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I'm surprised by comments that Richard I Lewis didn't make a real difference. In his tenure, he: - Reunited BARLA and the RFL after 30 years of separation - Oversaw the addition of the Catal

They may pay lip service to growing the game but for a fair number of clubs their main interest is self-preservation. If you are a struggling SL club then realistically ‘growing the game’ is improving

Elstone as an "unfortunate unable to defend himself"..  well that's an interesting take on his situation.. he certainly had no problem piling in on TWP when they were down. And what should be a s

19 hours ago, theswanmcr said:

Ok then let’s say Toronto were a basket case. Then at least a quarter of SL are too - loss leading businesses in decrepit stadiums, propped up solely off Sky funding (of which Toronto never received any!!).

Elstone was a useless joke but in so many ways that was his job - the role is a purposefully puppet dictator with no real power who is answerable to SL clubs whose main interest is keeping themselves in business. Most have no interest in growing the game.

So the role will never have any strategy vision and will actively discourage this to protect members interests eg writing some half-asked ‘report’ noting Facebook figures to justify turning your back on a new international market.

TWP were a basket case from before they got promotion to SL.  They were not paying suppliers whilst they were in the Championship and whilst they were the responsibility of the RFL.

Are we to believe that in that state they should be parachuted back in whilst other perfectly respectable "real" RL clubs with perfectly respectable set ups and stadiums are ignored?

Just what Superleague teams we should have and how many is a completely different issue.  And a thorny one. 

But the idea of adding in a Canadian team into our league structure has turned out to be quite flawed.  Trying to stick this to Elstone is a joke....  But the fact is that one section which has their own agenda are simply using Elstone as a lever.

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19 hours ago, redjonn said:

Just trying to understand the logic of the middle paragraph.  If the main interest of SL clubs is keeping themselves in business, then surely it follows they would have a keen interest in growing the game to improve their business.

Maybe grow the business in places that work?  Maybe grow the business with investment... But the majority of SL clubs turned their back on that.

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48 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

TWP were a basket case from before they got promotion to SL.  They were not paying suppliers whilst they were in the Championship and whilst they were the responsibility of the RFL.

Are we to believe that in that state they should be parachuted back in whilst other perfectly respectable "real" RL clubs with perfectly respectable set ups and stadiums are ignored?

Just what Superleague teams we should have and how many is a completely different issue.  And a thorny one. 

But the idea of adding in a Canadian team into our league structure has turned out to be quite flawed.  Trying to stick this to Elstone is a joke....  But the fact is that one section which has their own agenda are simply using Elstone as a lever.

I’m not trying to pin the whole thing on Elstone - he didn’t let them in to the league structure and I actually agree that having a Canadian club in our structure isn’t necessarily the way to go. But he did his very best to make sure they weren’t readmitted.

As for ‘real’ clubs... some SL clubs still play in a stadium where you p*as in the rain against a brick wall and have no academies. And they’ve had a century to get there.

As a SL club Toronto should have been given support (advice and finance) to survive a global pandemic half way across the world just as much as any other club. Elstone should have had the vision to see how they could help grow the game. Instead he gave them nothing but a stitched-up report condemning them to extinction.

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1 hour ago, theswanmcr said:

I’m not trying to pin the whole thing on Elstone - he didn’t let them in to the league structure and I actually agree that having a Canadian club in our structure isn’t necessarily the way to go. But he did his very best to make sure they weren’t readmitted.

As for ‘real’ clubs... some SL clubs still play in a stadium where you p*as in the rain against a brick wall and have no academies. And they’ve had a century to get there.

As a SL club Toronto should have been given support (advice and finance) to survive a global pandemic half way across the world just as much as any other club. Elstone should have had the vision to see how they could help grow the game. Instead he gave them nothing but a stitched-up report condemning them to extinction.

Hmm... look you make fair comments but...

TWP were supposed to be owned by a billionaire.  I'm sure that was what the RLF took into account in the first place.  Loom at how that panned out.

