2025 RLWC to be held in France

[The Rocket]

13 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

 

 

But if we locked in France for 2029 that gives the entire game of RL 8 years to do everything possible to help France be a success and generate eight years of commercial and first team growth. If FRL is confident it can make 2025 a success ok but I just feel 2029 gives us more opportunity to guarantee that reality. 

I`ll give you the tip Shropshire, new IRL boss Troy Grant ( I got him mixed up with John Grant previously) was the Minister for Gaming, Hospitality and Racing in 2014,2015 and 2017 this would have brought him into close contact with Peter V`landy`s who is boss of Racing NSW. When Grant left politics in 2017 V`landy`s appointed him to some Board or other at NSW Racing, that would be a nice little earner for not doing much. Now he turns up as the boss of the IRL, and before you know it mid-season Tests are scrapped as V`landy`s attempts to reinvigorate SOO.

V`landy`s, Beattie and co. aren`t mugs, they know that the rise of the Pacific Islands has been a boon, but they also know that we can`t just rely on England to host Internationals that make money. The scrapping of mid-season Tests and the choice of France to hold the 2025 WC has V`landy`s and Beatties mitts all over it. They could wait for 2029, but that isn`t their style they want it and they want it now. French speaking Trent Robinson helping out with France in the WC, the QRL bringing in Pacific Trieze and Mr Sadler said on another forum recently that the NRL don`t seem to have a plan. My ar-se.

Grant appointed as the new International Rugby League Chairman - NRL News

 

 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I think its about strategic planning, knowing the market and actually not overwhelming certain areas, whilst accepting that crowd/success levels are relative.

The Kiwis in the last series got 17k in Hull, way down on what they got there a few years prior, I'm almost certain because it wasn't the only game in Yorkshire for that series. The 3rd game at Leeds despite being a dead rubber, virtually sold out with an extra 15 thousand people and I've no doubt that plenty of people who would have made the extra effort to get to Hull saw Leeds as the far more convenient option. That put a lot of pressure on the people of Hull and its sparsely populated environs. If anything, that series demonstrated that the 1 Yorkshire, 1 London, 1 Lancashire, formula for 3 match test series' should be an automatic pick.

I actually feel that the Kiwis are a potentially bigger draw than the Australians for us, if not that then at least as big. I think that's especially true amongst the "peripheral RL" audience for whom NZ = Good rugby team (because of the success and profile of the All Blacks) far more than the Green and Gold sadly. That was my main takeaway from the test at the Olympic stadium for the kiwi series in 2015 vs the game against Australia in the 2016 4 Nations. 

One of my main concerns for the 2021 tournament is the "3rd game" in the likes of Doncaster, Warrington, Leigh etc. who all have a premium fixture within 20 minutes drive. I do also think these are the sort of fixtures that are a bit of a shame to have not gone more off piste to the likes of Bristol, Gloucester, and the obvious gap of fixtures in London.

I think you're right about the reason the crowd was so low in Hull for that game and I will also add the lack of marketing and advertising for that series.

Around the same time in Hull, I think it was the UK Seniors snooker was being held at the new arena, a very small tournament in the world of snooker but all over the city centre there were posters advertising it, and I mean everywhere, billboards, advertising boards, even big stickers on the pavements around the city centre squares. There was absolutely nothing at all to tell people that a massive RL international was also taking place. Nothing.

Now this doesn't matter so much for hardcore, dedicated fans such as ourselves who follow RL on social media and websites such as this, get email updates on goings on from the RFL and buy specialist magazines and papers and what have you but for a lot of more casual support, or a lot of older fans, or even just people not into technology quite as much for that matter, there was nothing at all to tell them this was even going on. 

When I went back to work the first Monday after the game I had a couple of work colleagues ask me what I did at the weekend. They were fully aware I am a massive league fan. They would always ask me what I thought of the rugby that had taken place at the weekend. They would have known I went to the game, if they had even been aware the game had happened. As I say, outside of a small group of hardcore fans, no one was even aware that game happened. 

[Damien]

14 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

V`landy`s, Beattie and co. aren`t mugs, they know that the rise of the Pacific Islands has been a boon, but they also know that we can`t just rely on England to host Internationals that make money. The scrapping of mid-season Tests and the choice of France to hold the 2025 WC has V`landy`s and Beatties mitts all over it. They could wait for 2029, but that isn`t their style they want it and they want it now. French speaking Trent Robinson helping out with France in the WC, the QRL bringing in Pacific Trieze and Mr Sadler said on another forum recently that the NRL don`t seem to have a plan. My ar-se.

