve position to think, that this has come about purely through Leeds and St Helens.

[Tommygilf]

48 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Marcell Brands is Everton football director.  He would have a say in signing Anchelloti.  And Baxendale and Elstone would have had a say in signing Brands.

Who owns Everton...?  Who were CEO and deputy in 2016 when he effectively bought the club?

But leaving that aside one of the major jobs for both CEO and deputy will have been developing the new Everton Stadium. A £500m stadium on a World Heritage site. Neither of them pick the team sheet.

So Elstone's premier achievement as Everton CEO is a football stadium that hasn't happened yet and not being the director of football?

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think we've had this debate before Dave but regardless the cracks were starting to appear in the Elstone regime - I doubt, because I think its a naïve position to think, that this has come about purely through Leeds and St Helens.

But it is a relatively simple point - he survived a vote of no confidence, with only Saints and Leeds as dissenters I believe. For some reason a couple of people include Warrington in that list as well, despite there being no evidence of that.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, lucky 7 said:

Go the Everton FC fans forum and read what the fans thought of him if it ls still on there. 

 

Not sure how relevant that is. After all, remember the fans opinion of the Glazers, Ken Bates, Nigel Wood, etc etc. Some fans don't like ANYONE. 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, lucky 7 said:

So Gary Heatherington isn't smart operator then?

Perhaps you fans of Elstone can list the positives he has brought to the game for the money he gets?

Gary Hetherington might not be everyone's cup of tea, but personally I think he cares about the game as a whole. I am not so sure that some of the other Chairmen do. I said from the early days of his tenure that Mr Elstone didn't seem to be achieving much or getting the game any extra coverage in the media. Can anyone say after seeing him being interviewed on TV that he had any charisma about him? Despite his big salary, I didn't envy him working for those wise men!

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

But it is a relatively simple point - he survived a vote of no confidence, with only Saints and Leeds as dissenters I believe. For some reason a couple of people include Warrington in that list as well, despite there being no evidence of that.

Who knows whether Warrington were supposed to be of the same position as St Helens but lost their bottle that day and subsequently St Helens have pulled rank, or at least that the poor PE deal and serious risk of lower Sky money tipped them over the edge.

I think you'd have to be deliberately naive to think after quite comfortably surviving a no confidence vote that with nothing else changing Elstone has offered his resignation. Given the 4 key pillars to his appointment were Saints, Warrington, Wigan and Hull, its not unreasonable to think that at least one of those (other than Saints) have come to a new conclusion on him - and given Pearson's erratic nature but otherwise consistent support of project Elstone and Lenegan's open support for Elstone (arguably because he was the key driver of all the owners to appoint him), deduction would suggest Warrington as the most critical leading "other" before the recent news. Equally, taking Michael Carter of Wakefield as typical of the representatives of Cas, Huddersfield, Hull KR and Salford, I doubt he's significantly lost his support base there - and in any case could those clubs really overturn the group in support? I think the answer to that is a clear no.

 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Who knows whether Warrington were supposed to be of the same position as St Helens but lost their bottle that day and subsequently St Helens have pulled rank, or at least that the poor PE deal and serious risk of lower Sky money tipped them over the edge.

I think you'd have to be deliberately naive to think after quite comfortably surviving a no confidence vote that with nothing else changing Elstone has offered his resignation. Given the 4 key pillars to his appointment were Saints, Warrington, Wigan and Hull, its not unreasonable to think that at least one of those (other than Saints) have come to a new conclusion on him - and given Pearson's erratic nature but otherwise consistent support of project Elstone and Lenegan's open support for Elstone (arguably because he was the key driver of all the owners to appoint him), deduction would suggest Warrington as the most critical leading "other" before the recent news. Equally, taking Michael Carter of Wakefield as typical of the representatives of Cas, Huddersfield, Hull KR and Salford, I doubt he's significantly lost his support base there - and in any case could those clubs really overturn the group in support? I think the answer to that is a clear no.

 

You wrongly claim nothing has changed since the no-confidence vote, despite highlighting the big event - the PE vote.

In reality there could be any combination of clubs happy or unhappy with Elstone, or it could be that he is very unhappy with them. 

You have in your head that a club has turned against him and created a story that that clubs is Warrington - with literally no evidence at all. That's your prerogative, but I'd argue that there are various scenarios that are equally likely here. 

[Dave T]

34 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Gary Hetherington might not be everyone's cup of tea, but personally I think he cares about the game as a whole. I am not so sure that some of the other Chairmen do. I said from the early days of his tenure that Mr Elstone didn't seem to be achieving much or getting the game any extra coverage in the media. Can anyone say after seeing him being interviewed on TV that he had any charisma about him? Despite his big salary, I didn't envy him working for those wise men!

I do always think it is rather unfair to claim that people do not care about the game as a whole, I don't think that is true. Often these claims are just made in a bit of a strop because people vote for something that we haven't agreed with - I mean a perfect example is the narrative that has been created over the last few years where the lower league clubs have become white knights who only want what is good for the game and SL have become the evil villains who are all for themselves. 

