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International RL Eligibility - Update


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On 20/02/2021 at 13:41, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Thanks for this. Scotland Rugby Union have 15 players in their Six Nations squad born outside of Scotland, yet it’s not seen as an issue at all. I have no idea why some think playing a weak side of Scottish born players in the Rugby League World Cup will achieve anything, it’s results on the field that matter.

Good spot.

Grandparents is too far for me.

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13 hours ago, Pickford said:

Sam Herron makes it four. 

It's a start, but Langpark's comment about "accent" is relevant here.

A couple of guys born in Scotland but having spent their whole lives in West Yorkshire and talking like they are from Keighley is not in any way going to entice the Scottish public to come along and support the team. 

Why not? Because the sport is not played in Scotland (with the greatest respect to Blackrooks from Tillicoultry on here) to any visible degree. It is seen as an English sport played in obscure English towns that nobody has ever heard of. I say that as former Edinburgh Eagles player, who was delighted to see them forging ahead on the Euro XIIIs and equally delighted to see them using Scottish players, given that a couple of years ago the club was fielding 13 Fijians in some games.

It is pretty funny seeing people on here saying that GB is not "England" because Lachlan Coote (an Aussie, who plays in England) is there representing Scotland. Lachlan Coote (and almost every other professional who plays for Wales or Scotland) are also qualified for England via residence through their years at a SuperLeague club. So in reality, nobody misses out on England selection just because they are Welsh, or Scottish! 

If Scotland insist on throwing together a team to play in World Cups (potentially at the expense of a nation who are genuinely trying to develop Rugby League LONG TERM) then fine, but don't expect Scottish crowds turning up to support them - it just isn't going to happen. 

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1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

It's a start, but Langpark's comment about "accent" is relevant here.

A couple of guys born in Scotland but having spent their whole lives in West Yorkshire and talking like they are from Keighley is not in any way going to entice the Scottish public to come along and support the team. 

Why not? Because the sport is not played in Scotland (with the greatest respect to Blackrooks from Tillicoultry on here) to any visible degree. It is seen as an English sport played in obscure English towns that nobody has ever heard of. I say that as former Edinburgh Eagles player, who was delighted to see them forging ahead on the Euro XIIIs and equally delighted to see them using Scottish players, given that a couple of years ago the club was fielding 13 Fijians in some games.

It is pretty funny seeing people on here saying that GB is not "England" because Lachlan Coote (an Aussie, who plays in England) is there representing Scotland. Lachlan Coote (and almost every other professional who plays for Wales or Scotland) are also qualified for England via residence through their years at a SuperLeague club. So in reality, nobody misses out on England selection just because they are Welsh, or Scottish! 

If Scotland insist on throwing together a team to play in World Cups (potentially at the expense of a nation who are genuinely trying to develop Rugby League LONG TERM) then fine, but don't expect Scottish crowds turning up to support them - it just isn't going to happen. 

I agree with what you're saying. 

I was simply pointing out another Scottish born player, along with the previously mentioned Russell, Luckley and Scott from the He Can Play For list. 

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3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Good spot.

Grandparents is too far for me.

I don't think so. There are a lot of Pacific islanders in Aus and NZ who keep strong links to the islands through the generations. Just like there are plenty of 2nd, 3rd plus generation of Irish in America and the UK who are incredibly proud of their heritage. 

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45 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

I don't think so. There are a lot of Pacific islanders in Aus and NZ who keep strong links to the islands through the generations. Just like there are plenty of 2nd, 3rd plus generation of Irish in America and the UK who are incredibly proud of their heritage. 

And 2nd and 3rd generation Scottish and Irish living in England who are proud of their heritage.

To me the question isn’t should we abolish the Grandparent rule (it’s no all international sports have it) the question is how do we get domestic players from Ireland, Scotland or wherever good enough so they are picked ahead of players qualifying through grandparents because they are better players not because of where they are born.

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4 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

And 2nd and 3rd generation Scottish and Irish living in England who are proud of their heritage.

To me the question isn’t should we abolish the Grandparent rule (it’s no all international sports have it) the question is how do we get domestic players from Ireland, Scotland or wherever good enough so they are picked ahead of players qualifying through grandparents because they are better players not because of where they are born.