Yes the plan seems to be kill off any possible competition to SOO, scrap mid season internationals to suit clubs and the NRL and duck out of any possible attempt to make Australia host the 2025 World Cup. I would love to see the 2025 World Cup in France but lets not pretend its anything but convenient for the NRL.

I said for years the only reason the NRL backed the Pacific Tests was about controlling the international game and preventing its growth. Pretend to do a little but all the time control and restrict what can be done. This is exactly what happened. The moment England and NZ tried to go beyond NRL control the NRL sabotaged it and ensured it never happened again. Mid season internationals could have been huge but the NRL simply don't want them to be. Neither do they want to kill the Golden Goose that is SOO.

Now they have killed off mid season internationals completely. One extra week at the end of the season means diddly squat, that's if that even happens and I imagine all we will see is pretty much what we get anyway at the end of the season. We are now not going to see internationals from the best RL nations on the planet for 11 months of the year. The rise of Tonga, Fiji, Samoa and the continuing development of PNG has been fantastic but all the NRL wants is a source of players and enough to keep those players happy without jeopardising anything else.

[The Rocket]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yes the plan seems to be kill off any possible competition to SOO, scrap mid season internationals to suit clubs and the NRL and duck out of any possible attempt to make Australia host the 2025 World Cup. I would love to see the 2025 World Cup in France but lets not pretend its anything but convenient for the NRL.

As I said the first part of that is probably true, but don`t underestimate the ambition of V`landy`s he did create the Everest, the world richest turf race.

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

Mid season internationals could have been huge but the NRL simply don't want them to be.

As long as both competitions have such long seasons midyear Tests are going to be problematic, how long can you halt the competition to hold anything meaningful ? Especially when teams rely on that many games to pay their bills.  Presently we also have SOO to consider $30m+ a year, you can`t just expect them to walk away from that. Abdo talking about 18 teams, conferences and a 21-22 round season may reveal their thinking on that. That would at least give us a bit more flexibility down here.

They could wait until 2029 for France to hold the Cup, but why not have it now and take advantage of the momentum of 2021. Even if it isn`t a big as 2021 it`s going to have to be held in France sooner or later, so why not get on with it,  have it now and keep the ball rolling in France.

 Like it or not, these blokes will be putting Oz first, one of the great strengths of Rugby League world-wide is the strength of the game down here and the NRL in particular, growth is happening very slowly up your way, but they are not going to jeopardise its` status down here. It`s in everyones interest that the NRL keep on doing what they are, let`s face it they have trashed Australian rugby and now their got their eyes on N.Z.

I`ve had enough of this now, you can lash out at the Australians that`s your prerogative, having France hold the WC might be the best thing that happens to League in your neck of the woods in years, or we can wait until union changes its` rules and makes its game more attractive and then it will be too late. Missed the boat, again.

 

 

 

[RP London]

just realised this will be the autumn after my lad leaves school and is 18 (which is scary enough about how time flies) which does mean this could be a very messy world cup and may need to book into the rehab centre for my return!! 

I'm looking forward to it more each day!

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

As I said the first part of that is probably true, but don`t underestimate the ambition of V`landy`s he did create the Everest, the world richest turf race.

As long as both competitions have such long seasons midyear Tests are going to be problematic, how long can you halt the competition to hold anything meaningful ? Especially when teams rely on that many games to pay their bills.  Presently we also have SOO to consider $30m+ a year, you can`t just expect them to walk away from that. Abdo talking about 18 teams, conferences and a 21-22 round season may reveal their thinking on that. That would at least give us a bit more flexibility down here.

They could wait until 2029 for France to hold the Cup, but why not have it now and take advantage of the momentum of 2021. Even if it isn`t a big as 2021 it`s going to have to be held in France sooner or later, so why not get on with it,  have it now and keep the ball rolling in France.

 Like it or not, these blokes will be putting Oz first, one of the great strengths of Rugby League world-wide is the strength of the game down here and the NRL in particular, growth is happening very slowly up your way, but they are not going to jeopardise its` status down here. It`s in everyones interest that the NRL keep on doing what they are, let`s face it they have trashed Australian rugby and now their got their eyes on N.Z.

I`ve had enough of this now, you can lash out at the Australians that`s your prerogative, having France hold the WC might be the best thing that happens to League in your neck of the woods in years, or we can wait until union changes its` rules and makes its game more attractive and then it will be too late. Missed the boat, again.

Well this is the trouble. The chairman of the IRL should be impartial and should be putting international Rugby League first, not Australia. Growing the NRL and trying to make SOO the pinnacle should not be in the IRL chairman's remit, it shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

Every other major sport that I can think of solves all of the issues you describe quite easily. Sports with far larger and more congested fixture lists than in Rugby League. Its only Rugby League that displays an abject failure time and again.

