The Rugby League GOAT

[Dunbar]

The reason why Hanley is the best.

There are players with unbelievable highlight reels who seem to be able to do things that no other player can. Those once in a generation special talents who will light up a game with a match winning moment.

And then there are players with huge workrates who seem to win a game through sheer endurance and the mental courage to refusal to surrender. 

And Hanley was both.

[Wigan Riversider]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

The reason why Hanley is the best.

There are players with unbelievable highlight reels who seem to be able to do things that no other player can. Those once in a generation special talents who will light up a game with a match winning moment.

And then there are players with huge workrates who seem to win a game through sheer endurance and the mental courage to refusal to surrender. 

And Hanley was both.

Spot on.

I will go further.

Throughout the opening 4 of the invincible Wembley winning run Wigan had 2 players who genuinely struck fear into the opposition. Hanley was the first.

[Scubby]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The reason why Hanley is the best.

There are players with unbelievable highlight reels who seem to be able to do things that no other player can. Those once in a generation special talents who will light up a game with a match winning moment.

And then there are players with huge workrates who seem to win a game through sheer endurance and the mental courage to refusal to surrender. 

And Hanley was both.

Hanley was the sort of player who was talked about in RL circles like a Messi or a Ronaldo is in soccer - particularly at Wigan. He is the best individual player I have ever seen.

However, I stick with Smith as the GOAT based on being consistently outstanding in 100+ rep games and still being at the top of his game at 37. 

[Wigan Riversider]

3 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Hanley was the sort of player who was talked about in RL circles like a Messi or a Ronaldo is in soccer - particularly at Wigan. He is the best individual player I have ever seen.

However, I stick with Smith as the GOAT based on being consistently outstanding in 100+ rep games and still being at the top of his game at 37. 

Fair point.

Hanley was still playing well for Balmain at 37 when the Super League war was raging Down Under.

Smith doesn't figure as GOAT IMHO.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, Wigan Riversider said:

Fair point.

Hanley was still playing well for Balmain at 37 when the Super League war was raging Down Under.

Smith doesn't figure as GOAT IMHO.

It is a great debate to have. I wonder if Hanley had stayed and finished his career with Wigan then he might be thought of differently (e.g. celebrated by one club). One thing is for sure, why the hell didn't he play in that 1994 series? He was still playing so well. 

[Wigan Riversider]

Just now, Scubby said:

It is a great debate to have. I wonder if Hanley had stayed and finished his career with Wigan then he might be thought of differently (e.g. celebrated by one club). One thing is for sure, why the hell didn't he play in that 1994 series? He was still playing so well. 

Hanley had retired after an unexpected international retirement in Leeds in 1993 prior to the GB v NZ series.

I believed that he could have picked himself for GB in 1994 as he was the coach. However, I believe that he was past his best by then.

In terms of the players mentioned on here as GOAT, if I was picking a team, I would find myself inclined to name: Lockyer, Kenny, Lewis, Sterling, Smith and Hanley in the line up. 

However, the GOAT IMHO out of those is/was Ellery.

It's a great debate as it proves nothing at all but it's good to reminisce.

[Dunbar]

I think when people talk about the longevity that that Cameron Smith has had and his career endurance, it is worth remembering that Ellery Hanley played 532 career games and Smith 535.

Smith was/is a remarkable talent but if Hanley and Smith were in the same side then it would be Hanley that would be the star and the match winner week in and week out.

[Maximus Decimus]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I think when people talk about the longevity that While Cameron Smith has had and his career endurance, it is worth remembering that Ellery Hanley played 532 career games and Smith 535.

Smith was/is a remarkable talent but if Hanley and Smith were in the same side then it would be Hanley that would be the star and the match winner week in and week out.

I'm not a huge fan of the number of games and seasons etc argument as a reason for being the best. 

It's basically rewarding players who are luckier with injuries than others.

Sam Burgess retired early and only played 270 games whereas Sinfield played over 500, but Burgess stands much higher in the British GOAT stakes than Sinfield. 

 

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I'm not a huge fan of the number of games and seasons etc argument as a reason for being the best. 

It's basically rewarding players who are luckier with injuries than others.

Sam Burgess retired early and only played 270 games whereas Sinfield played over 500, but Burgess stands much higher in the British GOAT stakes than Sinfield. 

 

I agree with you.  I am using the stats as a counter to the argument that Smith is the greatest due to the seasons and games he played.

Put it this way.  For whatever reason, if both Cam Smith and Ellery Hanley had only had a career of 5 years due to back luck with injury, which of those would be remembered and talked about in these conversations?

[Wigan Riversider]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree with you.  I am using the stats as a counter to the argument that Smith is the greatest due to the seasons and games he played.

Put it this way.  For whatever reason, if both Cam Smith and Ellery Hanley had only had a career of 5 years due to back luck with injury, which of those would be remembered and talked about in these conversations?

It wouldn't be Smith...

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I think when people talk about the longevity that that Cameron Smith has had and his career endurance, it is worth remembering that Ellery Hanley played 532 career games and Smith 535.

Between 1956 and 1974 Neil Fox played just short of 600 games at the top level + 29 games for GB.  He went on to achieve 760 appearances in club rugby + > 60 representative games.  Add to this his points scoring feats and I think it makes him a good candidate for GOAT.

[Maximus Decimus]

12 minutes ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

Between 1956 and 1974 Neil Fox played just short of 600 games at the top level + 29 games for GB.  He went on to achieve 760 appearances in club rugby + > 60 representative games.  Add to this his points scoring feats and I think it makes him a good candidate for GOAT.

It might but it's hard for the vast majority of us to judge it in anyway. Same goes for Billy Boston, Vince Karalius, Brian Bevan, Alex Murphy etc.

