Price to go

[Davo5]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

What years are we talking about here? Wiki is proving a touch difficult on this and my memory ain't what it used to be! 

2001/02

[Leeds Wire]

2 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Price will be remembered as the coach of the team when we secured probably our best Wembley win and as someone who had us consistently competing at the top. He can go home with his head held high.

However, with the players at his disposal the team has simply not excited enough or consistently shown the resilience needed to win lots of trophies. The decline of our attack into five drives and a cross field kick isn't just a moan about excitement; it means we don't score enough points to put games to bed and it regularly haunts us. In last year's season, where most teams were decimated, we stayed pretty healthy and still dropped out feebly. That was a turning point for me, and we need to find someone else to have a go. For me we should also let Briers go and have a change of scenery too.

Interesting angle, JB.

For me the obvious choice is Andrew Henderson with Kylie as his right hand man. I think Briers probably has a job for life but not necessarily as a leader.

You make a good point about fresh faces but I'm not informed enough to know who is available down under.

#anyonebutwane

[Saint Toppy]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

Being involved with local rugby league in Warrington, it increasingly frustrating listening to the Directors of the club say every year they want more local lads in the system, but continually sign from afar and spend money on transfers.  

And this is exactly the crux of the problem at Warrington. They are probably putting in just as much effort & investment as the likes as Saints & Wigan in junior development but its when these young players get to a point where they're ready to step up to the first team.

Wire seem reluctant to give long term opportunities and only use young players when they absolutely have to as cover for injury / suspension etc. They always seem to go for the short term option of buying in players instead of giving these youngsters time to settle in and play week after week (eg. buying Widdop instead of giving Patten the opportunity to prove himself). These young players eventually give up waiting for their opportunity and move on and the cycle continues as they then buy in more players from outside.

There needs to be a fundamental shift in culture from the whole club, including the board making it clear to the coach that this is the clubs policy of promoting youth over buying in players. Eamon McManus has publically said for years that Saints will promote from within wherever possible and aside from a few bad years under Cunningham with some very dubious signings the coaches have by & large bought into this, promoting the young players and supplementing with buying. 

[Chris Taylor]

3 hours ago, Just Browny said:

The decline of our attack into five drives and a cross field kick isn't just a moan about excitement

You could say the same about most teams now, sadly.

 

[Saint Toppy]

3 hours ago, CiderWire said:

I have no axe to grind with Pricey, he has been a successful coach during his time at Wire, yet it is the lack of a grand final victory which defines the terms in which he is judged. This and the seemingly clueless attacking strategies displayed by a team absolutely bursting with attacking talent! This raises the question of whether a coach tries to redevelop a team to play the way he believes will win games, or, coaches a team in a way that recognises and exploits their talents in the best manner? I sometimes wonder if Price falls somewhere in between.

Anyway, I wish him good fortune over the course of the forthcoming season and fully understand his families desire to return home.

I think it depends on the extent of the problem. Look at Holbrook for example. He took over a Cunningham team who were languishing around the bottom half of the table and playing terrible rugby and with very few changes in personnel turned them into Champions, playing open attractive rugby in the process. He's now doing a similar job in the NRL with the Titans.

IMO I think what Wire need a Holbrook type coach to completely shake the team up otherwise they'll go through another few generations who will never see their team as champions.  

[CiderWire]

Just now, Saint Toppy said:

I think it depends on the extent of the problem. Look at Holbrook for example. He took over a Cunningham team who were languishing around the bottom half of the table and playing terrible rugby and with very few changes in personnel turned them into Champions, playing open attractive rugby in the process. He's now doing a similar job in the NRL with the Titans.

IMO I think what Wire need a Holbrook type coach to completely shake the team up otherwise they'll go through another few generations who will never see their team as champions.  

I totally agree. Holbrook got the best out of the players at his disposal. Is it a cultural change, tactical coaching change or a character/personality shift......or a combination of all three?  Only those on the inside will know.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

And this is exactly the crux of the problem at Warrington. They are probably putting in just as much effort & investment as the likes as Saints & Wigan in junior development but its when these young players get to a point where they're ready to step up to the first team.

