RFL & Super League to reunite

[whatmichaelsays]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

As with all of these things, we need to understand what it is we need to fix. What is the root cause of any issues. Without understanding that, you will generally implement the wrong solutions. 

100% this. 

Elstone and the SL/RFL split was the wrong solution, put forward by people who didn't actually understand what problem they were trying to solve. 

I've got little faith that the SL clubs will agree on what the problem that needs solving actually is - I think there is too much division and disparity to reach a concensus on that and, frankly, I don't think enough of the required skills are "in the room" - but I equally doubt that the RFL can overcome those issues either. 

[Damien]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

As with all of these things, we need to understand what it is we need to fix. What is the root cause of any issues. Without understanding that, you will generally implement the wrong solutions. 

Quite true. The trouble is there are widely ranging opinions on that, as there are for the ways to fix them.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

100% this. 

Elstone and the SL/RFL split was the wrong solution, put forward by people who didn't actually understand what problem they were trying to solve. 

I've got little faith that the SL clubs will agree on what the problem that needs solving actually is - I think there is too much division and disparity to reach a concensus on that and, frankly, I don't think enough of the required skills are "in the room" - but I equally doubt that the RFL can overcome those issues either. 

Yep, I'm still not sure what the actual problem was that we were solving for. 

If it was simply because the SL clubs felt shafted over the distribution of the last TV deal and changes to S8's - then that could have been addressed directly with changes to the governance around that, without going for this vanity breakaway. 

I've always been supportive of this breakaway to remove the excuses that clubs have (It's the RFL's fault) - but as we have seen, it hasn't exactly led to the brave new world we were promised. 

If the issues were around financial distribution, commercial performance and structure ownership, these things could all be addressed under governance of  the RFL.

I do think that if there is another change, we do just need to address all of these issues, with new governance in place rather than going back to the old model.

It needs mature, knowledgeable adults in the room.

[whatmichaelsays]

19 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yep, I'm still not sure what the actual problem was that we were solving for. 

If it was simply because the SL clubs felt shafted over the distribution of the last TV deal and changes to S8's - then that could have been addressed directly with changes to the governance around that, without going for this vanity breakaway. 

I've always been supportive of this breakaway to remove the excuses that clubs have (It's the RFL's fault) - but as we have seen, it hasn't exactly led to the brave new world we were promised. 

If the issues were around financial distribution, commercial performance and structure ownership, these things could all be addressed under governance of  the RFL.

I do think that if there is another change, we do just need to address all of these issues, with new governance in place rather than going back to the old model.

It needs mature, knowledgeable adults in the room.

I too was happy to see the RFL removed as something of a lightning rod for the game's problems, but I equally supported Hetherington's stance - who was very much against this from the outset - that the issues were rooted in underperformance at club level. 

I've posted plenty of times about my view on where I think the problems lie and what needs solving - and we've discussed that between us before. I think Elstone was brought in to solve a problem of salesmanship when that was never really the issue. The problem was the underlying value of the 'Super League' brand and its properties, a problem that was rooted in the declining audience that the game has. 

I think there were some good signs that Elstone understood that early on (the rebrand, the appointment of a Creative Director), and it would have been interesting to see how that work would have continued had it not been for the pandemic.

In many respects I want to think that Elstone understood the problem of audience and the value of the brand, but was hampered by the clubs not buying into what he was trying to do. At least that would mean that Elstone was introduced for the right reasons. 

Whatever happens next, I don't think you're going to get that unified vision for Super League. If you asked the 12 SL chairmen what their vision for SL was in the post-Elstone era, I think you'd get close to 12 different answers. 

[Man of Kent]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I too was happy to see the RFL removed as something of a lightning rod for the game's problems, but I equally supported Hetherington's stance - who was very much against this from the outset - that the issues were rooted in underperformance at club level. 

I've posted plenty of times about my view on where I think the problems lie and what needs solving - and we've discussed that between us before. I think Elstone was brought in to solve a problem of salesmanship when that was never really the issue. The problem was the underlying value of the 'Super League' brand and its properties, a problem that was rooted in the declining audience that the game has. 

I think there were some good signs that Elstone understood that early on (the rebrand, the appointment of a Creative Director), and it would have been interesting to see how that work would have continued had it not been for the pandemic.

