Elstone Departs

[Kayakman]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Well if you accuse England of being a no risk nation, then you can expect to be pulled up on it. Regarding SL and TWP though, I’m in total agreement. 

OK...OK...lighten up man!...enough with that whip!....I'm looking forward to getting into the Bush and watching the ice chunks/ice sheets float by in the water...very soothing, especially when I visualize Elstone being stuck on one of the ice sheets and frantically calling to me for help.   Unfortunately I can't launch the boat to help since I am busy negotiating a minor sponsorship deal with a pizza company so he will just have to wait.

Ohhh!...he has drifted out of vision now...too bad....

[Hela Wigmen]

15 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Over 100 years ago doesn’t really count because sporting culture hadn’t developed then. But yes there aren’t many examples are there. I’d forgotten about the Welsh RU ones though, not that they’re particularly well supported. 

Yeah, the fact we’ve gone from the early 1900’s to now with so few examples of such at a high level shows a lot. 

I suppose it depends on what success is defined as. Solihull Moors in the National League are knocking on the door of the Football League, some 10-15 years after a merger, for example but they’ve been part-time for some time in that period. There’s more examples in lower/non-league football of mergers (Hayes & Yeading, Dagenham & Redbridge, Ossett United, Maldon & Tiptree and probably plenty more across lower levels of the non-league pyramid) but again, most of those are part-time (Dagenham aside). The football examples are all clubs who at the time of merging were part-time. I think ICT, Dagenham and Rushden & Diamonds (who are no longer) and possibly Solihull Moors are the only teams who have played professionally since merging in the past 25-30 years. 

[Clogiron]

On 06/03/2021 at 21:23, RobertAM said:

If TWP were a basket case then seems they were in good company

https://shura.shu.ac.uk/11664/3/Plumley Staring into the abyss.pdf

The entire basis of that report is false in that it fails to recognise that the European Super League was a by product of the Australian pay per view fight between Murdoch and the ARL who were backed by Packer. Murdoch signed up the British game to close off a source of player's for the ARL, the money it cost was chicken feed in relation to what was being lashed out be both antagonists in Australia, Murdoch got some filler for his summer schedule from it but had little desire in 'saving' the British game as the well worn story trotted out by his apologists has it.

[Eddie]

21 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Yeah, the fact we’ve gone from the early 1900’s to now with so few examples of such at a high level shows a lot. 

I suppose it depends on what success is defined as. Solihull Moors in the National League are knocking on the door of the Football League, some 10-15 years after a merger, for example but they’ve been part-time for some time in that period. There’s more examples in lower/non-league football of mergers (Hayes & Yeading, Dagenham & Redbridge, Ossett United, Maldon & Tiptree and probably plenty more across lower levels of the non-league pyramid) but again, most of those are part-time (Dagenham aside). The football examples are all clubs who at the time of merging were part-time. I think ICT, Dagenham and Rushden & Diamonds (who are no longer) and possibly Solihull Moors are the only teams who have played professionally since merging in the past 25-30 years. 

I didn’t realise Solihull were a merger but most of the others you mention were such small clubs that I doubt it made much of an impact in terms of losing fans. Using common sense there are loads of teams in the UK who should merge (Dundee and Dundee Utd, Bristol City and Rovers etc), but I bet Bristol Rovers fans would rather be playing independently in the Conference than in the Premier League in a merged team. In other countries maybe that’s less of an issue, certainly in Australasia and North America. 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

I wonder why some clubs are called "United" . Suggests to me the union of two or more clubs. Is there another explanation?

I believe a lot of United Football teams were originally formed from churches.

[Eddie]

I know this has gone way off topic, but neither Cambridge or Peterborough United are from mergers either. I do think Hull and HKR should merge to form Hull Kingston Sharks Rovers FC though. 

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I didn’t realise Solihull were a merger but most of the others you mention were such small clubs that I doubt it made much of an impact in terms of losing fans. Using common sense there are loads of teams in the UK who should merge (Dundee and Dundee Utd, Bristol City and Rovers etc), but I bet Bristol Rovers fans would rather be playing independently in the Conference than in the Premier League in a merged team. In other countries maybe that’s less of an issue, certainly in Australasia and North America. 

I think that, the smaller fan bases so less to lose, is probably why it’s been implemented in non-league football below the top couple of levels and is more successful than what I think you’re suggesting, in taking relatively stable and successful professional clubs and attempting to make “super clubs”. 

In terms of Rugby League here, I think it could work in rare cases but certainly not on the level of ‘95 in terms of your Calderdale’s and Cheshire’s and Cumbria’s, but at lower levels. 