Stats on a page and a few highlight clips don't really tell us what they were like, especially considering the game they played was so different than the one played today. 

[Chris22]

2 hours ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

Best player I've seen is Lockyer, 2004 final still divided me as been gutted but also enjoying seeing a player at his peak. 

Not strictly on topic, but that Australia performance in the 2004 Tri Nations Final is the greatest team performance I have ever seen in rugby league. Britain had a good team that year, played a good series and were absolutely destroyed. 

[Clogiron]

I don't like Smith, his constant harping at the ref and running into offside player's annoys me too much, he is good as a dummy half and as a kicker but is that enough?   To be considered as a GOAT you have to be someone who excites people and makes fans want to go out of their way to pay to watch them, does that apply to Smith? Not for me it doesn't. A Boston, Van Vollenhoven,Offiah Thurston, Kenny would but to my mind Hanley is the tops at his peak the crowd would be expectant whenever he got the ball, I was lucky enough to see him during his stint with Balmain when he carried them to the Grand Final on his own only to be taken out of the game by Terry Lamb, the only way they had of stopping him. A disgusting act that went unpunished but only added to his stature. Over the last 60 years he's been the best I have seen.

[Chris22]

Hard for me to say who the greatest player of all time is having watched the sport since around the start of the Super League era and only having seen highlights of the likes of Hanley etc.

It's an interesting debate about what makes a great. There are some who may not have the most flash highlight reels but are incredibly dependent and influential, even if they didn't score the match winning try. Others who always pull it out of the bag. Does personality come into it?

I'll caveat this next sentence, I am not saying he is the greatest of all time or even close, but Paul Sculthorpe in 2001 and 2002 was unbelievable. He was as close to a complete player that I have personally seen. He had everything; skill, toughness, a kicking game, a passing game, a hard tackler. If he hadn't suffered so many injuries, then I do wonder what if.

[Wigan Riversider]

6 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

 

I'll caveat this next sentence by saying I do not saying he is the greatest of all time or even close, but Paul Sculthorpe in 2001 and 2002 was unbelievable. He was as close to a complete player that I have personally seen. He had everything; skill, toughness, a kicking game, a passing game, a hard tackler. If he hadn't suffered so many injuries, then I do wonder what if.

Sculthorpe was indeed magnificent at that time IMHO...

[Mr Frisky]

1 hour ago, Clogiron said:

I don't like Smith, his constant harping at the ref and running into offside player's annoys me too much, he is good as a dummy half and as a kicker but is that enough?   To be considered as a GOAT you have to be someone who excites people and makes fans want to go out of their way to pay to watch them, does that apply to Smith? Not for me it doesn't. A Boston, Van Vollenhoven,Offiah Thurston, Kenny would but to my mind Hanley is the tops at his peak the crowd would be expectant whenever he got the ball, I was lucky enough to see him during his stint with Balmain when he carried them to the Grand Final on his own only to be taken out of the game by Terry Lamb, the only way they had of stopping him. A disgusting act that went unpunished but only added to his stature. Over the last 60 years he's been the best I have seen.

To be honest if Roby had played in the NRL he would be about level with Smith- its just the snobbery about SL that means he will never be classed as a true great.

Based on the past 40years Roby and Smith both in top 20 for me with Hanley top all day long and just for his stature and influence I'd put Peacock in the top 10.

[Bert Street]

Mal Reilly and Roger Millward really ought to have honourable mentions here.

[johnmatrix]

It's an unfair question....who was the best in their era but so many variables its untrue 

For mine best I ever saw is ellery hanley its not even close.

Lewis  Meninga  Daley, fittler johns,sculthorpe,lockyer all great great players.....but all under ellery

[GUBRATS]

Murph 

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

3 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

It might but it's hard for the vast majority of us to judge it in anyway. Same goes for Billy Boston, Vince Karalius, Brian Bevan, Alex Murphy etc.

Stats on a page and a few highlight clips don't really tell us what they were like, especially considering the game they played was so different than the one played today. 

I feel the same when I read about the legendary Jonty Parkin. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

I don’t support Wigan, but I think it’s hard to look past Ellery Hanley.

I saw him first as a kid on TV, then live after being taken Saints-Wigan matches (and he was probably the star attraction) and finally I luckily got to meet and interview him briefly years later as a radio reporter.

So I’m a bit biased due to the fact I saw more of him than the other greats that have been mentioned so far.

[The Rocket]

It`s interesting, you listen to a bloke like Ray Warren calling Rugby League matches for 50+ years, at the game, and you will always hear him talk about Johnny Raper as the best he has ever seen. Don`t know never saw him, but Ray`s seen a lot of players.

And as far as endurance, toughness, skill, fight to the last minute, and the ability to pull games out of the fire you couldn`t go past Lockyer and Thurston for me. Thurston a nose in front, he was in everything and absolutely everywhere.

[CanaBull]

Hard to touch Hanley really for me.  It's probably the first real RL etched memory his last season at Bradford when he got the try record, the atmosphere when he'd get the ball and everyone talking about him like no one ever since.  Dad and Grandad always said there was none better either.  There was a kids training session the following year, Phil Ford was there, and some smart mouth giving it 'wish it were last year, we'd have had Ellery'. 

[Just Browny]

Good debate this. I would have to grudgingly say that someone like Smith is always up there. He makes the right decisions, he picks the right passes, he creates the conditions for the flair players to do their stuff, he just stubbornly refuses to lose.

For me it would be Lockyer. Many of the same characteristics - almost ridiculously spot on with his decisions, complete mastery of the basics - AND with a number of standout moments that make for a hell of a highlights reel.