In many respects I want to think that Elstone understood the problem of audience and the value of the brand, but was hampered by the clubs not buying into what he was trying to do. At least that would mean that Elstone was introduced for the right reasons. 

Whatever happens next, I don't think you're going to get that unified vision for Super League. If you asked the 12 SL chairmen what their vision for SL was in the post-Elstone era, I think you'd get close to 12 different answers. 

I thought the point was to increase the profile of Super League with a view to securing a 'good' TV deal? Things were demonstrably improving (ratings, social media eyeballs etc.) but Covid has meant that's gone for a burton and Elstone's imminent departure.  

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I thought the point was to increase the profile of Super League with a view to securing a 'good' TV deal? Things were demonstrably improving (ratings, social media eyeballs etc.) but Covid has meant that's gone for a burton and Elstone's imminent departure.  

Quite, as before it was felt that too much attention was being paid to risking a third of super league every season and the much lower profile second division - to the detriment of Super League itself.

[Man of Kent]

22 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Quite, as before it was felt that too much attention was being paid to risking a third of super league every season and the much lower profile second division - to the detriment of Super League itself.

Aye. It can't be proven, of course, but I strongly suspect if Covid never happened, Elstone would not have resigned and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Aye. It can't be proven, of course, but I strongly suspect if Covid never happened, Elstone would not have resigned and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Its definitely been a huge blow to his project, whatever that was.

[DI Keith Fowler]

34 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its definitely been a huge blow to his project, whatever that was.

What might have been?

[The Future is League]

3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

£3m a year, that’s unbelievable, is that solely for Elstone and his team? 

He didn't even bring in enough money to the game before covid to cover him and his staff wages before.

People who say covid bulldozed his plans, well i say how long was he in his position before coivd struck?

Can any tell me the positives he brought to the game before covid?

[Hela Wigmen]

9 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

He didn't even bring in enough money to the game before covid to cover him and his staff wages before.

People who say covid bulldozed his plans, well i say how long was he in his position before coivd struck?

Can any tell me the positives he brought to the game before covid?

The onfield changes of the introduction of the shot clock definitely worked. Admittedly, a very small change and one of very few positives overall. 

[Angelic Cynic]

10 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

The onfield changes of the introduction of the shot clock definitely worked. Admittedly, a very small change and one of very few positives overall. 

Copied ideas implemented from the NRL - Not required in his terms of employment. 

McManus states the intentions here  - https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/16285950.mcmanus-gives-backing-new-super-league-ceo-robert-elstone/

Don't think the objectives have been achieved,or got close,in any category.

[Hela Wigmen]

4 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Copied ideas implemented from the NRL - Not required in his terms of employment. 

McManus states the intentions here  - https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/16285950.mcmanus-gives-backing-new-super-league-ceo-robert-elstone/

Don't think the objectives have been achieved,or got close,in any category.

Is there anything particularly wrong with implementing aspects of successful variants of the same sport then? 

In terms of that link, “spectacle” is mentioned by McManus. Implementing shot clocks was an attempt to create a better spectacle and it has resoundingly worked as prior to that, televised games weren’t finishing before 10pm and for many people, attendees of the game and those watching at home, this was an issue. 

 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

I thought the point was to increase the profile of Super League with a view to securing a 'good' TV deal? Things were demonstrably improving (ratings, social media eyeballs etc.) but Covid has meant that's gone for a burton and Elstone's imminent departure.  

Things like "social media eyeballs" and TV ratings don't necessarily show you that your profile is increasing. It maybe, for instance, that the growth in social media engagement was driven largely by the existing audience, whilst I don't think it's unfair to suggest that the announcements around TV ratings came after some very deliberate gerrymandering of the fixture list (that's not an inherently bad thing, but it doesn't show a long-term trend). 

Unfortunately, you have to look a lot deeper than one-off weekends and social media likes and follows to measure whether your national and international profile is growing. 

[Davo5]

28 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

The onfield changes of the introduction of the shot clock definitely worked. Admittedly, a very small change and one of very few positives overall. 

The shot clock,wow that certainly justified his £400k salary.

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

The shot clock,wow that certainly justified his £400k salary.

I’m not defending him. However, it’s one of very, very few positives to take from his tenure and ultimately, his salary does not appear justified by those few and far between positives. 

[Gooleboy]

9 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

The shot clock,wow that certainly justified his £400k salary.

