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Wales RL developments


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5 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Seriously?

Masters is the way to grow a sport? 

I know of governing bodies who actively discourage veterans teams in their sport, as it simply hinders growth. It blocks up court/pitch time, and uses players who would otherwise be kids coaches/referees/judges etc.

Do you have any evidence of how this kind of Masters model can grow a sport? (Just any sport, anywhere I mean).

Yes, it’s what they’re doing in Ontario. As I said, there plan is to get adults with a few quid involved in the sport and grow it from there. 
 

Have you got any examples of where just kids playing a sport has made it boom?

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49 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Yes, it’s what they’re doing in Ontario. As I said, there plan is to get adults with a few quid involved in the sport and grow it from there. 
 

Have you got any examples of where just kids playing a sport has made it boom?

I would have thought Soccer in the USA has been propelled forward by both girls and boys playing the sport as a significant example.

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2 hours ago, Clogiron said:

Nothing surprising in the replies from the dreamer's but the reality is after 125 years of private individuals/ groups trying to create teams there is still nothing substantial to show in Wales. The RL has tried to create interest with internationals when there was more and stronger converts to  choose from, but missed the boat as it has done so many times over the years. The game has a pitiful record in trying to expand or even support some of the clubs in it's so called heartland's. We may think it's the greatest game but many millions fail to see the attraction. If you think a World Cup is going to change that well ponder on the follow up that happened after the last one here in 2013.

The only really positive note that RL has had for years was Toronto which seemed too good to be true and was! But those at the helm of the game couldn't see the opportunities it may offer before the s hit hit the fan big time and if they believe that vindicated there stance nothing more needs to be said.

What is your definition of substantial? I remember clearly around the 2000 Rugby League World Cup there was next to no domestic activity in Wales.

The only club was the Cardiff Demons and there wasn't even much from a University side.

Today there are two Semi Professional clubs, around nine clubs around the Province playing in regular competitions with teams from juniors up to seniors, University, College and School teams and leagues plus a number of Masters and Wheelchair teams popping up.

This is all in the last 20 years and today we are at a point where there is enough people playing the game, enough clubs established and enough people watching the game, you can confidently say the sport is embedded enough it won't just disappear overnight as it is now part of multiple communities and there are thousands (not many thousands, but still thousands) playing the sport.

That to me is substantial enough to show there is a future for the sport in the region. With the WRL slowly increasing its profile, it's revenue streams, it's asset base and it's participation numbers, I only see it growing as well.

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2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Yes, it’s what they’re doing in Ontario. As I said, there plan is to get adults with a few quid involved in the sport and grow it from there.

It is what they are about to try in Ontario (if I am not mistaken), so it is nothing more than an experiment at this stage, and by no means a proven success.

I wrote in that other thread why I thought it was a bad idea, no need to repeat myself.

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I'm sure Masters will work quite well for Ontario simply because all of the clubs playing in the ORL are currently one team Open Age clubs.

If nothing else, adding a Masters side adds some depth to the club, especially from a volunteer perspective and almost serves a similar purpose to what say 4th grade Rugby Union does.

When I've seen Masters teams added to clubs like this, generally speaking it has worked well because it gives an avenue for older players to stay involved without the same level of physical commitment (games are usually once a month, training is usually the occasional opposed session with the open age teams or drinking with them at the pub) and they also often are able to bring investment easier (they have their own businesses, they are higher up in companies or they are just better off at 35 than they were at 20).

For clubs with juniors, I feel there are so many variables. As others have said, it can take away resources or playing opportunities for kids and it can even cripple a club some week if the Masters are playing at a different venue.

Sure it can bring benefits as well, but I feel like only the people involved in that club can make that call, rather than having as part of some regional strategy, especially for the WRL.

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12 hours ago, Clogiron said:

RL has spent 125 years trying to put down roots in Wales without success, will it ever realise it's not going to happen. It's taken many fine player's from there when it could flash the cash and offer them more than they were getting in union but those days are long gone so that involvement has disappeared and the chance's of creating a strong club side have always been and will continue to be impossible, as that 125 years should tell them the people just aren't interested enough.

completely and utterly disagree. The welsh love sport and there is no reason RL cant flourish in Wales. It already has come along way in the last ten years and will continue to grow through efforts like this

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5 hours ago, Eddie said:

Yes, it’s what they’re doing in Ontario. As I said, there plan is to get adults with a few quid involved in the sport and grow it from there. 
 