[GeordieSaint]

5 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

<Snip>

I`ve had enough of this now, you can lash out at the Australians that`s your prerogative, having France hold the WC might be the best thing that happens to League in your neck of the woods in years, or we can wait until union changes its` rules and makes its game more attractive and then it will be too late. Missed the boat, again.

Don’t dip out... your posts are always interesting! Folk up here always get frustrated as post people on here realise it’s the international game that will drive real change on these shores and realise the Aussies are just not of the same mindset; as they don’t need it... it’s a clash of ideologies... Rugby League’s own Culture Wars! 

That said, but in bold is really important. The authorities at this end miss the boat time and time again. Some by design. Some by bad decision-making. Some simply due to a lack of resource. So I really like this agenda of the RLWC 25 in France. Only time will tell if it works but the sport here needs to impetus from somewhere... hopefully this year will be the foundational building blocks to drive the sport forward; but it does need a supportive NRL enabling; not hindering. 

[The Rocket]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Well this is the trouble. The chairman of the IRL should be impartial and should be putting international Rugby League first, not Australia. Growing the NRL and trying to make SOO the pinnacle should not be in the IRL chairman's remit, it shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

Every other major sport that I can think of solves all of the issues you describe quite easily. Sports with far larger and more congested fixture lists than in Rugby League. Its only Rugby League that displays an abject failure time and again.

Fair points Damien, but not all sports are like Rugby League, not even union with 35 minutes of ball-in-play and soccer neither with probably dozens of players to fill gaps in the firsts team or the national teams. Speak to any League player and they will tell you most players are playing busted by the end of the season. That`s why I thought it was a bit harsh when people criticised the Australians for not wanting the Ashes in 2022. WC 2021, SOO mid-year 2022, Ashes end of year 2022 ? we have to be mindful that the super stars in our game will participate in all those and probably some in the `22 Finals series, how many games can Cam Munster perform in on one leg before he comes over and takes you blokes apart.

 

 

[RP London]

29 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

As I said the first part of that is probably true, but don`t underestimate the ambition of V`landy`s he did create the Everest, the world richest turf race.

As long as both competitions have such long seasons midyear Tests are going to be problematic, how long can you halt the competition to hold anything meaningful ? Especially when teams rely on that many games to pay their bills.  Presently we also have SOO to consider $30m+ a year, you can`t just expect them to walk away from that. Abdo talking about 18 teams, conferences and a 21-22 round season may reveal their thinking on that. That would at least give us a bit more flexibility down here.

They could wait until 2029 for France to hold the Cup, but why not have it now and take advantage of the momentum of 2021. Even if it isn`t a big as 2021 it`s going to have to be held in France sooner or later, so why not get on with it,  have it now and keep the ball rolling in France.

 Like it or not, these blokes will be putting Oz first, one of the great strengths of Rugby League world-wide is the strength of the game down here and the NRL in particular, growth is happening very slowly up your way, but they are not going to jeopardise its` status down here. It`s in everyones interest that the NRL keep on doing what they are, let`s face it they have trashed Australian rugby and now their got their eyes on N.Z.

I`ve had enough of this now, you can lash out at the Australians that`s your prerogative, having France hold the WC might be the best thing that happens to League in your neck of the woods in years, or we can wait until union changes its` rules and makes its game more attractive and then it will be too late. Missed the boat, again.

 

 

 

Theres 2 frustrations intermingled here IMHO. The fact there is no international window is compounded by the fact that we cannot bring ourselves (for reasons often "explained" but i cannot comprehend) to play France or sort out anything for ourselves. That then leads to frustrations from people wanting an international window.. 

For me I have no issue with the SOO and the Aussies wanting to build that over them playing against other nations. But i would like them to make one a stand alone weekend for other nations to play if they wish. However, none of that stop us organising a fixture on a stand alone weekend in Super League FFS!

2021 and then France 2025 is hopefully what the northern hemisphere needs to be able to start this sort of thing. 

We have to get to the point where the southern hemisphere etc can do what it likes because so can we and then at the end of the season we can get together, our biggest failing is that we cannot do that and that is firmly on us.. 

Get regular games against France and Wales and help build them up. Get other countries playing each other too and a mini tournaments like the Football Nations league with promotion and relegation to help these teams. (maybe Canada and America will be in in time).. but England will have to accept that we will thrash them for a little while but what other options do we have? and that is fine... 

