graveyard johnny Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 there is a person who comes in our pub (when its open) who has turned from a girl to a boy - they never stop going on about it - constantly pulling up their polo shirt to show their chest where the removals have took place - ok - fine for a while - but then it never stops - to the point of "no one is interested" - "shut up about it now" the only person making an issue of this is you by constantly banging on about it! see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Sorry but what you're hoping for there is utopia and it's never gonna happen - ever. You have to accept some people just will not like you, for a myriad of reasons. Saying things are pretty much the same as they used to be is to totally ignore all the changes that have happened in recent years regarding people's views on sexuality. Look at the soaps for example, what used to be a big talking point (eg gay couple in a soap) doesn't even register now - you don't even think anything of it. No, things aren't perfect but being gay isn't the big deal or hindrance it was not that many years ago. That's pretty incredible progress, not to be dismissed because a very very very small percentage of people don't see it like that. It's not enough to be 'tolerant'. Tolerance is the absolute barest minimum. The people who remember - as opposed to having to find out - that there really was outrage all across the media that EastEnders had the softest, most vanilla, gay man in it weren't even born in time for the disaster of the RLWC in 2000. So credit to people like Keighley who are prepared to be visibly welcoming as opposed to thinking, "Oh well, no one's going to punch you in the face, and only a few people might abuse you to your face" is even close to enough. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 25, 2021 Author Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said: there is a person who comes in our pub (when its open) who has turned from a girl to a boy - they never stop going on about it - constantly pulling up their polo shirt to show their chest where the removals have took place - ok - fine for a while - but then it never stops - to the point of "no one is interested" - "shut up about it now" the only person making an issue of this is you by constantly banging on about it! I'll take THINGS THAT NEVER HAPPENED for one hundred pounds, please Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DI Keith Fowler Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Just now, gingerjon said: It's not enough to be 'tolerant'. Tolerance is the absolute barest minimum. The people who remember - as opposed to having to find out - that there really was outrage all across the media that EastEnders had the softest, most vanilla, gay man in it weren't even born in time for the disaster of the RLWC in 2000. So credit to people like Keighley who are prepared to be visibly welcoming as opposed to thinking, "Oh well, no one's going to punch you in the face, and only a few people might abuse you to your face" is even close to enough. Widnes had Rainbow Laces as a sponsor in our last year in Super League. Spoke to quite a few people who ordinarily would buy a shirt who said they wouldn't as a result. And a few more who never buy shirts but really wanted people to know they wouldn't get one. I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graveyard johnny Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 20 minutes ago, gingerjon said: I'll take THINGS THAT NEVER HAPPENED for one hundred pounds, please calling me a liar now? thanks- i wouldn't go as far as to name people specifically - but you really need to get out more - can't remember the persons female name but the male name is now callum (looks like ronnie barker) - married to a female who was once married to a male - i know you don't like me gingerjon but i don't lie on here- why would i? see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 17 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said: calling me a liar now? thanks- i wouldn't go as far as to name people specifically - but you really need to get out more - can't remember the persons female name but the male name is now callum - married to a female who was once married to a male - i know you don't like me gingerjon but i don't lie on here- why would i? It's par for the course with John , if it doesn't suit him , call you a liar , done it with me , that's why I don't engage with him anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graveyard johnny Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: It's par for the course with John , if it doesn't suit him , call you a liar , done it with me , that's why I don't engage with him anymore i know, ostrich head in the sand mentality - cant see it so its not there- quite sad really - there is a few here like that see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spidey Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 42 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said: there is a person who comes in our pub (when its open) who has turned from a girl to a boy - they never stop going on about it - constantly pulling up their polo shirt to show their chest where the removals have took place - ok - fine for a while - but then it never stops - to the point of "no one is interested" - "shut up about it now" the only person making an issue of this is you by constantly banging on about it! Your local has the most diverse bunch of people I’ve ever heard of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 You cannot insulate RL from the world and the people in it , fortunately they are very few and far between Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 31 minutes ago, Johnoco said: You are taking the handful of people who might actually punch someone for being gay as some sort of standard. That's not borne out in reality though, as demonstrated by the acceptance of gay people almost everywhere. The people who might do this, will do it regardless and if not that will find another reason. 