Have you got any examples of where just kids playing a sport has made it boom?

OK - and this is working in Ontario? I would be astonished if it was.

Is Rugby League big there? I hadn't even realised they had clubs outside of Toronto Wolfpack tbh.

Where do they plan to get their players from? (I mean.... Most 'Masters' type teams are made up of people who have actually played the sport already!)

The closest example to you I could think of would be soccer in Canada. It has grown from being a predominantly immigrant sport to a relatively mainstream one (male and female) through junior participation, as well as programs at High School, CEGEP etc.  There are loads of other examples though.

 

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3 hours ago, Pie tries said:

completely and utterly disagree. The welsh love sport and there is no reason RL cant flourish in Wales. It already has come along way in the last ten years and will continue to grow through efforts like this

10 years ago, Wales had a fully professional team in Super League.

I'm glad to hear the sport has come such a long way since then. 

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7 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

OK - and this is working in Ontario? I would be astonished if it was.

Is Rugby League big there? I hadn't even realised they had clubs outside of Toronto Wolfpack tbh.

Where do they plan to get their players from? (I mean.... Most 'Masters' type teams are made up of people who have actually played the sport already!)

The closest example to you I could think of would be soccer in Canada. It has grown from being a predominantly immigrant sport to a relatively mainstream one (male and female) through junior participation, as well as programs at High School, CEGEP etc.  There are loads of other examples though.

 

They’re getting CFL and Union players who no longer want to play full contact. It’s in its infancy I believe, however if they can set clubs up and then get kids involved it sounds like a plan to me. 

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12 hours ago, welshmagpie said:

That’s the spirit Dean. I’d argue it’s already somewhat successful and will continue to get even more successful.

Enjoy your evening 

Sorry mate don’t want to p on your chips. RL in my opinion should be a global sport bigger than football. Fact is  it isn’t because others don’t like it wales included. It’s time to stop all this experimenting and make the game stronger in the heartlands where people want it

sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

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On 25/02/2021 at 21:26, The Rocket said:

What happens though if a club can`t run a women`s team, say through just lack of interest by the local women that is, where does that leave them. All of the above are worthy goals but is it wise to make them deal breakers. Over here League Tag is growing exponentially for the women with teams run by the clubs, could that be an alternative if womens` numbers were insufficient for the tackle version of the game.

He adds: “Our new strategy is to build from the bottom up by creating sustainable community rugby league clubs and not just teams. Each new club has to run, as a minimum, a men’s and women’s side at open age and a junior team, with an intention to also establish wheelchair and physical disability (PDRL) sides in the future, all with support from us as an NGB with our community coaches......

 

The above is lifted straight from the article written by Honor James and since she uses (" ") inverted commas, I presume she's quoting Gareth Kear's words verbatim.

I don't know if Honor James knows more than she's telling but I find this line disturbing and think it demands some urgent clarification.

I, certainly, would like more information from her, or Mr Kear.

When he says ''each new club has to run, as a minimum........'' he sounds very authoritarian. The wording is unequivocally proscriptive and that really rankles with me.

When he says ''.....has to run....'' I'm inclined to ask Mr Kear, or what?

What if I want to start a club and am looking for opposition in Wales but only have (at the outset) enough blokes to form an open age mens team?

Is he saying, they won't welcome us into the organisation, won't allow us into the league, or provide opposition, even on a friendly basis? God, I hope not.

These comments need some clarification and quickly. If this is what he's suggesting, I have news for Mr Kear, new clubs don't burst into existence, fully fledged, all guns blazing, with teams covering every age group, the gender spectrum, or the entire range of physical disabilities.

No, they usually start with a load of lads (or girls) who fancy playing on a regular basis, who may or may not be willing and able to build the rest of it as they go along.

They do however, have the capacity amongst them, to stake a claim in virgin territory and fly the flag for all to see, so they should be made welcome, looked upon sympathetically and given every encouragement to participate and grow, rather than excluded at the outset by some authoritarian Bull Shine. 

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1 minute ago, langpark said:

Good point, that did cross my mind too. 

"Has to" can also be a way of saying "should" though, right? I assume that is what he meant. 