Wire seem reluctant to give long term opportunities and only use young players when they absolutely have to as cover for injury / suspension etc. They always seem to go for the short term option of buying in players instead of giving these youngsters time to settle in and play week after week (eg. buying Widdop instead of giving Patten the opportunity to prove himself). These young players eventually give up waiting for their opportunity and move on and the cycle continues as they then buy in more players from outside.

There needs to be a fundamental shift in culture from the whole club, including the board making it clear to the coach that this is the clubs policy of promoting youth over buying in players. Eamon McManus has publically said for years that Saints will promote from within wherever possible and aside from a few bad years under Cunningham with some very dubious signings the coaches have by & large bought into this, promoting the young players and supplementing with buying. 

Declan Patton played 106 games for Wire. I think he had his chance.

It'd be interesting to see the makeup of the top 25 players at each club in terms of how many were developed through their own systems. My instinct tells me we would be on the low end, but I don't know whether in reality it is Saints, Leeds and Wigan way ahead of others.

Trying to read the SL website is a waste of time.

[Tommygilf]

Some good points raised by Carney here, I think if the season starts as poorly as the last one finished then it'll just be time to go.

[latchford albion]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

And this is exactly the crux of the problem at Warrington. They are probably putting in just as much effort & investment as the likes as Saints & Wigan in junior development but its when these young players get to a point where they're ready to step up to the first team.

Wire seem reluctant to give long term opportunities and only use young players when they absolutely have to as cover for injury / suspension etc. They always seem to go for the short term option of buying in players instead of giving these youngsters time to settle in and play week after week (eg. buying Widdop instead of giving Patten the opportunity to prove himself). These young players eventually give up waiting for their opportunity and move on and the cycle continues as they then buy in more players from outside.

There needs to be a fundamental shift in culture from the whole club, including the board making it clear to the coach that this is the clubs policy of promoting youth over buying in players. Eamon McManus has publically said for years that Saints will promote from within wherever possible and aside from a few bad years under Cunningham with some very dubious signings the coaches have by & large bought into this, promoting the young players and supplementing with buying. 

When the young players got their chance against Salford, they may have lost the game, but in terms of attractive rugby it was about the best I saw Wire last year.  They certainly lost to Salford with more panache than the first choice team did in the semi final.

Not saying that Price should have thrown them in week after week (he shouldn't) but there is definitely potential there.

[bobbruce]

3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

We finished third & reached the Champions League semi’s,so hardly dropping of a cliff.
The sudden departure of Stam and the likes of Cole/Yorke/Irwin being fading forces had as much if not more of an impact than Fergie announcing he was retiring.

United clearly had a terrible first half to the season and kicked on once he changed his mind early in the new year. Fergie himself thinks it was the biggest mistake of his career announcing his retirement. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

We finished third & reached the Champions League semi’s,so hardly dropping of a cliff.
The sudden departure of Stam and the likes of Cole/Yorke/Irwin being fading forces had as much if not more of an impact than Fergie announcing he was retiring.

Can only really go off Ferguson’s own confessions that announcing his retirement had a detrimental effect on the motivation of his players.

[Angelic Cynic]

There seems to be a dearth of suggestions for a BAME head coach.

This is Warrington who jumped on board with Black Lives Matter.

I do hope it wasn't just empty rhetoric/ virtue signalling / wokeness.

I really do want a favourite Super League club to follow should the sport continue to disappear in participants,spectators and finance.

[Dave T]

There does appear to be an over-stating of the 'issues' that Wire have. 

Since 2009 we have won 2 LLS, Played in 4 Grand Finals (winning zero), Played in 6 Cup Finals, winning 4. That aint a bad return, and whilst people will naturally point to the Final losses, they are just Rugby losses - not necessarily an outcome of issues at the club. I mean we don't look at Saints' 5 straight Grand Final losses and suggest that they had a fundamental issue.

The Grand Final losses by Wire (and Cup losses) were all close games - 3 of them were by 8pts or less, with 1 by 14, and the Cups by 6 and 2 points. These were all games where we competed well and the games could have gone either way. These were just 80 minute losses. On the way to some of these finals we knocked out the likes of Saints and Leeds, despite our 'issues' versus them.