It's hard for domestic players to get selected ahead of full time/semi pros. There is such a limited amount of professional spots in league it's not really feasible hence why I wouldn't be against a certain amount of domestic players having to be selected. Even if its a small number like say 3.

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28 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

It's hard for domestic players to get selected ahead of full time/semi pros. There is such a limited amount of professional spots in league it's not really feasible hence why I wouldn't be against a certain amount of domestic players having to be selected. Even if its a small number like say 3.

The aim can’t be to pick Internationals from an amateur domestic league, it needs to be to get players from the amateur domestic league to move up to the semi professional and professional leagues. Like Elliott Kear, Ben Flower, Gill Dudson, Rhys Evans, Dave Scott, and the Irish lad at Huddersfield have done, we just need to make it happen in bigger numbers.

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Just now, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The aim can’t be to pick Internationals from an amateur domestic league, it needs to be to get players from the amateur domestic league to move up to the semi professional and professional leagues. Like Regan, Grace, Elliott Kear, Ben Flower, Gill Dudson, Rhys Evans, Dave Scott, and the Irish lad at Huddersfield have done, we just need to make it happen in bigger numbers.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The aim can’t be to pick Internationals from an amateur domestic league, it needs to be to get players from the amateur domestic league to move up to the semi professional and professional leagues. Like Elliott Kear, Ben Flower, Gill Dudson, Rhys Evans, Dave Scott, and the Irish lad at Huddersfield have done, we just need to make it happen in bigger numbers.

Of course yes but again there is simply not enough professional  spots in league for that to happen. Playing semi pro rugby in another country in the lower leagues isn't very attractive to most people.

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5 hours ago, Keith989 said:

I don't think so. There are a lot of Pacific islanders in Aus and NZ who keep strong links to the islands through the generations. Just like there are plenty of 2nd, 3rd plus generation of Irish in America and the UK who are incredibly proud of their heritage. 

Again, kidding yourself.  How can a bloke who finds out yesterday, suddenly be "incredibly proud" to the degree of someone who is born and bred there.  This word "proud" gets abused a lot as it is not quantifiable.  Let's say players had to sit tests (great idea by the way), for the Italians, Greeks etc. it could be a very simple language test, for Lachlan Coote it could be general knowledge.  Do you think he could name 10 towns in Scotland, for example?  I think we'd pretty soon find out which ones are "proud" and which just want to play in a World Cup.

5 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

And 2nd and 3rd generation Scottish and Irish living in England who are proud of their heritage.

To me the question isn’t should we abolish the Grandparent rule (it’s no all international sports have it) the question is how do we get domestic players from Ireland, Scotland or wherever good enough so they are picked ahead of players qualifying through grandparents because they are better players not because of where they are born.

As I have said before, abolishing the grandparent rule is not an option, unless we want international RL and World Cup reduced to 5-6 nations competing.

You are right, we should aim up and that is why I am a firm believer that quotas are a really good starting point and a good incentive for countries to invest in developing more of their own players.  To give an example, this upcoming World Cup, how much money will Ireland and Scotland spend flying players out from Australia?  Let's say it is 10,000, to use a round number.  That is 10,000 less that is being invested in RL in Ireland.  So if quotas initially (slowly) come in, and nations are put on notice that the number of heritage players allowed each WC will be forcibly reduced, then countries will have no choice but to invest in their own players if they want to remain competitive.  To me it is sad that it needs to be forced, but clearly, they are not doing it by their own free will.

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8 hours ago, langpark said:

 

Again, kidding yourself.  How can a bloke who finds out yesterday, suddenly be "incredibly proud" to the degree of someone who is born and bred there.  This word "proud" gets abused a lot as it is not quantifiable.  Let's say players had to sit tests (great idea by the way), for the Italians, Greeks etc. it could be a very simple language test, for Lachlan Coote it could be general knowledge.  Do you think he could name 10 towns in Scotland, for example?  I think we'd pretty soon find out which ones are "proud" and which just want to play in a World Cup.

As I have said before, abolishing the grandparent rule is not an option, unless we want international RL and World Cup reduced to 5-6 nations competing.

You are right, we should aim up and that is why I am a firm believer that quotas are a really good starting point and a good incentive for countries to invest in developing more of their own players.  To give an example, this upcoming World Cup, how much money will Ireland and Scotland spend flying players out from Australia?  Let's say it is 10,000, to use a round number.  That is 10,000 less that is being invested in RL in Ireland.  So if quotas initially (slowly) come in, and nations are put on notice that the number of heritage players allowed each WC will be forcibly reduced, then countries will have no choice but to invest in their own players if they want to remain competitive.  To me it is sad that it needs to be forced, but clearly, they are not doing it by their own free will.

