Another Restructure?

[Hela Wigmen]

FWIW, unless there’s money handed over as a “shut up and give us your vote”, there won’t be enough yes’ to push this through anyway. 

[Damien]

League 1 clubs currently get £75k. If cuts need to be made across the board then this could be cut to £50k or even £25k. I refuse to believe that every Super League club couldn't do without £50k to fund a League 1 club, its not even the average wage of one Super League player.

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Without any sources to any credible journalists that such a meeting and such things were discussed, I’ll put this down to the rumour mill churning in the off season. That said, I’m sure this structure will be on the cards when the future is discussed, whenever that’ll be. 

There was a meeting between the RFL and Championship clubs last week.

[Smudger06]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

League 1 clubs currently get £75k. If cuts need to be made across the board then this could be cut to £50k or even £25k. I refuse to believe that every Super League club couldn't do without £50k to fund a League 1 club, its not even the average wage of one Super League player.

75k will be the critical point to keep these L1 clubs as part time pro's, the bare minimum has already been reached I'm afraid. 

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

There was a meeting between the RFL and Championship clubs last week.

Right. And very little has come out in terms of any future change to the structure by any credible journalist. 

[Robin Evans]

6 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Right. And very little has come out in terms of any future change to the structure by any credible journalist. 

Ah.... the leak has obviously been plugged then! Good owd bobby...

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Smudger06 said:

75k will be the critical point to keep these L1 clubs as part time pro's, the bare minimum has already been reached I'm afraid. 

75k is far more than they have ever got previously. In previous TV deals they got a fraction of that. They seemed to survive then.

[Tonka]

Always feels to me like the same pizza being sliced up differently.

[Smudger06]

31 minutes ago, Damien said:

75k is far more than they have ever got previously. In previous TV deals they got a fraction of that. They seemed to survive then.

I guess it depends on how much the backers were willing to put in out of their own pocket back then compared to now? 

75k may well be far more......but I'd hazard a guess that the cost of signing and retaining part time players was far less. 

[Griff]

14 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

Expand Super League, not shrink it even further. 

GROWTH for crying out loud.

The thought of another change, how many is that since 2008?

Can we just decide once and for all whether we want to grow the game or contract it ?

[sweaty craiq]

Most still have NO VISION when it comes to why 2 x 10 is the way.

SKY need to be SOLD something different to get the financial support needed to expand the game, the were sold Jeopardy with the the middle 8's - they bought into it and the tv deal shows that. The issue was the top 8's was a flop due to being a foregone conclusion well before season end.

SKY want competitive games, viewers would rather watch Wakey v Fev battling for promotion than Saints running 60 past a battered basement dweller looking to rest players for a home game it could win the next week.

We have Wigan, Cas, Leeds, Huddersfield, Wire, Saints, Hull and Cats who will probably in some order be this years T8 - we have Leigh Wakey Salford and HKR fighting to avoid the drop. You put 2 of the bottom 4 in SL2, you add London, TO, Newcastle, York, Fev, Bradford, Widnes then make a call on the other places - personally another French club or Fax as it stands.

You sell 2 highly competitive full time divisions with automatic P&R plus play offs for relegation/promotion between the 2. 4 games a week on TV plus a French game, SKY buy into this format (soccer anyone) and fund the clubs £30m pa £2m to SL1 and £1m to SL2

The rest stay PT and get, say, £20k funding but the door is open for clubs to enter the FT structure that meet certain criteria - possibly similar to that of the SL tender in December and certainly with an independent panel.

Please be honest when answering a simple question - is giving a Championship club with a few hundred fans £200k going to expand the game and interest TV or global sponsorship? When you give it to 5 of them isnt it better to have 20 development officers, or use it to develop RL in Ontario?

[DOGFATHER]

10 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

How 2x10 ‘could’ work 

SL 1

Castleford 
Catalans 
Huddersfield
Hull
Hull KR
Leeds
Saints
Salford 
Warrington
Wigan

SL2

Bradford
Featherstone
Halifax
Leigh
London
Newcastle
Toulouse
Wakefield
Widnes
York

Both leagues on telly (not just streaming). c.£20m/yr funding for SL1 clubs, c.£10m for SL2.

As part of the restructure, there could be payments (perhaps funded via Challenge Cup monies) to t’other 16 clubs - Barrow, Batley, Coventry, Dewsbury, Doncaster, Hunslet, Keighley, Oldham, London Skolars, North Wales, Rochdale, Sheffield, Swinton, West Wales, Whitehaven and Workington - to form an ‘RFL Championship’.’ 

There would be P&R between SL1&2 but not below. Just ideas!

Sorry MOK, this post is not directed at you, however after reading this forum for quite a while now, I realise that this league structure would be the ideal schenario to many members of the forum, if indeed this idea did come in to fruition.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the criteria for this is based on having a person(s), willing to throw money at their respective clubs?

If this was the structure, how many of those teams have got close to consistantly breaking even over the last 5 years? I would suggest many of the clubs "not making the cut" will have come a lot closer than those that did.

