Dunbar Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 18 minutes ago, Damien said: I absolutely accept your point but this goes back to a point I made earlier. In the modern game 80 minute players aren't the be all and end all. I don't think its desirable to be having Whitehead and Bateman both playing 80 mins against players with the likes of Murdoch-Masila, Tevita Pangai Jnr, Taumalolo or Asofa-Solomona, Ah Mau, Bromwich, Proctor, Harawira-Naera rotating and playing fresh for 40 odd minutes each. Taumalolo can easily play 80 minutes for example but is often rested to benefit the team as whole. Bateman and Whitehead being workhorses and playing 80 minutes didn't work on the GB tour and in the 2017 World Cup we obviously had Sam Burgess paired with Whitehead who provided much more size and power. Someone like Mike McMeeken, as mentioned above by MrPosh, may provide that size and difference. Its a good debate and ultimately England may not have a great deal of choice. I just think the premise of Bateman and Whitehead being selected as starting 2nd rows because they are 80 minute players is flawed and not the right strategy considering the opposition. They'd certainly be in the 17 but I'd be using them rather differently than many on here seem to want. Couple of points. Firstly, I wouldn't play Bateman and Whitehead simply because they can play 80 minutes. I would select them because they are the best two players available in their respective positions. I like Ben Currie too and I think he is in with a shout for an edge spot. Secondly, we really need to separate the discussion between the edge and middle forwards. The likes of Taumalolo or Asofa-Solomona are middle forwards and they may not play 80 minutes but neither will the likes of Tom Burgess and Alex Walmsley in the England team. Many of the world's best edge forwards are capable of being effective for 80 minutes (or very close)... the likes of Angus Crichton, Felise Kaufusi, Tyson Frizell, Boyd Cordner, David Fifita et al will all provide an 80 minute contribution and always high quality; spelling an edge forward is the exception not the norm. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exiled Wiganer Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 It may have been mentioned and I have missed it, but Bateman has an intangible “leave nothing out there” quality that is very rare indeed in any sport. That separates him from all of the other possible back rowers. As someone mentioned above, we should beware the “oh he plays in the NRL so has become superman” because we have been down that road and it leads nowhere. I like Bateman, Knowles and Currie as a combination in part because the opposition will spend no time thinking about any SL player on the basis that they assume they are all rubbish, and the last 2 offer athleticism and strong defence. I don’t think Whitehead massively weakens us, and indeed he has shown up well in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Couple of points. Firstly, I wouldn't play Bateman and Whitehead simply because they can play 80 minutes. I would select them because they are the best two players available in their respective positions. I like Ben Currie too and I think he is in with a shout for an edge spot. Secondly, we really need to separate the discussion between the edge and middle forwards. The likes of Taumalolo or Asofa-Solomona are middle forwards and they may not play 80 minutes but neither will the likes of Tom Burgess and Alex Walmsley in the England team. Many of the world's best edge forwards are capable of being effective for 80 minutes (or very close)... the likes of Angus Crichton, Felise Kaufusi, Tyson Frizell, Boyd Cordner, David Fifita et al will all provide an 80 minute contribution and always high quality; spelling an edge forward is the exception not the norm. The players I named all regularly play back row for their countries, or come on from the bench and are regularly interchanged. I am comparing like for like and what England will be facing. I've never seen Tom Burgess or Alex Walmsley play Loose Forward or 2nd row but may have missed it. I don't think they'd do much of a job there either. Looking at NRL.com I'd say that Cordner is very much an exception and is a great player that I rate highly. Frizzell often plays for Australia off the bench. Kaufusi was used as an interchange prop for Tonga. Andrew Fifita certainly gets interchanged for Tonga and has been played from the bench or used at prop. I don't think at international level there is the clear distinction between edge and middle, many players are interchangeable and do change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted April 7, 2021 Share Posted April 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said: It's not a question of anybody putting anybody on top if any pile. You are going out of your way to put people at the bottom. It's a pretty poor chip you have on your shoulder. Don't be soft, I merely suggest that he has to prove in the WC that he is worthy of the status that some people including yourself believe he has already earned, I have never once decryed that he has a proven abillity, if he proves it in the best of company that will do for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Prendle Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 On 07/04/2021 at 09:49, Harry Stottle said: I'm not writing him off Jim, I fully expect that he will be selected but as someone eluded to earlier not everyone who is good at domestic football - be it here or in Aus - transfer their skills with as much success to the International stage, the best example of that I can give is Kevin Sinfield, superb and such an influence domestically, very little impact and sway whatsoever internationally especially against the teams that matter. OK, JB played all the '17 WC at centre which would be unfair to judge him by if he as expected is to take up a pack position, but please point out to me where he has been as much an influential figure in other Internationals as he has been domestically in recent years at both Wigan and Canberra. I don't know if I have any advantage over yourself, but I always believe that you see far more of what is happening on the field of play by actually being there other than watching it on TV, I went on the '19 