Lebanon in the WC

[damp squib]

5 hours ago, langpark said:

Get a grip guys, one guy on the bench won't make a difference at all. And I doubt you guys are avid watchers of the Lebanese league. I am not denying that their league is of a low standard, but how do you know they don't have a super talented individual or two playing in that league? You don't.  

My wife is Lebanese and her cousin played Rugby League there so I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. He was a decent player but the thought of him taking a hit from Jason Taumalolo is frightening.

I'm also Irish and take the opposite view with the Irish team - I'm not ideological about heritage players and think they can be positive or negative depending on the country and context.

The Irish domestic RL players are mostly fairly high level (domestically) Union players who have played a highly physical contact sport all their lives. A team made up mostly of these players with a few heritage players in key positions would be well beaten by top tier teams but would at least be physically capable of staying on the pitch for 80 minutes. An Ireland made up of these players would be reasonably competitive (but usually lose) against France and Wales and would sometimes qualify for the world cup - an accurate representation of our strength.

The Lebanese domestic RL players are mostly guys who picked up the game in university having played soccer or basketball before. Maybe some of them would be physically capable of playing a RL match against the world's best players but it's a huge risk to take. A Lebanon made up of these players would not have beaten South Africa to qualify for the WC. Unlike Ireland, without heritage players Lebanon would not exist as a competitive international RL team.

None of this changes the fact that, measured as the number of players actively involved in RL, Lebanon has a much stronger domestic scene than Ireland. But those players do not have a similar readiness to complete against professionals because having a Rugby Union background distorts the ability of the average Irish RL player.

Lebanon need heritage players to exist as an international Rugby League team. Ireland and Scotland do not.

[Big Picture]

42 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s results that gets the media’s attention and writes headlines not birth certificates. These are just from a quick google search. Can you show the media attention given to emerging Nations losing but playing several players born within that Nation?

https://fijisun.com.fj/2017/10/31/editorial-fiji-and-tonga-a-threat-to-top-nations/
 

https://www.vilatimes.com/2017/11/20/fiji-beats-new-zealand-in-rugby-league-world-cup-quarter-finals/

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/rugby/14909679.review-of-scotland-rugby-league-board-aims-to-maximise-four-nations-gains/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/archive.pakistantoday.com.pk/2017/11/25/rugby-league-world-cup-england-beat-tonga-20-18-to-set-up-final-with-australia/amp/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/sports/2017/11/11/tonga-stuns-new-zealand-at-rugby-league-world-cup.html

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.malaymail.com/amp/news/sports/2017/11/25/england-hold-off-rampaging-tonga-to-reach-world-cup-final/1518351

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/sport/archives/2017/11/26/2003682935

 

@langparkwas asking about coverage in Italy or Lebanon.  I notice that none of those are from either of those countries.

[damp squib]

8 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

@langparkwas asking about coverage in Italy or Lebanon.  I notice that none of those are from either of those countries.

It doesn't matter if the squad is full of heritage players or domestic players - when the sport is tiny it won't get headlines.

What matters is does the presence of heritage players help or hinder the development of Rugby League in those countries and that varies by country.

From the countries I know something about, I think it helps Lebanon and hinders Ireland.

[Eddie]

Given that players only represent the country of their grandparent because they feel like they are from that country and do it through pride, I expect James Tedesco will be turning down the opportunity to play for Australia and instead join up with the Italian squad this November? 

[damp squib]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Given that players only represent the country of their grandparent because they feel like they are from that country and do it through pride, I expect James Tedesco will be turning down the opportunity to play for Australia and instead join up with the Italian squad this November? 

Excellent gotcha, well done.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Given that players only represent the country of their grandparent because they feel like they are from that country and do it through pride, I expect James Tedesco will be turning down the opportunity to play for Australia and instead join up with the Italian squad this November? 

If he had to play in at least 1 set of Qualifiers or European championship games at the end of one of the seasons he might have tbh

[Eddie]

28 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

If he had to play in at least 1 set of Qualifiers or European championship games at the end of one of the seasons he might have tbh

I’ve got Polish grandparents, have been there plenty of times and can speak a bit of the language. I’m interested in Polish history and culture, and keep up to date with what’s going on in the Ekstraklasa, but I wouldn’t for one minute say I’m Polish or I feel Polish as I’m quite obviously English.
 

Would I play for Poland if it gave me the chance to play in a World Cup - yes definitely, but would I rather play for England, yes 100%. I imagine a lot of the heritage players in the WC won’t be able to say any of the above expect having grandparents from the country in question, I can’t see that having a squad full of them is a legitimate national side. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

@langparkwas asking about coverage in Italy or Lebanon.  I notice that none of those are from either of those countries.

I don’t speak read or write in Italian or Arabic so was unable to google in those languages 

[Eddie]

14 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I don’t speak read or write in Italian or Arabic so was unable to google in those languages 

So basically you have no idea what coverage the last WC got in either country’s media? 