Many of the owners of those clubs are small time "business" men, whose businesses may well have taken a significant hit during the pandemic and will therefore be unable to throw anywhere the amount of money at their respective clubs to offset the losses, that they have previously done. Where does that leave those clubs then?

Is this really a sound footing to base the structure and long term future of the game? A list of clubs, that over the years have had huge amounts of money thrown at them, from several successive Sky deals, and have proven time and again, that they are financial basket cases.

Is it not more likely that this type of thinking, is exactly why the game is in the state it is in?

[Hela Wigmen]

9 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Most still have NO VISION when it comes to why 2 x 10 is the way.

SKY need to be SOLD something different to get the financial support needed to expand the game, the were sold Jeopardy with the the middle 8's - they bought into it and the tv deal shows that. The issue was the top 8's was a flop due to being a foregone conclusion well before season end.

SKY want competitive games, viewers would rather watch Wakey v Fev battling for promotion than Saints running 60 past a battered basement dweller looking to rest players for a home game it could win the next week.

We have Wigan, Cas, Leeds, Huddersfield, Wire, Saints, Hull and Cats who will probably in some order be this years T8 - we have Leigh Wakey Salford and HKR fighting to avoid the drop. You put 2 of the bottom 4 in SL2, you add TO, Newcastle, York, Fev, Bradford, Widnes then make a call on the other 2 places - personally another French club and Fax as it stands.

You sell 2 highly competitive full time divisions with automatic P&R plus play offs for relegation/promotion between the 2. 4 games a week on TV plus a French game, SKY buy into this format (soccer anyone) and fund the clubs £30m pa £2m to SL1 and £1m to SL2

The rest stay PT and get, say, £20k funding but the door is open for clubs to enter the FT structure that meet certain criteria - possibly similar to that of the SL tender in December and certainly with an independent panel.

Please be honest when answering a simple question - is giving a Championship club with a few hundred fans £200k going to expand the game and interest TV or global sponsorship? When you give it to 5 of them isnt it better to have 20 development officers, or use it to develop RL in Ontario?

That has all the issues the game has now but with fewer teams to worry about. It’s not the answer. 

[sweaty craiq]

3 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Sorry MOK, this post is not directed at you, however after reading this forum for quite a while now, I realise that this league structure would be the ideal schenario to many members of the forum, if indeed this idea did come in to fruition.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the criteria for this is based on having a person(s), willing to throw money at their respective clubs?

If this was the structure, how many of those teams have got close to consistantly breaking even over the last 5 years? I would suggest many of the clubs "not making the cut" will have come a lot closer than those that did.

Many of the owners of those clubs are small time "business" men, whose businesses may well have taken a significant hit during the pandemic and will therefore be unable to throw anywhere the amount of money at their respective clubs to offset the losses, that they have previously done. Where does that leave those clubs then?

Is this really a sound footing to base the structure and long term future of the game? A list of clubs, that over the years have had huge amounts of money thrown at them, from several successive Sky deals, and have proven time and again, that they are financial basket cases.

Is it not more likely that this type of thinking, is exactly why the game is in the state it is in?

You are half wrong, but cash is needed to expand/grow and at present we manage by keeping the cap low which is not the signal to attract cash - therefore owners/fans will have to tip more in.

[Rupert Prince]

1 hour ago, LeeF said:

I assume that you understand the vast differences between a St Pats and say a Hunslet or a Workington?

SL clubs are very worried about TV money and have been looking at ways to increase their share/ pot for a number of years

SL gave away millions from the TV deal to lower leagues and its been wasted.  The proposed SL deal is solely for SL, and at approx reported 30 million it's an increase.  This is why the Championship are so anxious to get back control of SL

The vast majority of none SL teams cannot be even part time.  If such clubs can make payments they should.  So should St Pats etc.  But there really should be no level of formal contracts.  It should be amateur or more accurately Open.

Given available money its pie in the sky to even suggest 20 teams in a 2 division system.  12 is barely credible.  But plausible compromise might justify 14.   

Overwhelmingly it surely right in the medium term to limit professional Rugby League in England and France to a maximum 14 teams.  All below, in regional divisions and amateur.

The day when a low pay, part time, low admission price, 30 team competition which aspired to the Challenge Cup, has long since gone.  Thay boat sailed when RU went professional.  It's a boat that's trailing in our wake and by the looks of it the clubs are (maybe they already have) determined to burn its lifeboat.

[sweaty craiq]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

That has all the issues the game has now but with fewer teams to worry about. It’s not the answer. 

Why?

[Smudger06]

I think its vital that Sky only get 1st two picks per round and that SL retain the rights to the remainder of the games (exclusivity clause is killing the game) 

[sweaty craiq]

1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said:

SL gave away millions from the TV deal to lower leagues and its been wasted.  The proposed SL deal is solely for SL, and at approx reported 30 million it's an increase.  This is why the Championship are so anxious to get back control of SL

The vast majority of none SL teams cannot be even part time.  If such clubs can make payments they should.  So should St Pats etc.  But there really should be no level of formal contracts.  It should be amateur or more accurately Open.