The club has a system that sees them playing in the big games regularly, I'm not sure I see a system that is not working. Sometimes a Grand Final turns round on a couple of injuries, or a wonder tackle prevents another cup win - this is all the beauty of sport. I see little more than a coach who has served his time and is returning home to Oz.

I applaud local development, all clubs should be taking it seriously, but we seem to set ourselves a really high benchmark versus other sports. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

There seems to be a dearth of suggestions for a BAME head coach.

This is Warrington who jumped on board with Black Lives Matter.

I do hope it wasn't just empty rhetoric/ virtue signalling / wokeness.

I really do want a favourite Super League club to follow should the sport continue to disappear in participants,spectators and finance.

You are part of this thread, feel free to suggest a BAME coach.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There does appear to be an over-stating of the 'issues' that Wire have. 

Since 2009 we have won 2 LLS, Played in 4 Grand Finals (winning zero), Played in 6 Cup Finals, winning 4. That aint a bad return, and whilst people will naturally point to the Final losses, they are just Rugby losses - not necessarily an outcome of issues at the club. I mean we don't look at Saints' 5 straight Grand Final losses and suggest that they had a fundamental issue.

The Grand Final losses by Wire (and Cup losses) were all close games - 3 of them were by 8pts or less, with 1 by 14, and the Cups by 6 and 2 points. These were all games where we competed well and the games could have gone either way. These were just 80 minute losses. On the way to some of these finals we knocked out the likes of Saints and Leeds, despite our 'issues' versus them.

The club has a system that sees them playing in the big games regularly, I'm not sure I see a system that is not working. Sometimes a Grand Final turns round on a couple of injuries, or a wonder tackle prevents another cup win - this is all the beauty of sport. I see little more than a coach who has served his time and is returning home to Oz.

I applaud local development, all clubs should be taking it seriously, but we seem to set ourselves a really high benchmark versus other sports. 

Yeah I mean bar for a few points in a couple of games Warrington would have won a Super League title by now - so I don't think its an issue that is holding them back massively. That said there is always room for improvement!

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah I mean bar for a few points in a couple of games Warrington would have won a Super League title by now - so I don't think its an issue that is holding them back massively. That said there is always room for improvement!

Indeed - and my post is not to suggest that all is great at Wire, I regularly grumble about some of the things, I have no issues with criticising them, but I find commentary suggesting that there is a fundamental issue at Wire lacking in substance. 

Most of those losses have been excellent sporting battles, as Cup finals should be. Making not far off half of all available finals during that period suggests that the club is doing ok. Now that may not be palatable for some who obsess over which street near the stadium the players come from, but personally I enjoy seeing players signed from everywhere. That isn't to dismiss youth development, every club has a part to play in that, but I don't have an issue with the squad having 4 or 5 locally developed players in it each week. 

When Leeds won the Challenge Cup last year they had 5 players graduated through their academy (including Luke Gale who played much of his career elsewhere). Salford had 1.

5 is the number Wire had when they won it in 2019 (Saints had 7). 

*disclaimer, my numbers could easily be wrong, it was a quick skim over the lists!

 

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Indeed - and my post is not to suggest that all is great at Wire, I regularly grumble about some of the things, I have no issues with criticising them, but I find commentary suggesting that there is a fundamental issue at Wire lacking in substance. 

Most of those losses have been excellent sporting battles, as Cup finals should be. Making not far off half of all available finals during that period suggests that the club is doing ok. Now that may not be palatable for some who obsess over which street near the stadium the players come from, but personally I enjoy seeing players signed from everywhere. That isn't to dismiss youth development, every club has a part to play in that, but I don't have an issue with the squad having 4 or 5 locally developed players in it each week. 

When Leeds won the Challenge Cup last year they had 5 players graduated through their academy (including Luke Gale who played much of his career elsewhere). Salford had 1.

5 is the number Wire had when they won it in 2019 (Saints had 7). 

*disclaimer, my numbers could easily be wrong, it was a quick skim over the lists!

 

Yeah I mean I really should have put "should" with regards to Warrington winning a Super League title by now. I don't think there is a fundamental flaw at Warrington from the outside, they've just never cracked it at Old Trafford (and if I was to compare them to a Premier League side I'd say Tottenham because they too seem to have a problem of just not being able to cross the line).