[RP London]

11 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Fair points Damien, but not all sports are like Rugby League, not even union with 35 minutes of ball-in-play and soccer neither with probably dozens of players to fill gaps in the firsts team or the national teams. Speak to any League player and they will tell you most players are playing busted by the end of the season. That`s why I thought it was a bit harsh when people criticised the Australians for not wanting the Ashes in 2022. WC 2021, SOO mid-year 2022, Ashes end of year 2022 ? we have to be mindful that the super stars in our game will participate in all those and probably some in the `22 Finals series, how many games can Cam Munster perform in on one leg before he comes over and takes you blokes apart.

 

 

but we are always told how far down the aussie teams you could go and still beat us (our 5th choice could beat you etc etc)... prove it  

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Fair points Damien, but not all sports are like Rugby League, not even union with 35 minutes of ball-in-play and soccer neither with probably dozens of players to fill gaps in the firsts team or the national teams. Speak to any League player and they will tell you most players are playing busted by the end of the season. That`s why I thought it was a bit harsh when people criticised the Australians for not wanting the Ashes in 2022. WC 2021, SOO mid-year 2022, Ashes end of year 2022 ? we have to be mindful that the super stars in our game will participate in all those and probably some in the `22 Finals series, how many games can Cam Munster perform in on one leg before he comes over and takes you blokes apart.

 

 

Sports people are conditioned to their sport. Super League players play far more games than NRL SOO players. Even SOO players have been known to back up for their NRL clubs within 48 hours..... not much concern about player welfare then or players playing busted.

There is also a lot more to international RL than just SOO players, who are just a tiny proportion of it. Player welfare is a complete red herring when it comes to having no mid season internationals or trying to scupper everyone else from having a proper international calendar.

[RP London]

in all seriousness though an England team beating Australia would potentially be great headline grabbing in the UK even if it was their 5th choice... just dont let the normal negative RL attitudes permeate to the press!

[bird]

5 hours ago, Damien said:

I agree 2000 was a disaster for all sorts of reasons.

For me it highlighted the need for a great, big bang start. Get that right and it tends to build a momentum. Dont and it puts off any potential neutrals for the rest of the tournament.

I'll never forget the sight of that opening match at Windsor Park in front of about 3k in absolutely atrocious weather. It was a terrible game, knock ons and stoppages aplenty, and set the tone. A solitary poster in Belfast City centre and the Soldiers Song ringing out across Windsor Park summed up all the preparation and planning. Literally no one had even considered the sensitivities around that and it shows the amount of local input, in 2000 it could have genuinely caused a riot. There may have been some big plans in 2000 but much of it was done very badly and was small time despite some of the venues.

The "Soldiers Song" was not played. " irelands Call" was used and there were no flags. I didn't think the game was that bad.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

Theres 2 frustrations intermingled here IMHO. The fact there is no international window is compounded by the fact that we cannot bring ourselves (for reasons often "explained" but i cannot comprehend) to play France or sort out anything for ourselves. That then leads to frustrations from people wanting an international window.. 

For me I have no issue with the SOO and the Aussies wanting to build that over them playing against other nations. But i would like them to make one a stand alone weekend for other nations to play if they wish. However, none of that stop us organising a fixture on a stand alone weekend in Super League FFS!

2021 and then France 2025 is hopefully what the northern hemisphere needs to be able to start this sort of thing. 

We have to get to the point where the southern hemisphere etc can do what it likes because so can we and then at the end of the season we can get together, our biggest failing is that we cannot do that and that is firmly on us.. 

Get regular games against France and Wales and help build them up. Get other countries playing each other too and a mini tournaments like the Football Nations league with promotion and relegation to help these teams. (maybe Canada and America will be in in time).. but England will have to accept that we will thrash them for a little while but what other options do we have? and that is fine... 

This is quite correct. Anytime the NRL is criticised Australian posters seem to take it personally. However if they care to take a look at any debate regarding the RFL's role and the game in the Northern hemisphere they will see that people are just as critical.

Others may disagree but I very much think it is up to both the RFL and NRL, as the premier RL organisations in their respective hemispheres, to do all they can to develop the game in those hemispheres. It is only in their interests after all for the game to flourish and they can only benefit from that.

[RP London]

22 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is quite correct. Anytime the NRL is criticised Australian posters seem to take it personally. However if they care to take a look at any debate regarding the RFL's role and the game in the Northern hemisphere they will see that people are just as critical.

Others may disagree but I very much think it is up to both the RFL and NRL, as the premier RL organisations in their respective hemispheres, to do all they can to develop the game in those hemispheres. It is only in their interests after all for the game to flourish and they can only benefit from that.

totally agree, especially the last paragraph.