Grounds... as examples, Leigh Fev and York have good grounds.  There is a major flaw with front line RL in that there are 2 teams in Wigan, 3 in Wakefield and 2 in Hull.  And indeed a string surrounding Leeds.  Whilst this is a serious problem (I think), it is also fair to say that many NRL clubs are centred around Sydney.

However... The NRL have merged teams as they have expanded.  They face up to reality.   Not facing up to reality is the clubs fault, and indeed the RFL, not Elstone.  And bare in mind last season was a shambles not for Elstones fault and he cut his salary. Any real ideas have been in abeyance and likely go for this season as well.

The likelihood is we will drift along with the same old same old untill the game drifts away to nothing.  Or until force majeure kicks us into life.

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14 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Hmm... look you make fair comments but...

TWP were supposed to be owned by a billionaire.  I'm sure that was what the RLF took into account in the first place.  Loom at how that panned out.

Grounds... as examples, Leigh Fev and York have good grounds.  There is a major flaw with front line RL in that there are 2 teams in Wigan, 3 in Wakefield and 2 in Hull.  And indeed a string surrounding Leeds.  Whilst this is a serious problem (I think), it is also fair to say that many NRL clubs are centred around Sydney.

However... The NRL have merged teams as they have expanded.  They face up to reality.   Not facing up to reality is the clubs fault, and indeed the RFL, not Elstone.  And bare in mind last season was a shambles not for Elstones fault and he cut his salary. Any real ideas have been in abeyance and likely go for this season as well.

The likelihood is we will drift along with the same old same old untill the game drifts away to nothing.  Or until force majeure kicks us into life.

Regarding Elstones part in the demise of Toronto, I think it needs to be said that Elstone's attitude and demeanor towards them, from the day he took the job was abject negativity.

Consider for a moment, the effect that that might have had on David Argyles motivation to continue, pouring millions into a project when he's being told daily, that they are not wanted in the competition.

Yes, the pandemic might have decimated his global businesses (who knows for certain) but if he was feeling the pinch and all he gets is Elstone's sour face spouting more criticism, continually turning a cold shoulder, more doom mongering about the appropriateness of their inclusion in the competition, on and on and on, well I say, its not surprising that he pulled the plug in a ''f....k you'' gesture. He's a human being, after all. 

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Sour faced? He's like a talking hatchet. 

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14 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

Hmm... look you make fair comments but...

TWP were supposed to be owned by a billionaire.  I'm sure that was what the RLF took into account in the first place.  Loom at how that panned out.

Grounds... as examples, Leigh Fev and York have good grounds.  There is a major flaw with front line RL in that there are 2 teams in Wigan, 3 in Wakefield and 2 in Hull.  And indeed a string surrounding Leeds.  Whilst this is a serious problem (I think), it is also fair to say that many NRL clubs are centred around Sydney.

However... The NRL have merged teams as they have expanded.  They face up to reality.   Not facing up to reality is the clubs fault, and indeed the RFL, not Elstone.  And bare in mind last season was a shambles not for Elstones fault and he cut his salary. Any real ideas have been in abeyance and likely go for this season as well.

The likelihood is we will drift along with the same old same old untill the game drifts away to nothing.  Or until force majeure kicks us into life.

Mergers may work in other countries but sporting culture is different here. Other than Inverness CT (which some fans still object to) has there been a successful merger in top level UK sport? It’s been tried and failed in RL over here too. 

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9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Mergers may work in other countries but sporting culture is different here. Other than Inverness CT (which some fans still object to) has there been a successful merger in top level UK sport? It’s been tried and failed in RL over here too. 

Plenty did in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, though in more recent years, depending on what your definition of success is, examples of mergers include Welsh RU clubs, TNS FC in Wales and a few examples in non-league football. 

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18 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Mergers may work in other countries but sporting culture is different here. Other than Inverness CT (which some fans still object to) has there been a successful merger in top level UK sport? It’s been tried and failed in RL over here too. 