Youth development is all fantastic but it should be seen in perspective. It will occasionally produce brilliance, it will often produce average, in the end many players are there to supplement the squad in a sustainable fashion. From the outside, of all the things to beat Wire with, their academy doesn't strike me as the obvious choice.

[Davo5]

1 hour ago, bobbruce said:

United clearly had a terrible first half to the season and kicked on once he changed his mind early in the new year. Fergie himself thinks it was the biggest mistake of his career announcing his retirement. 

Nope they had a bad period around November before going on a winning run in December/Jan before Fergy backtracked,Maybe it did have an effect on some players but the club hardly fell off a cliff is my point and comparing Fergie with a coach who has been at a club for a relatively short period isn’t a good comparison.

[Lowdesert]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

You are part of this thread, feel free to suggest a BAME coach.

Could be wrong but I thought Dave Plange was coach at Warrington some years ago.

 

[Oxford]

Judging by the length of this thread the Wolves are the new Bulls.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Could be wrong but I thought Dave Plange was coach at Warrington some years ago.

 

Yep, I didn't bother given the post the serious answer it deserved.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

If it came down to Wane or Powell (as the rumours/speculation seem to suggest) who would Wire fans prefer? 

[Saint Toppy]

18 hours ago, Dave T said:

There does appear to be an over-stating of the 'issues' that Wire have. 

Since 2009 we have won 2 LLS, Played in 4 Grand Finals (winning zero), Played in 6 Cup Finals, winning 4. That aint a bad return, and whilst people will naturally point to the Final losses, they are just Rugby losses - not necessarily an outcome of issues at the club. I mean we don't look at Saints' 5 straight Grand Final losses and suggest that they had a fundamental issue.

The Grand Final losses by Wire (and Cup losses) were all close games - 3 of them were by 8pts or less, with 1 by 14, and the Cups by 6 and 2 points. These were all games where we competed well and the games could have gone either way. These were just 80 minute losses. On the way to some of these finals we knocked out the likes of Saints and Leeds, despite our 'issues' versus them.

The club has a system that sees them playing in the big games regularly, I'm not sure I see a system that is not working. Sometimes a Grand Final turns round on a couple of injuries, or a wonder tackle prevents another cup win - this is all the beauty of sport. I see little more than a coach who has served his time and is returning home to Oz.

I applaud local development, all clubs should be taking it seriously, but we seem to set ourselves a really high benchmark versus other sports. 

Interesting that you see it that way, certainly many Saints fans see it differently.

In 2007 they still had a very good team, just had a bad day at the office in the GF. From 2008 onwards the squad saw a gradual loss of most of their top quality stalwarts like Long, Cunningham, Pryce etc. and this coincided with the club not really investing in the squad. By their own admission their main focus was on getting the new stadium built so investment was put towards that rather than the squad. Yes they still made the GF but the team got gradually weaker year after year. Look at the 2010 team, it was woeful with Foster & Lomax as the wingers, Wilkin & Matty Smith as the halves, Bryn Hargreaves at prop, Flannery at LF and the likes of Dixon & Emmett on the bench. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Interesting that you see it that way, certainly many Saints fans see it differently.

In 2007 they still had a very good team, just had a bad day at the office in the GF. From 2008 onwards the squad saw a gradual loss of most of their top quality stalwarts like Long, Cunningham, Pryce etc. and this coincided with the club not really investing in the squad. By their own admission their main focus was on getting the new stadium built so investment was put towards that rather than the squad. Yes they still made the GF but the team got gradually weaker year after year. Look at the 2010 team, it was woeful with Foster & Lomax as the wingers, Wilkin & Matty Smith as the halves, Bryn Hargreaves at prop, Flannery at LF and the likes of Dixon & Emmett on the bench. 

But surely having a poor team means the system doesn't work well enough? 

Can't have it all ways. It suggests that any system can provide winners and losers. 

[Davo5]

3 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

If it came down to Wane or Powell (as the rumours/speculation seem to suggest) who would Wire fans prefer? 

One would be a natural fit,the other would win Grand Finals.