24 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: You cannot insulate RL from the world and the people in it , fortunately they are very few and far between Once again, with respect, these are the types of comments that lead to zero action being taken and holding the sport back in making progress. "It is society and not Rugby League" means we can wash our hands of any evidence of homophobia or bigotry in our sport and simply attribute it to human nature. We can do something. And that is to make a commitment to investigate every issue and punish every single person who is guilty. We have a chance to lead and drive change, not just accept it will happen. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Would-Be Halfback Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 I’ll try to keep this brief and then leave it at that I think, because frankly I don’t really enjoy being told my life experiences don’t count because things were worse in the 80s, or (bizarrely) that people with severe learning disabilities have it harder(?!). Firstly, whilst I never actually talked about feeling physically threatened, some have still tried to claim like it never happens anyway. And without wanting to drag this away from RL and into the murky realms of a politics thread, I feel I need to point out that studies even within the last year have shown that around half of all gay people in the UK fear holding hands in public because they worry about the reaction they’ll get, and LGBT+ related hate crime has risen for 2 years running. Tell the 15,000 victims of homophobic hate crime last year alone that it doesn’t matter because it rarely happens anyway, and it’s well within acceptable limits actually. You don’t have to worry that if you kiss your girlfriend or wife in public that you might just happen to do so in front of the 1 in 1000 who will decide to kick your head for it. I do. And so do many, many others. Secondly, away from talk of assaults and actual hate crime, I specifically stated that I was talking about “low-level homophobia”. The sort of thing that many straight people won’t even notice, let alone do anything about. Such as words like poof, fag, queer, gay etc all being used as casual, catch-all insults and go completely unchallenged. As well as the regular jokes about gays and gay sex (some straight men seem absolutely obsessed with what we do to each other for some reason). You’ll notice I’m trying to personalise this whenever possible. Not that long since a teammate of mine, before I came out, was defending his use of homophobic language to me because he ‘knew’ that I wasn’t gay, so it didn’t matter. You go through that - someone justifying their intolerance straight to your face without even realising it. And leaving you feeling completely powerless to respond honestly. You go though that, and then tell me it’s not a problem anymore. You spend years hearing the same jokes, comments and attitudes repeated every week, knowing that they’re about you, and can’t tell anyone. Hearing the same implied message over and over again, that someone like you doesn’t fit in here. Again, most of the people who do this won’t even realise the potential impact they can have. It’s just banter, or no one here is gay anyway, so it doesn’t matter. Well, it matters to me. And although I would never claim to speak for all Queer people, I know several others who it felt the same way to the point they stopped playing. Which brings me back to my original point: having more LGBT people involved at the top of the game feels significant to someone like me. Seeing Keegan Hirst talk about being gay was huge in my coming to terms with my sexuality a few years ago. Seeing someone, from West Yorkshire, similar accent to me, a middle unit player, like me, who looks and acts nothing like the stereotype, like me, talking about being gay, and a professional rugby player helped me to realise that it was OK, I was “allowed” to be gay. Because, whilst gay people are far more represented in the media than they used to be, seeing one who was anything like me, was very rare, and when they were it was often as a joke or in a “you didn’t expect that did you?” kind of way. Which still just reinforces stereotypes, just in a different way. i know this has been a lot longer than I intended, so for anyone who has read all they way through, thanks. And all I ask is that anyone who’s immediate reaction to this story is to downplay it or question why it matters, just examine your own attitudes. Just question why you think that. You may know gay people, but have you ever talked to them about this sort of thing, about any micro-aggressions they face? Or do you just assume they don’t get them because they don’t mention them to you? Because evidence says they happen, people just don’t tend to talk about them often. We’re more likely to talk about them amongst ourselves than to our straight friends. i think that will do. And....post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, Johnoco said: I don't advocate doing