[Eddie]

5 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I think that, the smaller fan bases so less to lose, is probably why it’s been implemented in non-league football below the top couple of levels and is more successful than what I think you’re suggesting, in taking relatively stable and successful professional clubs and attempting to make “super clubs”. 

In terms of Rugby League here, I think it could work in rare cases but certainly not on the level of ‘95 in terms of your Calderdale’s and Cheshire’s and Cumbria’s, but at lower levels. 

No I wasn’t suggesting those teams should merge, far from it, just that from an outsider’s point of view with no understanding of sporting culture, it might seem like it would make sense to. 
 

Even near me, Great Yarmouth (which must be the biggest place in the UK to have its best football team at such a low level) has two bitter rivals in the Eastern Counties league who can get four figure crowds for the Boxing Day derby. They’re both in the 9th tier and merging would surely make sense, but it would never happen. 

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Regarding Elstones part in the demise of Toronto, I think it needs to be said that Elstone's attitude and demeanor towards them, from the day he took the job was abject negativity.

Consider for a moment, the effect that that might have had on David Argyles motivation to continue, pouring millions into a project when he's being told daily, that they are not wanted in the competition.

Yes, the pandemic might have decimated his global businesses (who knows for certain) but if he was feeling the pinch and all he gets is Elstone's sour face spouting more criticism, continually turning a cold shoulder, more doom mongering about the appropriateness of their inclusion in the competition, on and on and on, well I say, its not surprising that he pulled the plug in a ''f....k you'' gesture. He's a human being, after all. 

I dont care about Argyles motivation, what i care about is him stealing other peoples money. Because that is what happens when you dont pay bills. And he was doing țhat while in the Championship.

I was charatable to him when he made dubious remarks and set himself aside. I changed my mind.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Rupert Prince said:

I dont care about Argyles motivation, what i care about is him stealing other peoples money. Because that is what happens when you dont pay bills. And he was doing țhat while in the Championship.

I was charatable to him when he made dubious remarks and set himself aside. I changed my mind.

Yup. The most recent unpaid bill came to light through litigation that started in 2018.

Jack all to do with covid, Elstone or anything other than a desire to just not pay people.

[fighting irish]

15 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I dont care about Argyles motivation, what i care about is him stealing other peoples money. Because that is what happens when you dont pay bills. And he was doing țhat while in the Championship.

I was charatable to him when he made dubious remarks and set himself aside. I changed my mind.

Bully for you! 

[Big Picture]

3 hours ago, Clogiron said:

The entire basis of that report is false in that it fails to recognise that the European Super League was a by product of the Australian pay per view fight between Murdoch and the ARL who were backed by Packer. Murdoch signed up the British game to close off a source of player's for the ARL, the money it cost was chicken feed in relation to what was being lashed out be both antagonists in Australia, Murdoch got some filler for his summer schedule from it but had little desire in 'saving' the British game as the well worn story trotted out by his apologists has it.

Not recognizing that the European Super League was a byproduct of the Australian pay-TV fight between Murdoch and the Packer-backed ARL does not invalidate the report in any way.  Whether Murdoch intended to save the British game doesn't change the fact that the money which News Corp. put up effectively did save it.  A few years earlier Framing the Future showed that British RL was in big trouble, and the money from News Corp. was undeniably a lifeline for it.

[M j M]

5 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Not recognizing that the European Super League was a byproduct of the Australian pay-TV fight between Murdoch and the Packer-backed ARL does not invalidate the report in any way.  Whether Murdoch intended to save the British game doesn't change the fact that the money which News Corp. put up effectively did save it.  A few years earlier Framing the Future showed that British RL was in big trouble, and the money from News Corp. was undeniably a lifeline for it.

The report was from the same people who did the 2013 hatchet piece which was produced to overshadow the launch of the new Super League season and exclaimed shock and concern that the SL clubs were £68m in debt. Regardless that most of this was owed to club owners who didn't want it back, regardless that this was a tiny amount compared to other sports.

Don't give people like that credibility by quoting them.

[Angelic Cynic]

Anyone have a date when the severance packet for Elstone will be released by the transparent governing body of Super League?

The award winning, transparent,RFL did reveal figures when Nigel Wood left

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/16/rfl-2m-losses-over-300000-nigel-wood

[sweaty craiq]

27 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Anyone have a date when the severance packet for Elstone will be released by the transparent governing body of Super League?

The award winning, transparent,RFL did reveal figures when Nigel Wood left

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/16/rfl-2m-losses-over-300000-nigel-wood

We all know a salary offer to a ceo has a mutual notice period - being fired negates that though - but I have always been a fan of low basic high reward, you get the hungry looking for the break and if it fails it costs little in pay off. Elstone falls into the professional no achiever imo, jumps from job to job because he has 'done it before' with a long paid up holiday in between. 