I wonder why some clubs are called "United" . Suggests to me the union of two or more clubs. Is there another explanation?

Four legs good - two legs bad

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29 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Plenty did in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, though in more recent years, depending on what your definition of success is, examples of mergers include Welsh RU clubs, TNS FC in Wales and a few examples in non-league football. 

That was a long time ago....seems that you folks over there have lost your nerve and 'suave de vive' when it comes to risk taking and taking a chance on such things...like an old man who will take no risks you are...a reflection of current culture in England I suppose...too bad, so sad.

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1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

That was a long time ago....seems that you folks over there have lost your nerve and 'suave de vive' when it comes to risk taking and taking a chance on such things...like an old man who will take no risks you are...a reflection of current culture in England I suppose...too bad, so sad.

Kman, Are you going to get involved in this CCCRL start up? 

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Just now, fighting irish said:

Kman, Are you going to get involved in this CCCRL start up? 

I've been following it from a distance...still not exactly sure what is up....watching...waiting.

 

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37 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Plenty did in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, though in more recent years, depending on what your definition of success is, examples of mergers include Welsh RU clubs, TNS FC in Wales and a few examples in non-league football. 

Over 100 years ago doesn’t really count because sporting culture hadn’t developed then. But yes there aren’t many examples are there. I’d forgotten about the Welsh RU ones though, not that they’re particularly well supported. 

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33 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I wonder why some clubs are called "United" . Suggests to me the union of two or more clubs. Is there another explanation?

The fact that you have to ask that shows how long ago it must have been if there were any, and how irrelevant that would be today. However no I don’t think United generally means there was a merger, Manchester United for example doesn’t, it was just a name they chose when they moved their franchise across the city to Old Trafford. 

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4 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I've been following it from a distance...still not exactly sure what is up....watching...waiting.

 

I hope they give it all they've got.

I hope too, that with modest success they can stimulate something similar South of the border and/or perhaps draw some of the yanks into the Canadian comp. 

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7 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

That was a long time ago....seems that you folks over there have lost your nerve and 'suave de vive' when it comes to risk taking and taking a chance on such things...like an old man who will take no risks you are...a reflection of current culture in England I suppose...too bad, so sad.

You don’t think voting to leave the EU reflected a culture of being prepared to take a risk? 

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1 minute ago, fighting irish said:

I hope they give it all they've got.

I hope to, that with modest success they can stimulate something similar South of the border and/or perhaps draw some of the yanks into the Canadian comp. 

It appears to be a 'start up'....I think getting it going and then bringing in a few US teams is a good idea....the real question is , "Can they make any money at it?"-----I think they can but it might take a while..I certainly wish them all the best.

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3 minutes ago, Eddie said:

You don’t think voting to leave the EU reflected a culture of being prepared to take a risk? 

Why are you trying to draw me into that mess Fast Eddie?????....what did I ever do to you!!!!!!

Here we have a little bit of a warm weather window finally developing and I'm heading into the Bush for a few days and you gotta go and ruin it with something about the EU,,,,,the temperature finally makes it above zero and you gotta throw some water on the fire....I'm surprised at you Fast Eddie!

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9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The fact that you have to ask that shows how long ago it must have been if there were any, and how irrelevant that would be today. However no I don’t think United generally means there was a merger, Manchester United for example doesn’t, it was just a name they chose when they moved their franchise across the city to Old Trafford. 

Leeds United aren't either, just Leeds City rebranded

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Just now, Kayakman said:

Why are you trying to draw me into that mess Fast Eddie?????....what did I ever do to you!!!!!!

Here we have a little bit of a warm weather window finally developing and I'm heading into the Bush for a few days and you gotta go and ruin it with something about the EU,,,,,the temperature finally makes it above zero and you gotta throw some water on the fire....I'm surprised at you Fast Eddie!

Well if you accuse England of being a no risk nation, then you can expect to be pulled up on it. Regarding SL and TWP though, I’m in total agreement. 

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