The excitement when that was announced was something else. You realised that a genius been bestowed on the game.

[Rupert Prince]

50 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

He didn't even bring in enough money to the game before covid to cover him and his staff wages before.

People who say covid bulldozed his plans, well i say how long was he in his position before coivd struck?

Can any tell me the positives he brought to the game before covid?

There is very little to be done without investment... but at is a dirty word for you.

The idea at 3 million would be saved by merging is a joke.   The notion that you would get something for nothing is risible.  The work of SL would still need to be managed.  Rimmer would get a pay rise and extra one or two deputies of some sort would be created and the talking shop extended, but leave the lawn untended so we can throw the ball into the longer grass.

[Dave T]

Just now, Rupert Prince said:

There is very little to be done without investment... but at is a dirty word for you.

The idea at 3 million would be saved by merging is a joke.   The notion that you would get something for nothing is risible.  The work of SL would still need to be managed.  Rimmer would get a pay rise and extra one or two deputies of some sort would be created and the talking shop extended, but leave the lawn untended so we can throw the ball into the longer grass.

Yes, the mention of cutting £3m was hopefully poorly worded. The game clearly isn't spending £3m too much. Spending it in different places yes, but cutting completely will not be a good thing for RL.

[Rupert Prince]

17 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

The shot clock,wow that certainly justified his £400k salary.

For the last 12 months his salary has been in half.  Nothing has been done in  the last 12 months because of the virus.  But the suggested TV deal for SL seems a good one.  The fact that its for 1 year may well be because of the virus, the other one is that SKY do not trust the wider game... and why should it - the game is stuck in the past.

The other job that Elstone had was to bring investment into the game.  Here again the game itself, not least the club chairmen, showed themselves to be a poor product to market.  And they have turned their back on it.

[Man of Kent]

25 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Things like "social media eyeballs" and TV ratings don't necessarily show you that your profile is increasing. It maybe, for instance, that the growth in social media engagement was driven largely by the existing audience, whilst I don't think it's unfair to suggest that the announcements around TV ratings came after some very deliberate gerrymandering of the fixture list (that's not an inherently bad thing, but it doesn't show a long-term trend). 

Unfortunately, you have to look a lot deeper than one-off weekends and social media likes and follows to measure whether your national and international profile is growing. 

They were maximising ratings potential, which isn’t worthy of criticism IMO. I think it was going in the right direction pre-Covid but we’re in a different world right now, very much in survival mode.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said:

For the last 12 months his salary has been in half.  Nothing has been done in  the last 12 months because of the virus.  But the suggested TV deal for SL seems a good one.  The fact that its for 1 year may well be because of the virus, the other one is that SKY do not trust the wider game... and why should it - the game is stuck in the past.

The other job that Elstone had was to bring investment into the game.  Here again the game itself, not least the club chairmen, showed themselves to be a poor product to market.  And they have turned their back on it.

Where are you getting that Sky have offered a 1 year deal for SL rights? I've seen you mention it a couple of times, but I don't think I have read it elsewhere...

[The storm]

17 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

That's surely going to be a major sticking point. Perhaps that is why chairmen like Pearson and Carter have advocated for a 6 man Super League board to run the competition.

And there we have 2 clubs in Hull and Wakefield who are rapidly being caught by championship clubs 

 

Both Hull and Wakefield are consistent under achievers and Hull Kr with Paul Lakin at the helm are rapidly becoming the "go to" club in Hull. 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, The storm said:

And there we have 2 clubs in Hull and Wakefield who are rapidly being caught by championship clubs 

 

Both Hull and Wakefield are consistent under achievers and Hull Kr with Paul Lakin at the helm are rapidly becoming the "go to" club in Hull. 

"Go To" for Craig Harrison's players yes absolutely!

[Rupert Prince]

30 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Where are you getting that Sky have offered a 1 year deal for SL rights? I've seen you mention it a couple of times, but I don't think I have read it elsewhere...

Well Man of Kent raised it on this blog. January 31st.   So I have taken it from that.  30 million. I believe the comment was that SKY have the game on trial for 12 months. Happy to be corrected on that.

To be fair there were other rumours, but they I believe were before Christmas.  Again I am happy to be corrected if things have moved on, but if you and others are basing ideas and comments that are not aware of this then people need a wake up call.

Christmas!  That feels like a long time ago.