Hardly "kidding myself" when I look at the tears running down the faces of pacific island heritage players when their national anthem is playing. Are these guys not proud when they take massive pay cuts defecting from Aus/NZ to play for next to nothing? You can't just pick out one example and change the rule. 

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17 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

Hardly "kidding myself" when I look at the tears running down the faces of pacific island heritage players when their national anthem is playing. Are these guys not proud when they take massive pay cuts defecting from Aus/NZ to play for next to nothing? You can't just pick out one example and change the rule. 

Kevin Naiqama, I assume you are talking about.  Of course, I am not doubting his passion at all, though he was never in the mix for Australia.  The only person that really fits your description of turning down a tier 1 nation is Jason Taumalolo (and possibly Andrew Fifita).

Pat Richards?  Luke Ricketson?  No doubt you will call them "proud" Irishmen.

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1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The aim can’t be to pick Internationals from an amateur domestic league, it needs to be to get players from the amateur domestic league to move up to the semi professional and professional leagues. Like Elliott Kear, Ben Flower, Gill Dudson, Rhys Evans, Dave Scott, and the Irish lad at Huddersfield have done, we just need to make it happen in bigger numbers.

Ive thought it for years, and said it. Whether others think its a good idea is for debate. I'm a big advocate of salary cap 'exemptions' if a team recruits an Irish, Welsh, Scottish home born player, and that player is in the first team SL squad (having come through the system).

Likewise with the French. I'd give dispensation to any French born player to encourage the first team to flourish with that talent.

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8 hours ago, langpark said:

Kevin Naiqama, I assume you are talking about.  Of course, I am not doubting his passion at all, though he was never in the mix for Australia.  The only person that really fits your description of turning down a tier 1 nation is Jason Taumalolo (and possibly Andrew Fifita).

Pat Richards?  Luke Ricketson?  No doubt you will call them "proud" Irishmen.

You haven't really countered anything here so I presume you kind of agree. I've given my views on the Irish team plenty of times on here so no need to get into that again.

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1 minute ago, Keith989 said:

You haven't really countered anything here so I presume you kind of agree. I've given my views on the Irish team plenty of times on here so no need to get into that again.

Of course I agree that many heritage players are proud of their heritage.  But I see it being said and implied a lot, that anyone who pulls on a particular jersey is proud (and in many cases, people have said: just as proud as anyone), that is just not true.  A big % of them are just there because they it's an opportunity to play some extra matches. 

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17 minutes ago, langpark said:

Of course I agree that many heritage players are proud of their heritage.  But I see it being said and implied a lot, that anyone who pulls on a particular jersey is proud (and in many cases, people have said: just as proud as anyone), that is just not true.  A big % of them are just there because they it's an opportunity to play some extra matches. 

Oh yeah absolutely, I guess I'm saying that we shouldn't punish the guys who are genuinely proud and want to play for their heritage because there are others who only do it for the free holiday. 

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Anyone who says that heritage players aren't as proud as born and bred in X are idiots.

Say that to some heritage players and you'll likely be drinking through a straw.

How about we stop telling people how they feel in every walk of life? If you feel passionate enough to play a game as brutal as rugby league for a country you identify with and qualify for then you're a better person than the naysayers on these here forums.

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3 hours ago, Pulga said:

Anyone who says that heritage players aren't as proud as born and bred in X are idiots.

Say that to some heritage players and you'll likely be drinking through a straw.

How about we stop telling people how they feel in every walk of life? If you feel passionate enough to play a game as brutal as rugby league for a country you identify with and qualify for then you're a better person than the naysayers on these here forums.

Usually the words of those with zero domestic activity and 100% reliant on heritage players 👍

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23 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

And 2nd and 3rd generation Scottish and Irish living in England who are proud of their heritage.

To me the question isn’t should we abolish the Grandparent rule (it’s no all international sports have it) the question is how do we get domestic players from Ireland, Scotland or wherever good enough so they are picked ahead of players qualifying through grandparents because they are better players not because of where they are born.

