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Leigh Academy update


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23 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Why should any team be refused entry to an academy league system, it can be divisional whereas teams are either sanctioned a place geographically or financially, the only reason I can imagine for there being fewer licences granted than the number of applications put forward is to protect the monopoly that some teams enjoy. 

A couple of years ago Whitehaven applied to run an academy team, but were knocked back by the RFL claiming it would have a detrimental effect on the community game in West Cumbria.

Yet at the same time, Newcastle were free to come over to West Cumbria, to sign anyone they wished for their academy...

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17 minutes ago, Moominman said:

A couple of years ago Whitehaven applied to run an academy team, but were knocked back by the RFL claiming it would have a detrimental effect on the community game in West Cumbria.

Yet at the same time, Newcastle were free to come over to West Cumbria, to sign anyone they wished for their academy...

Be prepared to be asked to prove your story 😉

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I find it difficult to comprehend the logic of Academy sides when there are not any reserve sides...well,a limited number of reserve sides allowed.

I find it difficult to comprehend why clubs are permitted to have Academy players from outside their own areas.

Hull and St Helens or whoever,signing Welsh youngsters for their Academies may be viewed as giving those youngsters a better opportunity than if they remained in their home area,but it may result in what happens in soccer,where the rich clubs maintain their monopoly by signing up the best players from anywhere they choose.    

It no longer becomes a method where they improve their youngsters by coaching but is simply a 'buying success' at an earlier age.

Soccer clubs bribe parents etc.

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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1 hour ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I find it difficult to comprehend the logic of Academy sides when there are not any reserve sides...well,a limited number of reserve sides allowed.

I find it difficult to comprehend why clubs are permitted to have Academy players from outside their own areas.

Hull and St Helens or whoever,signing Welsh youngsters for their Academies may be viewed as giving those youngsters a better opportunity than if they remained in their home area,but it may result in what happens in soccer,where the rich clubs maintain their monopoly by signing up the best players from anywhere they choose.    

It no longer becomes a method where they improve their youngsters by coaching but is simply a 'buying success' at an earlier age.

Soccer clubs bribe parents etc.

There used to be limits on the number of kids you could have in a scholarship , and yet I've had parents telling me there were up to twice as many kids at the scholarship training sessions as certain clubs were allowed 

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2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

I meant the Whitehaven part 

This was referred to in the RFL's own minutes from the 2019 meeting, where the RFL determined which clubs would be permitted to join the 2020 Academy Leagues.

Whitehaven for their own part stated that they were disappointed with the RFL's decision, but would comment no further.

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21 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Also can't be ignored how a huge increase in funding helped that too

Off course it helped does £1.825M not assist EVERY club in SL, some more than others but without doubt they all benefit from it.

The most any Championship team has recieved from central funding is (from memory) 750K and not many have recieved that, as @Davo5 intimates some Championship clubs have utilised the funding far more constructively than some SL clubs.

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39 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Off course it helped does £1.825M not assist EVERY club in SL, some more than others but without doubt they all benefit from it.

The most any Championship team has recieved from central funding is (from memory) 750K and not many have recieved that, as @Davo5 intimates some Championship clubs have utilised the funding far more constructively than some SL clubs.

Of course they should have. Any club receiving between £100k to £600k more than nearly all their competitors should be spending that money more constructively as the impetus to spend it all on the squad is far lower.

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12 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I find it difficult to comprehend the logic of Academy sides when there are not any reserve sides...well,a limited number of reserve sides allowed.

I find it difficult to comprehend why clubs are permitted to have Academy players from outside their own areas.

Hull and St Helens or whoever,signing Welsh youngsters for their Academies may be viewed as giving those youngsters a better opportunity than if they remained in their home area,but it may result in what happens in soccer,where the rich clubs maintain their monopoly by signing up the best players from anywhere they choose.    

It no longer becomes a method where they improve their youngsters by coaching but is simply a 'buying success' at an earlier age.

Soccer clubs bribe parents etc.

The top clubs sign players from outside their own area because they get off their ***** and spend time & resources running coaching clinics and actively searching for talent in those non heartland area’s,a lot of clubs just can’t be bothered.

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12 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I find it difficult to comprehend the logic of Academy sides when there are not any reserve sides...well,a limited number of reserve sides allowed.