I know people say it isnt in the RFLs remit to develop Wales or France etc but, while that is strictly true, it can only be a good thing for the RFL to have a strong neighbour and a strong national team to play against. Its not in their remit but its very much in their interests

[GUBRATS]

9 hours ago, Eddie said:

Average WC attendances since 1977 are all between 13-17k, other than 2000 when it was just 8.5k. That year there were some absolutely woeful crowds, I can barely believe how few people went to for example England v Fiji (10k), Aus v Samoa QF 5k, England v NZ SF 16k, even the final only got 44k.

I didn’t have much more than a passing interest in the game at that time, it went off my radar for a while when I moved South, can anyone remember why interest in that tournament was so low?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Rugby_League_World_Cup

 

I attended 3 games , the weather was bloody awful

[GUBRATS]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

As in the book - One Winter: Romance, Rock 'n' Roll and Rugby League in the Swinging Sixties, by Geoff Lee.

He says you can get anywhere in the world from Leigh bus station, which you can so no problem Spidey!

Indeed , I recall boarding a National Express coach there in 1975 , and a couple of days later I was in Upper Hutt New Zealand

[Manfred Mann]

10 hours ago, Eddie said:

Average WC attendances since 1977 are all between 13-17k, other than 2000 when it was just 8.5k. That year there were some absolutely woeful crowds, I can barely believe how few people went to for example England v Fiji (10k), Aus v Samoa QF 5k, England v NZ SF 16k, even the final only got 44k.

I didn’t have much more than a passing interest in the game at that time, it went off my radar for a while when I moved South, can anyone remember why interest in that tournament was so low?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Rugby_League_World_Cup

 

Yes.

The worst rain storms in over 100 years took place in England at the time of the 2000 RL World Cup.

[GUBRATS]

10 minutes ago, Manfred Mann said:

Yes.

The worst rain storms in over 100 years took place in England at the time of the 2000 RL World Cup.

This is probably the first truthful thing you've ever posted , congratulations 

[Dave T]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

Well this is the trouble. The chairman of the IRL should be impartial and should be putting international Rugby League first, not Australia. Growing the NRL and trying to make SOO the pinnacle should not be in the IRL chairman's remit, it shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

Every other major sport that I can think of solves all of the issues you describe quite easily. Sports with far larger and more congested fixture lists than in Rugby League. Its only Rugby League that displays an abject failure time and again.

This is spot on - other sports who play more games also fit in internationals. It is perfectly possible to do, a few different ways of doing it, with clear evidence. 

[Chris22]

Would France hosting the whole tournament be a risk? Yes. An enormous one. An expensive, loss-making flop cannot be ruled out.  I wonder if France as a co-host would be a safer step?

But, arguably, the riskier option may be to do the same as we have always done. Sometimes you must be brave enough to take a leap of faith.

We do need quite advanced planning though. In 2009, Japan were confirmed as hosts of the 2019 Rugby Union World Cup. At that time, Japan has not won a single World Cup match since 1991 (a record that remained until the 2015 tournament).

Since then, Japan have defeated South Africa, Italy, Ireland and Scotland, all of whom are considered 'Tier 1' nations. They went on to host an incredibly successful and profitable World Cup, with a substantial economic boost to the country as a whole.

A World Cup in France is viable, but not standalone. It must be part of a wider growth strategy.

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Would France hosting the whole tournament be a risk? Yes. An enormous one. An expensive, loss-making flop cannot be ruled out.  I wonder if France as a co-host would be a safer step?

But, arguably, the riskier option may be to do the same as we have always done. Sometimes you must be brave enough to take a leap of faith.

We do need quite advanced planning though. In 2009, Japan were confirmed as hosts of the 2019 Rugby Union World Cup. At that time, Japan has not won a single World Cup match since 1991 (a record that remained until the 2015 tournament).

Since then, Japan have defeated South Africa, Italy, Ireland and Scotland, all of whom are considered 'Tier 1' nations. They went on to host an incredibly successful and profitable World Cup, with a substantial economic boost to the country as a whole.

A World Cup in France is viable, but not standalone. It must be part of a wider growth strategy.

They won those games on the back of bringing loads of NZ players to Japan to gain residency status 

[Harry Stottle]

11 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

They won those games on the back of bringing loads of NZ players to Japan to gain residency status 

What! are 6' 6" 18 stone White Caucasians not common in Japan, well I never.

[dhw]

On 31/03/2021 at 21:52, GUBRATS said:

They won those games on the back of bringing loads of NZ players to Japan to gain residency status 

Are you sure about this?

[Sports Prophet]

On 30/03/2021 at 17:54, bird said:

Give the French a breather. They already have the Union World Cup in 2023 and the Olympics in 2024.

I agree, 2029 for France. 2025 in NZ with some Aus.