nothing though, if somebody has abused somebody for (in this case) their sexuality, then they should have to face the music. That's not the same thing as saying nothing has changed and gay people aren't in a much better position in society than they were, say 20 years ago. This keeps being ignored but I absolutely don't have an issue with gay people. I have been involved in physical violence while defending some (when it really was difficult to come out). Let me assure you that I have absolutely no inclination that you have an issue with gay people. Far from it. But I am of the opinion that relying on saying we have come a long way excuses us in taking action today. I am reminded of when a group of BAME players recorded emotional videos detailing their experiences in the game. We all wrung our hands at the time but has anything changed in the year since? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Would-Be Halfback said: I’ll try to keep this brief and then leave it at that I think, because frankly I don’t really enjoy being told my life experiences don’t count because things were worse in the 80s, or (bizarrely) that people with severe learning disabilities have it harder(?!). Firstly, whilst I never actually talked about feeling physically threatened, some have still tried to claim like it never happens anyway. And without wanting to drag this away from RL and into the murky realms of a politics thread, I feel I need to point out that studies even within the last year have shown that around half of all gay people in the UK fear holding hands in public because they worry about the reaction they’ll get, and LGBT+ related hate crime has risen for 2 years running. Tell the 15,000 victims of homophobic hate crime last year alone that it doesn’t matter because it rarely happens anyway, and it’s well within acceptable limits actually. You don’t have to worry that if you kiss your girlfriend or wife in public that you might just happen to do so in front of the 1 in 1000 who will decide to kick your head for it. I do. And so do many, many others. Secondly, away from talk of assaults and actual hate crime, I specifically stated that I was talking about “low-level homophobia”. The sort of thing that many straight people won’t even notice, let alone do anything about. Such as words like poof, fag, queer, gay etc all being used as casual, catch-all insults and go completely unchallenged. As well as the regular jokes about gays and gay sex (some straight men seem absolutely obsessed with what we do to each other for some reason). You’ll notice I’m trying to personalise this whenever possible. Not that long since a teammate of mine, before I came out, was defending his use of homophobic language to me because he ‘knew’ that I wasn’t gay, so it didn’t matter. You go through that - someone justifying their intolerance straight to your face without even realising it. And leaving you feeling completely powerless to respond honestly. You go though that, and then tell me it’s not a problem anymore. You spend years hearing the same jokes, comments and attitudes repeated every week, knowing that they’re about you, and can’t tell anyone. Hearing the same implied message over and over again, that someone like you doesn’t fit in here. Again, most of the people who do this won’t even realise the potential impact they can have. It’s just banter, or no one here is gay anyway, so it doesn’t matter. Well, it matters to me. And although I would never claim to speak for all Queer people, I know several others who it felt the same way to the point they stopped playing. Which brings me back to my original point: having more LGBT people involved at the top of the game feels significant to someone like me. Seeing Keegan Hirst talk about being gay was huge in my coming to terms with my sexuality a few years ago. Seeing someone, from West Yorkshire, similar accent to me, a middle unit player, like me, who looks and acts nothing like the stereotype, like me, talking about being gay, and a professional rugby player helped me to realise that it was OK, I was “allowed” to be gay. Because, whilst gay people are far more represented in the media than they used to be, seeing one who was anything like me, was very rare, and when they were it was often as a joke or in a “you didn’t expect that did you?” kind of way. Which still just reinforces stereotypes, just in a different way. i know this has been a lot longer than I intended, so for anyone who has read all they way through, thanks. And all I ask is that anyone who’s immediate reaction to this story is to downplay it or question why it matters, just examine your own attitudes. Just question why you think that. You may know gay people, but have you ever talked to them about this sort of thing, about any micro-aggressions they face? Or do you just assume they don’t get them because they don’t mention them to you? Because evidence says they happen, people just don’t tend to talk about them often. We’re more likely to talk about them amongst ourselves than to our straight friends. i think that will do. And....post. I read until the end and it was a very interesting insight into something that, I think, is probably impossible to understand unless you have those lived experiences. I consider myself to be quite inclusive, but this thread and especially your post makes me question whether I am. I wonder whether I have internalised prejudices that come out that I am not even aware of. Onto James Child, from what I have read today it paints a quite ugly picture of our sport's historical