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Broadcaster and journalist Carolyn Hitt investigates why so many men gave up their dreams of playing rugby union for Wales, to seek fame and fortune among the mills of Lancashire and Yorkshire by committing an act that was considered tantamount to treason – switching codes to play rugby league. Her journey explores the impact of class, race and economic change on the game at the heart of Welsh identity.

bbc 1 11.50 sunday night.

Through the fish-eyed lens of tear stained eyes
I can barely define the shape of this moment in time(roger waters)

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A fine documentary, and good to see it broadcast again.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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8 hours ago, my missus said:

Broadcaster and journalist Carolyn Hitt investigates why so many men gave up their dreams of playing rugby union for Wales, to seek fame and fortune among the mills of Lancashire and Yorkshire by committing an act that was considered tantamount to treason – switching codes to play rugby league. Her journey explores the impact of class, race and economic change on the game at the heart of Welsh identity.

bbc 1 11.50 sunday night.

They were working class and skint 

 

Next subject 

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3 hours ago, Johnoco said:

It is an excellent documentary. The lady presenting it is a Welsh RU fan and has a bit of a revelation herself as to what the players went through.

Yes the presenter is excellent and it is interesting the journey she goes on personally from a starting position of RL is evil.

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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

One thing the programme doesn`t bring out is that most RL fans would have far rather seen League grow in Wales than have all these players move north.

Do you think Widnes fans would rather have seen a club set up in Ebbw Vale than seen Jonathan Davies play for them? 

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1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

If Davies could have stayed in Wales and played RL there, why would he have gone to Widnes?

Maybe, as an ambitious player, he'd have seen the Widnes side of the time and fancied the chance of a trophy or two.

Especially as there wouldn't have been the social stigma he suffered back in Wales if he'd been transferring from one RL club to another instead of crossing codes.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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On 28/02/2021 at 01:34, my missus said:

Broadcaster and journalist Carolyn Hitt investigates why so many men gave up their dreams of playing rugby union for Wales, to seek fame and fortune among the mills of Lancashire and Yorkshire by committing an act that was considered tantamount to treason – switching codes to play rugby league. Her journey explores the impact of class, race and economic change on the game at the heart of Welsh identity.

bbc 1 11.50 sunday night.

It was a good programme, and I already had previously recorded it to repeat again at leisure.    The point to take away was the large, huge number of Welsh players that 'went north'.  All of which strengthened the depth of our game.  Once RU went professional... it stopped dead.   

Not only did relatively inexpensive, ready made, players stop moving to the then part time (but paid) rugby league, our own game could not afford the sort of payment to full time players that RU could... except for our top clubs.

Thus we have moved from one dichotomy of part time paid v amateur era to a new one, of on the one side fully paid v on the other side barely part time paid.  We have created a new divide, were we seem apparently to have a resentfullness  about that part of the game which is successful.

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55 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

It was a good programme, and I already had previously recorded it to repeat again at leisure.    The point to take away was the large, huge number of Welsh players that 'went north'.  All of which strengthened the depth of our game.  Once RU went professional... it stopped dead.   

Not only did relatively inexpensive, ready made, players stop moving to the then part time (but paid) rugby league, our own game could not afford the sort of payment to full time players that RU could... except for our top clubs.

Thus we have moved from one dichotomy of part time paid v amateur era to a new one, of on the one side fully paid v on the other side barely part time paid.  We have created a new divide, were we seem apparently to have a resentfullness  about that part of the game which is successful.

Not even the top SL clubs can offer the sort of money players can get in the Gallagher Premiership and Pro14, they can't afford to.  Even after the Premiership salary cap was cut by almost 30% it's still 5 million € and the Pro14 pays roughly the same as the Premiership.

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4 hours ago, Eddie said:

Do you think Widnes fans would rather have seen a club set up in Ebbw Vale than seen Jonathan Davies play for them? 

The attitude of one club`s fans to the signing of one player at one time is a distraction.

If RL in Wales had developed a set-up similar to Lancashire and Yorkshire, players would have moved between all the clubs in the normal ways. Lancastrians and Yorkshiremen would have been as likely to sign for Welsh clubs as vice versa.

The question is whether we would have preferred all the benefits of a strong RL presence in Wales to what actually happened. An RL fan who would rather the game remained smaller if it meant their club could continue signing RU players isn`t much of an RL fan.

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4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

If Davies could have stayed in Wales and played RL there, why would he have gone to Widnes?

Same reason any sports player leaves their own area to play elsewhere - better money and chance of trophies generally, or just wanting to try life elsewhere (though admittedly I doubt anyone would chose Widnes for the latter reason). 

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David Watkins, Captain of Wales & British Lions tours RU, signed for Salford RL and was banned, as usual.

After he retired from playing (for Swinton BTW), he got a job commentating for the BBC for Union games, his first job was at Cardiff Arms Park. The Security turned him away, and told the BBC none of the RFU's will let him in.

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3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The attitude of one club`s fans to the signing of one player at one time is a distraction.

If RL in Wales had developed a set-up similar to Lancashire and Yorkshire, players would have moved between all the clubs in the normal ways. Lancastrians and Yorkshiremen would have been as likely to sign for Welsh clubs as vice versa.

The question is whether we would have preferred all the benefits of a strong RL presence in Wales to what actually happened. An RL fan who would rather the game remained smaller if it meant their club could continue signing RU players isn`t much of an RL fan.

The bolded bit is one of the defining characteristics of this sport and almost any sport - most people are fans of clubs first.

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3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Not even the top SL clubs can offer the sort of money players can get in the Gallagher Premiership and Pro14, they can't afford to.  Even after the Premiership salary cap was cut by almost 30% it's still 5 million € and the Pro14 pays roughly the same as the Premiership.

As purely a point of information... as I understand the premiership rugby cap it is 5 million pounds Sterling.  Irrespective of that, this is really nothing to do with the point I was making.  

If I may hopefully make it clear -- once RU went professional then significant sponsorship flooded into that game an the stream of RU converts dried up.  To cut a long story short, this massively changed the nature of our own RL game.  This I suggest, to those who care to listen, has had huge consequences which people do not want to recognise.

RU went professional in 1995 (?) at about the time SL went fully professional. Previously and overwhelmingly our own game was part time and had little sponsorship. Back then there was very much a level playing field.  Professionalism has completely changed our landscape (including no RU converts) and we need to acknowledge that.  For comparison, for what it is worth, many RU clubs were hit by the same tidelwave, Orrell, Mosley, Gosforth, Coventry.

As far as tides were concerned, King Canute had the right and sensible idea.  And we need to think on that.

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1 hour ago, Bleep1673 said:

David Watkins, Captain of Wales & British Lions tours RU, signed for Salford RL and was banned, as usual.

After he retired from playing (for Swinton BTW), he got a job commentating for the BBC for Union games, his first job was at Cardiff Arms Park. The Security turned him away, and told the BBC none of the RFU's will let him in.

And he would also point out at he was regularly hit off the ball (4 broken noses in 1 season) by more poorly paid (and inferior) opponents.

I would say that what I take away from that is that many people in RL really don't want to take on board the consequences of professionalism.

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