No, all international sports do not have a Grandparent rule.  At least four (handball, basketball, hockey and ice hockey) don't allow any sort of heritage qualification whatsoever, they only allow players with citizenship (either by birth or naturalization) in a country to represent it.  Lacrosse requires that 19 of a team's 23 players hold that country's passport but allows up to 4 other players who meet one of five other conditions to be granted a waiver as a non-citizens.

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4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

No, all international sports do not have a Grandparent rule.  At least four (handball, basketball, hockey and ice hockey) don't allow any sort of heritage qualification whatsoever, they only allow players with citizenship (either by birth or naturalization) in a country to represent it.  Lacrosse requires that 19 of a team's 23 players hold that country's passport but allows up to 4 other players who meet one of five other conditions to be granted a waiver as a non-citizens.

You have just named 5 sports that have a non existent international calendar and to be honest not a lot of people care about at that level...Lacrosse??🤔🤔

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16 hours ago, Pulga said:

Anyone who says that heritage players aren't as proud as born and bred in X are idiots.

Say that to some heritage players and you'll likely be drinking through a straw.

How about we stop telling people how they feel in every walk of life? If you feel passionate enough to play a game as brutal as rugby league for a country you identify with and qualify for then you're a better person than the naysayers on these here forums.

I'm sure they are passionate about being part of their group of teammates, all focussed together.  All part of the great world cup experience.    But if someone was born in their own country, say Australia, if their father was born in Australia, AND they were good enough to play for Australia, then all this nonsense about 'heritage' would go out of the window.

What we have in RU as an example is we see what are effectively South African mercenaries, people who have no heritage at all... just what is laughably called residency.  Scottish RU home grown playing levels must be hollowed out given their current squad.

To be come naturalized may be different, and if a parent was born elsewhere can be considerable.

But current registration rules are a joke.  But they exist and we can and must work with it.

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15 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I'm sure they are passionate about being part of their group of teammates, all focussed together.  All part of the great world cup experience.    But if someone was born in their own country, say Australia, if their father was born in Australia, AND they were good enough to play for Australia, then all this nonsense about 'heritage' would go out of the window.

What we have in RU as an example is we see what are effectively South African mercenaries, people who have no heritage at all... just what is laughably called residency.  Scottish RU home grown playing levels must be hollowed out given their current squad.

To be come naturalized may be different, and if a parent was born elsewhere can be considerable.

But current registration rules are a joke.  But they exist and we can and must work with it.

But its not just RL - Look at football and say a country like Southern Ireland, they have pillaged anyone who can kick a ball to try and compete at international level. Cricket has always been the same and UK athletes has very few true Brits but as they are successful no one cares.

Make the rules the same for every sport but we can't just have a go at RL as there are far more sports doing the same.

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1 hour ago, Mr Frisky said:

You have just named 5 sports that have a non existent international calendar and to be honest not a lot of people care about at that level...Lacrosse??🤔🤔

You're completely mistaken there.  They all have regular World Cups/Championships and handball, basketball and hockey all have regular continental championships for all the inhabited continents in addition to that, something which doesn't exist for even one continent in either rugby union or rugby league.  Lacrosse and ice hockey operate their World Championships on a tiered system with teams able to move between the tiers based on their performance; the last lacrosse world championship involved 46 countries and its ice hockey counterpart involved 44.

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6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You're completely mistaken there.  They all have regular World Cups/Championships and handball, basketball and hockey all have regular continental championships for all the inhabited continents in addition to that, something which doesn't exist for even one continent in either rugby union or rugby league.  Lacrosse and ice hockey operate their World Championships on a tiered system with teams able to move between the tiers based on their performance; the last lacrosse world championship involved 46 countries and its ice hockey counterpart involved 44.

The thing is very few care about those sports here. Bar the odd person they aren't even on the radar. When people are comparing RL to other sports it is the sports that people here are familiar with and follow. All of them have elibility rules pretty similar to RL.

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8 minutes ago, Damien said:

The thing is very few care about those sports here. Bar the odd person they aren't even on the radar. When people are comparing RL to other sports it is the sports that people here are familiar with and follow. All of them have elibility rules pretty similar to RL.

Whether they care about those sports or not is irrelevant.  Measured by the number of countries involved basketball is number 2 in the world after soccer and handball number 3.  Four of the five are regular sports in the Olympics too.

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