failings in dealing with homophobic abuse. Whilst it is nobody's business whether he 'comes out' publicly or not, it is pleasing if he encourages others to feel more welcome in our sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Let me assure you that I have absolutely no inclination that you have an issue with gay people. Far from it. But I am of the opinion that relying on saying we have come a long way excuses us in taking action today. I am reminded of when a group of BAME players recorded emotional videos detailing their experiences in the game. We all wrung our hands at the time but has anything changed in the year since? I'd say what Johnoco was intimating is that things are better than they were , and are getting better all the time , it is impossible to do it overnight , that is if we are ever to eradicate it , which personally I doubt , as I put , there are just too many nasty people out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clogdance Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 Good Ref, and seems like a top bloke. That'll do for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 5 hours ago, Dunbar said: I had a long conversation on here a year or two back about Hardaker. My view was that he had burned his chances while another poster said we (as a sport) had a duty of care to support him. If a player has an addiction or other issues then yes, let's support them and provide rehabilitation. But knowing now that Hardaker used homophobic language to abuse one of the very few people in our sport who was known to be gay then the sport only had one duty. To dismiss him. I wouldn't tolerate homophobic language towards anyone in my workplace (let alone a gay colleague) and it would be instant dismissal for gross misconduct. The fact Hardaker is still playing professionally is a disgrace in my opinion. We cannot tolerate such things if we want to be recognised as an open, welcoming and family focused sport. I think we can support players whilst also giving them more than a 5 match ban. In a similar way we may ban someone for years for drugs but then support their rehab and integration back into the game. People do bad things, the issue is that the RFL deemed a 5 match ban sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 18 hours ago, LeeF said: Having refereed at the junior & amateur level there were definitely some clubs that you preferred not to go to for those exact reasons and when I started refereeing I was in my mid 20s not 11 years old like James and others I called it a day refereeing juniors after being assaulted by a parent from a very well known and respected club. The club weren’t interested in dealing with it and neither were the league. Luckily the police had a less laissez faire attitude and the guy was convicted of assault. "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Just now, Phil said: I called it a day refereeing juniors after being assaulted by a parent from a very well known and respected club. The club weren’t interested in dealing with it and neither were the league. Luckily the police had a less laissez faire attitude and the guy was convicted of assault. If anything like that happens it should be a sine die ban from the game and the RFL should back the referee if the referee wishes to make it a criminal matter. Its the only way to give protection to officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 9 minutes ago, Phil said: I called it a day refereeing juniors after being assaulted by a parent from a very well known and respected club. The club weren’t interested in dealing with it and neither were the league. Luckily the police had a less laissez faire attitude and the guy was convicted of assault. It's a damning indictment that neither club nor league supported the referee in an incident where someone ends with an actual conviction. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Prophet Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Others in the MO Department in days gone by have been seriously reprimanded by Red Hall for their vocal opinion on his sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RigbyLuger Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 We saw players throughout last season criticise decisions by referees on social media, were any ever punished? What would the reaction be from a player were a ref to have a go at them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakefield Ram Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 14 hours ago, Would-Be Halfback said: I’ll try to keep this brief and then leave it at that I think, because frankly I don’t really enjoy being told my life experiences don’t count because things were worse in the 80s, or (bizarrely) that people with severe learning disabilities have it harder(?!). Firstly, whilst I never actually talked about feeling physically threatened, some have still tried to claim like it never happens anyway. And without wanting to drag this away from RL and into the murky realms of a politics thread, I feel I need to point out that studies even within the last year have shown that around half of all gay people in the UK fear holding hands in public because they worry about the reaction they’ll get, and LGBT+ related hate crime has risen for 2 years running. Tell the 15,000 victims of homophobic hate crime last year alone that it doesn’t matter because it rarely happens anyway, and it’s well within acceptable limits actually. You don’t have to worry that if you kiss your girlfriend or wife in public that you might just