I find it difficult to comprehend why clubs are permitted to have Academy players from outside their own areas.

Hull and St Helens or whoever,signing Welsh youngsters for their Academies may be viewed as giving those youngsters a better opportunity than if they remained in their home area,but it may result in what happens in soccer,where the rich clubs maintain their monopoly by signing up the best players from anywhere they choose.    

It no longer becomes a method where they improve their youngsters by coaching but is simply a 'buying success' at an earlier age.

Soccer clubs bribe parents etc.

Where does the Welsh prospect go though? Union academy? It’s not perfect but as a sport that does not cover large swathes of the country, pro teams scouting the rest of the country for good players is a way to expand the potential player pool surely, 

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12 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I find it difficult to comprehend the logic of Academy sides when there are not any reserve sides...well,a limited number of reserve sides allowed.

I find it difficult to comprehend why clubs are permitted to have Academy players from outside their own areas.

Hull and St Helens or whoever,signing Welsh youngsters for their Academies may be viewed as giving those youngsters a better opportunity than if they remained in their home area,but it may result in what happens in soccer,where the rich clubs maintain their monopoly by signing up the best players from anywhere they choose.    

It no longer becomes a method where they improve their youngsters by coaching but is simply a 'buying success' at an earlier age.

Soccer clubs bribe parents etc.

Couple of points from that.

Firstly the world is far more connected, its feasible to live in Wigan and train in Leeds. People will travel.

Secondly, not all clubs are equal. You'd genuinely be committing human rights abuses about freedom of work by saying to young lads that they have to join Wakefield's academy because that is where they were born and raised, despite the facilities and investment in the academy being ######. More than likely you'd see more savvy youngsters and their parents abandoning certain areas clubs in favour of others from age 12 upwards. If the best players at Stanley or Leigh Miners moved to Oulton or St Judes and the former 2 teams folded would that be a "win" for the sport because of an arbitrary policy?

Competitive professional sport isn't the same as representative sport. Clubs have a duty of care to their own business to ensure they thrive going forwards, some are vastly better at that than others. And equally for players, when not all career options are equal, making sensible choices should not be shunned.

In soccer we actually see a far more advanced market where less well off clubs can build a successful financial model. A club like Ajax, Leicester or now Leeds seek to recruit promising young talent (that they can offer game time to in a high division because they don't have huge sums of money) which can then be sold for a significant fee to a bigger club whilst having had the benefit and reputational boost to progress their club forwards. These clubs might not spend a lot but they will spend significant proportions of their income on players who are 25 and younger. The almost total lack of transfer market in RL prevents the likes of Leigh, Widnes, Salford, Wakefield etc doing the same, as there is no sell on benefit. 

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1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Of course they should have. Any club receiving between £100k to £600k more than nearly all their competitors should be spending that money more constructively as the impetus to spend it all on the squad is far lower.

The purpose of the weighted money was to grow the FT base with SL ambitions to allow a competitive 8's. Take it away and the 'promoted' club would be dead in the water unless their promotion was in August, and the relegated club would be royally shagged dropping to 100k funding

 

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33 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

The purpose of the weighted money was to grow the FT base with SL ambitions to allow a competitive 8's. Take it away and the 'promoted' club would be dead in the water unless their promotion was in August, and the relegated club would be royally shagged dropping to 100k funding

 

And? If Leeds were getting up to 4x as much funding as Salford, Leeds wouldn't need to be spending all of it to beat them, and numerous championship and super league clubs waited to recruit specifically for the 8s

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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The almost total lack of transfer market in RL prevents the likes of Leigh, Widnes, Salford, Wakefield etc doing the same, as there is no sell on benefit. 

Yes this is what is wrong with the contract system, it helps the big clubs who hoover up all the talent just to 'cherry pick' a few thus preventing other clubs from employing them as kids bringing them on then making a few bob when they move on.

Those player's who are no longer of any use to the big clubs would be jettisoned just as they are now as free agents.

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11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes this is what is wrong with the contract system, it helps the big clubs who hoover up all the talent just to 'cherry pick' a few thus preventing other clubs from employing them as kids bringing them on then making a few bob when they move on.

Those player's who are no longer of any use to the big clubs would be jettisoned just as they are now as free agents.