I hope so mate, they've been going great guns lately. 

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5 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

He adds: “Our new strategy is to build from the bottom up by creating sustainable community rugby league clubs and not just teams. Each new club has to run, as a minimum, a men’s and women’s side at open age and a junior team, with an intention to also establish wheelchair and physical disability (PDRL) sides in the future, all with support from us as an NGB with our community coaches......

 

The above is lifted straight from the article written by Honor James and since she uses (" ") inverted commas, I presume she's quoting Gareth Kear's words verbatim.

I don't know if Honor James knows more than she's telling but I find this line disturbing and think it demands some urgent clarification.

I, certainly, would like more information from her, or Mr Kear.

When he says ''each new club has to run, as a minimum........'' he sounds very authoritarian. The wording is unequivocally proscriptive and that really rankles with me.

When he says ''.....has to run....'' I'm inclined to ask Mr Kear, or what?

What if I want to start a club and am looking for opposition in Wales but only have (at the outset) enough blokes to form an open age mens team?

Is he saying, they won't welcome us into the organisation, won't allow us into the league, or provide opposition, even on a friendly basis? God, I hope not.

These comments need some clarification and quickly. If this is what he's suggesting, I have news for Mr Kear, new clubs don't burst into existence, fully fledged, all guns blazing, with teams covering every age group, the gender spectrum, or the entire range of physical disabilities.

No, they usually start with a load of lads (or girls) who fancy playing on a regular basis, who may or may not be willing and able to build the rest of it as they go along.

They do however, have the capacity amongst them, to stake a claim in virgin territory, fly the flag for all to see, so they should be made welcome, looked upon sympathetically and given every encouragement to participate and grow, rather than excluded at the outset by some authoritarian Bull Shine. 

Your analysis is exactly what prompted my response but on closer examination of the paragraph in question, that you have highlighted, I am tempted to think that perhaps the first sentence and second sentence should not be taken as one but the achievement of the second fulfilling the first goal - `sustainable community RL clubs not teams`.. an admirable goal.

Their definition of a sustainable club, their ultimate goal, is to have what is listed in the second sentence.

Unfortunately the wording is ambiguous and sounds like you have to have those things straight up before you can even be recognised as a club. Although on reading it again just now, I`m not so sure. Definitely could have been worded better and should be cleared up if this is effectively their `mission statement` to any aspiring clubs who may just think `too hard.`

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Standards are good, and arguably that has been one of the things missing. We do need clubs to develop rather than just teams revolving around RU players playing out of season. It is only right to try and develop that and build real roots, especially if clubs can get their own grounds. However its quite right to be concerned that they aren't enforced to the detriment of the game.

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4 hours ago, Eddie said:

Nothing to do with the MLS then? 

I think that the progress the MLS has made has been on the back of the juniors & Womens game and let's not forget there's a massive Latino population who regard Soccer as their first/only sport.

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1 minute ago, Clogiron said:

I think that the progress the MLS has made has been on the back of the juniors & Womens game and let's not forget there's a massive Latino population who regard Soccer as their first/only sport.

A pretty decent percentage of American soccer fans don't follow MLS. Plus you see growth in soccer participation in areas with no MLS side.

Basically, the MLS model is to tap into and develop existing football interest.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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20 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

10 years ago, Wales had a fully professional team in Super League.

I'm glad to hear the sport has come such a long way since then. 

....but no roots...

All the good news from Wales is from welshmen and women building something sustainable. 

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3 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

The Welsh Super League club produced plenty of players in its short time in existence. Gill Dudson, Ben Flower, Elliott Kear, Lloyd White and several more who played below Super League. 

Indeed. They showed the potential for a Welsh SL team to attract players and fans as the focal point at the top of the pyramid. 

As you say in just a few short years a number of players came through and became established SL players, some of whom are still around. Just imagine where the Welsh team would be if they had stuck around as a SL team for another decade producing SL players.

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45 minutes ago, Damien said:

Indeed. They showed the potential for a Welsh SL team to attract players and fans as the focal point at the top of the pyramid. 

As you say in just a few short years a number of players came through and became established SL players, some of whom are still around. Just imagine where the Welsh team would be if they had stuck around as a SL team for another decade producing SL players.

But they never did they. Once the money dried up the appetite waned. 

sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

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