happen to do so in front of the 1 in 1000 who will decide to kick your head for it. I do. And so do many, many others. Secondly, away from talk of assaults and actual hate crime, I specifically stated that I was talking about “low-level homophobia”. The sort of thing that many straight people won’t even notice, let alone do anything about. Such as words like poof, fag, queer, gay etc all being used as casual, catch-all insults and go completely unchallenged. As well as the regular jokes about gays and gay sex (some straight men seem absolutely obsessed with what we do to each other for some reason). You’ll notice I’m trying to personalise this whenever possible. Not that long since a teammate of mine, before I came out, was defending his use of homophobic language to me because he ‘knew’ that I wasn’t gay, so it didn’t matter. You go through that - someone justifying their intolerance straight to your face without even realising it. And leaving you feeling completely powerless to respond honestly. You go though that, and then tell me it’s not a problem anymore. You spend years hearing the same jokes, comments and attitudes repeated every week, knowing that they’re about you, and can’t tell anyone. Hearing the same implied message over and over again, that someone like you doesn’t fit in here. Again, most of the people who do this won’t even realise the potential impact they can have. It’s just banter, or no one here is gay anyway, so it doesn’t matter. Well, it matters to me. And although I would never claim to speak for all Queer people, I know several others who it felt the same way to the point they stopped playing. Which brings me back to my original point: having more LGBT people involved at the top of the game feels significant to someone like me. Seeing Keegan Hirst talk about being gay was huge in my coming to terms with my sexuality a few years ago. Seeing someone, from West Yorkshire, similar accent to me, a middle unit player, like me, who looks and acts nothing like the stereotype, like me, talking about being gay, and a professional rugby player helped me to realise that it was OK, I was “allowed” to be gay. Because, whilst gay people are far more represented in the media than they used to be, seeing one who was anything like me, was very rare, and when they were it was often as a joke or in a “you didn’t expect that did you?” kind of way. Which still just reinforces stereotypes, just in a different way. i know this has been a lot longer than I intended, so for anyone who has read all they way through, thanks. And all I ask is that anyone who’s immediate reaction to this story is to downplay it or question why it matters, just examine your own attitudes. Just question why you think that. You may know gay people, but have you ever talked to them about this sort of thing, about any micro-aggressions they face? Or do you just assume they don’t get them because they don’t mention them to you? Because evidence says they happen, people just don’t tend to talk about them often. We’re more likely to talk about them amongst ourselves than to our straight friends. i think that will do. And....post. Thanks, a really thought-provoking post. Whilst attitudes for many have changed significantly in my lifetime (I'm in my 50s) there's still a lot of people around with intolerant attitudes. One good thing is my children's generation (20s) have been brought up in a much more tolerant society, so hopefully attitudes are changing for the better. Till we get to the point that no-one cares about a players or refs sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilderspoolmemories Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 I'm not bothered about him being gay. I am bothered about him being an awful referee who seems to penalise us heavily while letting the opposition go unpunished for offences. I resign myself to the fact that Warrington will probably lose when I see he's been appointed to "referee" our match. I'm usually correct!! 2009 Warrington 25 Hudderfield 16 2010 Warrington 30 Leeds 6 2011 League Leaders Shield Winners 2012 Warrington 35 Leeds 18 Challenge cups and league leaders shields everywhere! We need more silver polish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakefield Ram Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 minute ago, Wilderspoolmemories said: I'm not bothered about him being gay. I am bothered about him being an awful referee who seems to penalise us heavily while letting the opposition go unpunished for offences. I resign myself to the fact that Warrington will probably lose when I see he's been appointed to "referee" our match. I'm usually correct!! Out of interest have you checked the penalty count from say 10 Warrington games reffed by Childs and 10 Warrington games reffed by other refs? Then you could be certain he's biased. Or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The storm Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 3 hours ago, Phil said: I called it a day refereeing juniors after being assaulted by a parent from a very well known and respected club. The club weren’t interested in dealing with it and neither were the league. Luckily the police had a less laissez faire attitude and the guy was convicted of assault. I had a go at being a junior ref some years ago. The remarks and insults from parents can clearly be heard Did about 7 or 8 games, but the comments, even after a game were horrific I assumed it had changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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