Given available money its pie in the sky to even suggest 20 teams in a 2 division system.  12 is barely credible.  But plausible compromise might justify 14.   

Overwhelmingly it surely right in the medium term to limit professional Rugby League in England and France to a maximum 14 teams.  All below, in regional divisions and amateur.

The day when a low pay, part time, low admission price, 30 team competition which aspired to the Challenge Cup, has long since gone.  Thay boat sailed when RU went professional.  It's a boat that's trailing in our wake and by the looks of it the clubs are (maybe they already have) determined to burn its lifeboat.

We've tried that - it failed. To attract cash you need a vision, something radical and exciting that broadcasterS want a part of

[sweaty craiq]

2 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

I think its vital that Sky only get 1st two picks per round and that SL retain the rights to the remainder of the games (exclusivity clause is killing the game) 

If SKY paid £100m pa for that exclusivity would it still be killing the game?

[Smudger06]

Just now, sweaty craiq said:

If SKY paid £100m pa for that exclusivity would it still be killing the game?

Haha, good point. Id have to say probably still yes. But that kind of money guarantees a deal regardless. 

[steve oates]

13 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

You mean like Scottish football?

I remember them having a 10 club league, AND Rugby League having an 8 clubs second division........

Most of all I remember 2x10 being considered when it was first confirmed SKY would not be paying the big money again.  This must affect a lot of clubs??

[Tommygilf]

14 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

You'd hope so. Without them in the British system French game in general would loose momentum and the French national team would be a lot worse off. England, Australia & NZ need the likes of France & PNG to kick on. 

You would hope so yes, but given the current "save yourselves" attitude of kicking people out of the life boats currently, I can't honestly say I'm confident about it.

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

Sorry MOK, this post is not directed at you, however after reading this forum for quite a while now, I realise that this league structure would be the ideal schenario to many members of the forum, if indeed this idea did come in to fruition.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the criteria for this is based on having a person(s), willing to throw money at their respective clubs?

If this was the structure, how many of those teams have got close to consistantly breaking even over the last 5 years? I would suggest many of the clubs "not making the cut" will have come a lot closer than those that did.

Many of the owners of those clubs are small time "business" men, whose businesses may well have taken a significant hit during the pandemic and will therefore be unable to throw anywhere the amount of money at their respective clubs to offset the losses, that they have previously done. Where does that leave those clubs then?

Is this really a sound footing to base the structure and long term future of the game? A list of clubs, that over the years have had huge amounts of money thrown at them, from several successive Sky deals, and have proven time and again, that they are financial basket cases.

Is it not more likely that this type of thinking, is exactly why the game is in the state it is in?

It's just a thought exercise on my part about how 2x10 would work, written down.

In truth, there's not even 10 clubs deserving a place in SL1 through performances on the field. KR edges it here over Wakefield for their larger support, the Hull derby and better facilities than the diabolical Ugly Eyesore (Belle Vue). But they’d find it tough to stay up.

The SL2 ten here are six solid heartland clubs and four established city clubs. TV funding behind them offers stability and the likes of London, Newcastle, Toulouse and York to achieve their potential in terms of support.

I'd like to think there’s enough broadcasters/outlets out there hungry for live British sport content to effectively bankroll a decent comp at a reasonable cost. Most of the SL2 clubs have decent fanbases, after all. It could be Sky or another broadcaster, as presumably it would be a separate package. 

[Smudger06]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

You would hope so yes, but given the current "save yourselves" attitude of kicking people out of the life boats currently, I can't honestly say I'm confident about it.

Pretty sick, it's not like they are killing random strangers by throwing them outta the lifeboats either.....its their brother and sister (clubs)......

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

Why?

Loop fixtures - People didn’t like them under the 8’s format, people didn't like them when Super League played 27 weekly rounds and people don’t like the fact we’re going to play 25 weekly rounds in 2021 with loop games. A ten team league looks as though you’d play the other nine teams in your league three times a year in the regular season, which people almost certainly wouldn’t like. 

The Million Pound Game - Great drama for the neutral, I will give you that. Scott Moore’s try and Gareth O’Brien’s field goal were great moments but the build up and post match interviews were littered with players and coaches complaining that livelihoods were at stake and it wasn’t a particularly nice way to end the season. I can’t see that changing if you’re pitting 9th in Super League up against 3rd in the Championship.

Disparity in funding - Obviously your figures aren’t final and are just a rough guide but the sheer difference in funding is likely to remain fairly eye watering, which current Super League clubs won’t be keen on risking receiving, seeing as you’re relegating two of them, and ambitious Championship teams are going to be behind the eight ball given such a disparity, adding to the idea that a select few teams would, likely, yo-yo between the two leagues. 

It appears to be doing the old Rugby League adage of merging a few structures together and spitting it out as some sort of new, exciting structure when it actually isn’t. It looks like moving deckchairs on the Titanic rather than actually sorting any issues the game has.