There are still players coming through the smaller clubs though, not a lot but a few gems, the likes of Trueman at Cas or Johnstone at Wakefield come to mind as the current examples, but there is minimal incentive for the big clubs to pay big bucks for them, they'll just wait till their, usually shorter length contracts run out and try sign them for free then.

It also works in the favour of the smaller clubs very often. For example Kyle Amor couldn't get in at Leeds before a free move to Wakefield (during which time they were, by their standards, quite a good team) then a big (but still free) move to St Helens. Man of Steel, Paul McShane followed a similar path eventually to Castleford. So the small clubs are risking certain elements of the status quo that work for them by changing the dynamic and culture of the free signings model. I would like to think it would be worthwhile, but plenty of clubs are naturally risk, or indeed change, averse.

Ironically the major recent, and rare, transfer fee that comes to mind is Cas paying Leeds for Zak Hardaker! What we actually need is more stories like Daryl Clark's, whom Warrington paid Castleford £185k for the services of. Not only is it a potential large media focus, but it ensures that smaller clubs are getting some fiscal reward for giving younger/unproven talents an opportunity rather than them just doing what happened to say Hastings at Salford to Wigan. Trickle down economics and all that.

There's also implications to the salary cap of transfer fees which I think are self defeating.

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Super League clubs decide.Good Oh.

Super League clubs have the monopoly - finance and players.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/funding-reserves-reviews-how-the-academy-system-moves-forward-post-covid/

Looks like 2 from Wales and 3 from York - if it is the Heworth,York,in the Hull FC Academy.

 

 

 

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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25 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

Super League clubs decide.Good Oh.

Super League clubs have the monopoly - finance and players.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/funding-reserves-reviews-how-the-academy-system-moves-forward-post-covid/

Looks like 2 from Wales and 3 from York - if it is the Heworth,York,in the Hull FC Academy.

 

 

 

And 1 from Leeds and 1 from RU too

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Apologies for dragging this up again but I haven't had the time to post and would like to say that if Leigh have a very committed rich owner, and very modern stadium and are going to run a first class academy then this looks great to me. 

The more clubs who can operate in good stadiums with player development and sound financial backing the better we are. Relegation is likely I know but they only had weeks to prepare. I hope they do well......

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The alternative to an official academy is to have your own Elite player development through your community foundation not the worst idea anyone has had to be fair. If wanted/skilful enough we could be filtering 16 year old players into York and getting them back to play for us but in the meantime they go to York for extra training sessions and sometimes appear on matchday squads if registered especially in cups. 

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2 hours ago, Harrogate Fire Ants said:

The alternative to an official academy is to have your own Elite player development through your community foundation not the worst idea anyone has had to be fair. If wanted/skilful enough we could be filtering 16 year old players into York and getting them back to play for us but in the meantime they go to York for extra training sessions and sometimes appear on matchday squads if registered especially in cups. 

A lot of clubs have "Category 3" academies (I don't know what CAT2 are but CAT1 is a Super League academy) that run in partnership with local colleges. This includes championship clubs like Halifax etc, but also Super League clubs like Leeds and I believe Wakefield for example who run both CAT1 and CAT3 academies. 

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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

A lot of clubs have "Category 3" academies (I don't know what CAT2 are but CAT1 is a Super League academy) that run in partnership with local colleges. This includes championship clubs like Halifax etc, but also Super League clubs like Leeds and I believe Wakefield for example who run both CAT1 and CAT3 academies. 

You raise a good question about Cat 2 academies, I'm not entirely sure what they are myself, or how they compete. I'm not aware of any clubs running cat 2 academies either, presumably because not having the cat 1 status blocks you from playing in the Academy league so a lack of credible opposition becomes an issue. I believe one of the big reasons Leigh ultimately disbanded their reserves was a lack of available games and a request to join the SL reserve league being rejected. The cat 3 academies don't being a lot of results in terms of elite level players but they do serve a really good purpose in terms of keeping youngsters on the fringes of the game focused on life after rugby.

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On 18/03/2021 at 18:44, GUBRATS said:

Personally , and this is speaking as a Leigh fan and former academy director at the club , I wouldn't bother 

And that's the decision the Widnes board came to this year as well. If you have a limited annual budget, better to spend it on players for this season rather than on developing future players for your competitors. Not clear to me that the cost/benefit is there for Leigh.

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