Lets get the 'visionary' prepared to back themselves - also time for a woman imo, especially one of colour but not a BLM fan - media would be all over the sport.

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

We all know a salary offer to a ceo has a mutual notice period - being fired negates that though - but I have always been a fan of low basic high reward, you get the hungry looking for the break and if it fails it costs little in pay off. Elstone falls into the professional no achiever imo, jumps from job to job because he has 'done it before' with a long paid up holiday in between. 

Lets get the 'visionary' prepared to back themselves - also time for a woman imo, especially one of colour but not a BLM fan - media would be all over the sport.

Elstone does not jump from job to job. He was at his previous job at Everton for 12 years. 

[gingerjon]

26 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Elstone does not jump from job to job. He was at his previous job at Everton for 12 years. 

The original scapegoat, I believe, had all the sins of the community symbolically placed upon it before it was then sacrificed. In so doing, those who who had actually committed the sins could believe themselves to be innocent of them.

I don't know why but that's been in my head a lot recently.

[JohnM]

54 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

We all know a salary offer to a ceo has a mutual notice period - being fired negates that though - but I have always been a fan of low basic high reward, you get the hungry looking for the break and if it fails it costs little in pay off. Elstone falls into the professional no achiever imo, jumps from job to job because he has 'done it before' with a long paid up holiday in between. 

Lets get the 'visionary' prepared to back themselves - also time for a woman imo, especially one of colour but not a BLM fan - media would be all over the sport.

Low basic high reward can work, as can paying the reward only on customer acceptance and final payment, not on order. Its not an excuse for regular performance review and proper management. So, in terms of Elstone, I'm with Dave T and Gingerjon. 

[Hela Wigmen]

"I'm sure there are people that would like that to be the case. Gary (Hetherington) has never hidden the fact he wants Leeds to be the centre of the universe and the RFL, who were once in Leeds, to be the centre of his universe."

Ian Lenegan not mixing his words. 

[whatmichaelsays]

16 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

"I'm sure there are people that would like that to be the case. Gary (Hetherington) has never hidden the fact he wants Leeds to be the centre of the universe and the RFL, who were once in Leeds, to be the centre of his universe."

Ian Lenegan not mixing his words. 

A cheap and needless shot from Lenegan. 

Maybe he should spend more time listening to people like Hetherington? He might learn how to turn Wigan into a profitable club. 

[M j M]

18 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

"I'm sure there are people that would like that to be the case. Gary (Hetherington) has never hidden the fact he wants Leeds to be the centre of the universe and the RFL, who were once in Leeds, to be the centre of his universe."

Ian Lenegan not mixing his words. 

No idea where that's from but Lenegan's history of failure as a Rugby League administrator, and the failure of his interventions into the sport beyond his own club, mean he is in an embarrassingly weak place to start talking out of turn about anyone else, least of all one of the UK games most successful figures.

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, M j M said:

No idea where that's from but Lenegan's history of failure as a Rugby League administrator, and the failure of his interventions into the sport beyond his own club, mean he is in an embarrassingly weak place to start talking out of turn about anyone else, least of all one of the UK games most successful figures.

It’s from an interview with Aaron Bower that is going on his paywalled Thirteen Rugby. I’m not sure what was asked or what sparked such a reaction but it’s certainly a strange outburst, even if he doesn’t see eye to eye with him. 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

"I'm sure there are people that would like that to be the case. Gary (Hetherington) has never hidden the fact he wants Leeds to be the centre of the universe and the RFL, who were once in Leeds, to be the centre of his universe."

Ian Lenegan not mixing his words. 

My previous assumption proven right then. Lenegan is far too proud and intertwined with project Elstone to accept its limitations and failings, taking its failure as a personal slight.

He also will hate the fact Gary Hetherington can sit there and say "I told you so".

[M j M]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

He also will hate the fact Gary Hetherington can sit there and say "I told you so".

This x100. Hetherington was there when they tried to do this before with the Super League (Europe) breakaway - and was part of the small group who put it all back together again, and saved the RFL from bankruptcy early this century.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, M j M said:

This x100. Hetherington was there when they tried to do this before with the Super League (Europe) breakaway - and was part of the small group who put it all back together again, and saved the RFL from bankruptcy early this century.

From this reaction, and other people like McManus turning against Elstone recently, it seems Lenegan was the premier proponent of the split and has taken the end of Elstone's rule as a mark against his judgement.