[Big Picture]

16 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I don’t speak read or write in Italian or Arabic so was unable to google in those languages 

You could always have used Google translate to render your search text into them.  I did that and found one report in Italian from Turin's La Stampa.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

14 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You could always have used Google translate to render your search text into them.  I did that and found one report in Italian from Turin's La Stampa.

So it was in the media, brilliant @langparkwas wrong, International teams with heritage players do generate news headlines in their home countries. 

[graveyard johnny]

are there many lebanese in the womens game?  just asking.

[Big Picture]

6 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

So it was in the media, brilliant @langparkwas wrong, International teams with heritage players do generate news headlines in their home countries. 

Do those headlines then stimulate/increase interest in the game in those countries though?  That's what really matters.

[arcticchris]

I think it is positive that Lebanon want to provide that carrot for their domestic players which will drive standards in the local game as they push to get selection.

Ireland, Scotland and Wales have frequently fielded several championship 1 players (3rd tier) so I am not convinced that the best of the domestic Lebanese players would be significantly worse than the championship 1 players who have featured for the aforementioned nations.

[damp squib]

2 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

are there many lebanese in the womens game?  just asking.

The American University of Beirut and The Lebanese American University have women’s teams that I know of but I’m sure there are more in other universities. There are also a couple of clubs but I’m not as familiar with them.

The Junipers represent Lebanon in the women’s international game.

That puts Lebanon miles ahead of Ireland, which has no women’s game, and Scotland which I think is just starting to develop one.

[damp squib]

2 hours ago, arcticchris said:

I think it is positive that Lebanon want to provide that carrot for their domestic players which will drive standards in the local game as they push to get selection.

Ireland, Scotland and Wales have frequently fielded several championship 1 players (3rd tier) so I am not convinced that the best of the domestic Lebanese players would be significantly worse than the championship 1 players who have featured for the aforementioned nations.

I’m afraid this just isn’t true.

Serbia are much stronger than Lebanon domestically but Red Star Belgrade were soundly beaten by Millom (and amateur side) in the Challenge Cup.

Again, the Irish players (and presumably the Welsh and Scottish) who made it in the Championship 1 were all experienced Rugby players who played Union at a relatively high level in Ireland. You can’t compare that with players who mostly took up rugby for the first time in their early 20s.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, arcticchris said:

I think it is positive that Lebanon want to provide that carrot for their domestic players which will drive standards in the local game as they push to get selection.

Ireland, Scotland and Wales have frequently fielded several championship 1 players (3rd tier) so I am not convinced that the best of the domestic Lebanese players would be significantly worse than the championship 1 players who have featured for the aforementioned nations.

I doubt if the Lebanese domestic league is anywhere near the standard of L1 tbh. 

[Tommygilf]

14 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Do those headlines then stimulate/increase interest in the game in those countries though?  That's what really matters.

Did Toronto generate a team of Canadians in 3 and a bit years?

Its a silly short termist position to prove a silly short termist point.

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, Eddie said:

I doubt if the Lebanese domestic league is anywhere near the standard of L1 tbh. 

Considering one poster has conceeded that the Serbian League is in his words "much stronger" than the Lebanese domestic league, and the best team in Serbia were soundly beaten 38 - 10 by Millom being one if our amatuer teams I think you can exclude the "I doubt" in your statement above.

[JonM]

15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Do those headlines then stimulate/increase interest in the game in those countries though?  That's what really matters.

I guess this is a rhetorical question, as the answer is obviously yes. As an example, the Lebanese Sports Minister met with LRL officials around the time of the world cup draw last year to offer government assistance. Not sure how many other RL playing countries would get that.

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Did Toronto generate a team of Canadians in 3 and a bit years?

Its a silly short termist position to prove a silly short termist point.

No they didn't generate a team of Canadians but they certainly did create a lot of interest in the sport as their crowds proved.  A lot more interest than the Canadian national team has created so far too.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

No they didn't generate a team of Canadians but they certainly did create a lot of interest in the sport as their crowds proved.  A lot more interest than the Canadian national team has created so far too.

Odd comment and demonstrably untrue relating to crowds, think its time to stop digging mate.

[Big Picture]

14 hours ago, damp squib said:

Again, the Irish players (and presumably the Welsh and Scottish) who made it in the Championship 1 were all experienced Rugby players who played Union at a relatively high level in Ireland. You can’t compare that with players who mostly took up rugby for the first time in their early 20s.

This is an important point which seems to get overlooked at times.  The only successful converts to what we all know is a tough contact sport have come from another contact sport which had given them transferable skills and game sense.  Realistically the only potential converts who'll ever play top level RL will have that sort of background.

[Big Picture]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Odd comment and demonstrably untrue relating to crowds, think its time to stop digging mate.

The Wolfpack packed Lamport Stadium to capacity and beyond for their playoff matches in 2019, just how then is what I said "demonstrably untrue relating to crowds"?

[Tommygilf]

31 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

The Wolfpack packed Lamport Stadium to capacity and beyond for their playoff matches in 2019, just how then is what I said "demonstrably untrue relating to crowds"?

One of the key plusses for the Wolfpack getting accepted was that the Canadian national team had been getting strong 4 figure crowds at Lamport prior to them, demonstrating the market was there.