I think a helpful starting point is seeing merits in everyone's view. All ideas that are thrown around have some merits in my opinion, even those I strongly disagree with are not just put forward dishonestly.

One of the biggest talking points over the last 15 years or so in SL is licensing and removal of P&R. If you think this is a good idea you probably believe that it allows the top level to deliver growth and carry the rest of the game along with that. If you are against it you will believe that you are killing off the bottom of the pyramid and selfishly focusing on the greedy clubs at the top. It is easy to position opposition voters as not caring for the game and voting for self-interest, when in reality there are compelling arguments both ways. 

The same arguments can be made for most things, and whilst there are plenty of owners in the game who I don't particularly care for, I haven't seen too many decisions that smack of out and out selfishness. 

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

We need to get away from this mentality that people agreeing with your opinion are smart and honest, and those who disagree are fools and disingenuous. 

WE should be so lucky!

[Tommygilf]

45 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You wrongly claim nothing has changed since the no-confidence vote, despite highlighting the big event - the PE vote.

In reality there could be any combination of clubs happy or unhappy with Elstone, or it could be that he is very unhappy with them. 

You have in your head that a club has turned against him and created a story that that clubs is Warrington - with literally no evidence at all. That's your prerogative, but I'd argue that there are various scenarios that are equally likely here. 

Honestly mate I'm really not making it that serious, its a throwaway inclusion. Clearly Leeds and Saints have been opposed to Elstone's position since at least last Autumn and they have to have recruited some other clubs to their side for this to happen. The PE decision may well be the straw that broke the camels back with some clubs

[Oxford]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do always think it is rather unfair to claim that people do not care about the game as a whole, I don't think that is true. Often these claims are just made in a bit of a strop because people vote for something that we haven't agreed with

I think there is a consistency on the whole on the part of many adminstrators. Many statements, decisions, lack of support Total inactivity  and even opposition to, as well as being reactive rather than proactive provides evidence enough.

Of course they care about the whole game but the distance between what you say and what you do is always the most damning.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Honestly mate I'm really not making it that serious, its a throwaway inclusion. Clearly Leeds and Saints have been opposed to Elstone's position since at least last Autumn and they have to have recruited some other clubs to their side for this to happen. The PE decision may well be the straw that broke the camels back with some clubs

No that's fair, it's not important, but I just don't agree that the only reason he has resigned is because clubs have turned against him. I genuinely think it is equally as likely that he has got fed up of the clubs. I suggest he can probably get an easier job than what he has in RL! 

It'll be interesting to see what happens now as Martyn suggests he has a 12m notice period, would forcing a vote of no confidence have shortened this? 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

Not sure how relevant that is. After all, remember the fans opinion of the Glazers, Ken Bates, Nigel Wood, etc etc. Some fans don't like ANYONE. 

True, but equally they tend to be directed at owners/managers who are drawing out of the club rather than putting in or if a club of significant financial stature is being mismanaged. You don't get complaints against the City sports group, or Radrizzani at Leeds, or the Leicester or Southampton owners, or even Levy at Tottenham who is exceptionally pragmatic - you do get them about Newcastle, Man United, and Arsenal.

You can't pass everything off as "people will always moan". If enough people are moaning, there's usually a good enough underlying reason for it.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

No that's fair, it's not important, but I just don't agree that the only reason he has resigned is because clubs have turned against him. I genuinely think it is equally as likely that he has got fed up of the clubs. I suggest he can probably get an easier job than what he has in RL! 

It'll be interesting to see what happens now as Martyn suggests he has a 12m notice period, would forcing a vote of no confidence have shortened this? 

Yeah the Sun reported the 12 month thing too, who knows whether he will stay for that long. Ironically I think if he does stay for that time it will be limited to a role as a "marketing man"! FWIW I think between PE, a difficult TV deal and the largest club in the game headed by a figure respected throughout being consistently opposed to him may have driven this decision. I don't disagree with the view that he was in a difficult position from day one. However I would agree with Matthew Shaw's assessment that he was dealt a poor hand and then played it terribly.

Its perhaps telling that he was not the person commenting on the fixtures being released today.

[MattSantos]

7 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The NRL runs the game in Australia, everyone else follows its decisions whilst retaining control over their specific area and how that feeds into the NRL system.

But this isnt true. 

Nice to say mind

[iangidds]

On 10/02/2021 at 14:06, Exiled Wiganer said:

You are quite wrong.

The 2013 World Cup dwarfed anything seen before in the history of our game. With a fair wind, and the continued success of the vaccine roll out, this year’s could match it.

Ask the British public to name thd 2013 world cup squads , next to nobody in the Uk knows nothing about those England players; it might of been succesful to the RL public but thats as far as it went.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, iangidds said:

Ask the British public to name thd 2013 world cup squads , next to nobody in the Uk knows nothing about those England players; it might of been succesful to the RL public but thats as far as it went.

Do the same with most team sport tournaments from 8 years ago and you'll find the same. 

We shouldn't be setting unrealistic benchmarks so we can claim failure. 

But I would say in that tournament we did have Sam Tomkins, Sam Burgess and Kevin Sinfield who have profile that is greater than RL circles, and SBW played for the Kiwis.