GB tour and not once did I come of the ground saying that JB was a dominant force, like Damien eludes to when he is measuring JB against big packs who just keep rolling on with big and refreshed replacements which was what happened against Tonga , NZ x2 and PNG. Whoever is selected by Mr Wane I want them to do well, but my own personal jury is still out on JB in the International Arena, I would love him to show that he has not many peers come the WC, in which he will have the opportunity to enhance the standing being bestowed on him that he is one of the best forwards on the planet. So I'm not making anything up Jim, in my opinion it is up to JB to rubber stamp his already awarded lofty reputation, if you consider that he has already done that and you are in expectation that he only has to take the field then that is your prerogative. Wow, I can’t believe you would use this thread to tell us, yet again, that you went on the 2019 GB Tour, but to then use that as a mechanism to claim you know better than others is astonishing. I think it’s time to pop you on ignore until your ego has had time to shrink to a more normal level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Jim Prendle said: Wow, I can’t believe you would use this thread to tell us, yet again, that you went on the 2019 GB Tour, but to then use that as a mechanism to claim you know better than others is astonishing. I think it’s time to pop you on ignore until your ego has had time to shrink to a more normal level. If I am on your personal ignore then you will not read this, but if not I was just using my expierience to highlight a point in question. Considering you do not have anything constructive to say and point out how I was wrong with what I described, I take it that you must be in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Prendle Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 11 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: If I am on your personal ignore then you will not read this, but if not I was just using my expierience to highlight a point in question. Considering you do not have anything constructive to say and point out how I was wrong with what I described, I take it that you must be in agreement. I’ve made my thoughts on this pretty clear. If you can’t be bothered reading them, not my problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 On 07/04/2021 at 13:49, Damien said: It seems selective stats are only valid with some when it suits though. A sentence that cuts both ways very sharply. Looking at the opinions on TRL, most opinions are somewhere in the rational middle. Then most of the noisy acrimony comes from people with colossal chips on their shoulders that reveal far more about themselves and their club allegiances/hatreds than anything about Rugby League itself. Business as usual, then. Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graveyard johnny Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 not much to report on sutton from the panthers game- all the english players apart from whitehead totally outplayed and outclassed by the opposition see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost crayfish Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 53 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said: not much to report on sutton from the panthers game- all the english players apart from whitehead totally outplayed and outclassed by the opposition I didn't see the game but caught some post game coverage. I was interested to hear the commentators finally talking about what many of us have been saying for a long time - Josh Hodgson takes too much time away from his halves. In a big change from the constant praise they have given Hodgson over the years, they even pointed out that Canberra looked better last year when Hodgson was injured and their replacement hooker gave quick, early ball to Williams. It's a very valid point. Hodgson's constant probing around the rucks tends to get him plenty of try assists against poor teams, but it just ruins their attack against strong defence. This is why he never does anything at test level, and England/GB always look better when he's off the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graveyard johnny Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 1 hour ago, ghost crayfish said: I didn't see the game but caught some post game coverage. I was interested to hear the commentators finally talking about what many of us have been saying for a long time - Josh Hodgson takes too much time away from his halves. In a big change from the constant praise they have given Hodgson over the years, they even pointed out that Canberra looked better last year when Hodgson was injured and their replacement hooker gave quick, early ball to Williams. It's a very valid point. Hodgson's constant probing around the rucks tends to get him plenty of try assists against poor teams, but it just ruins their attack against strong defence. This is why he never does anything at test level, and England/GB always look better when he's off the field. more or less spot on see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 2 hours ago, ghost crayfish said: I didn't see the game but caught some post game coverage. I was interested to hear the commentators finally talking about what many of us have been saying for a long time - Josh Hodgson takes too much time away from his halves. In a big change from the constant praise they have given Hodgson over the years, they even pointed out that Canberra looked better last year when Hodgson was injured and their replacement hooker gave quick, early ball to Williams. It's a very valid point. Hodgson's constant probing around the rucks tends to get him plenty of try assists against poor teams, but it just ruins their attack against strong defence. This is why he never does anything at test level, and England/GB always look better when he's off the field. Not Hodgson’s biggest fan but I thought he did ok,Sutton got through a mountain of work and Williams looked good until the CNK injury,forced a reshuffle.and the Panthers got on one of their rolls which can be unstoppable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graveyard johnny Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 26 minutes ago, Davo5 said: Not Hodgson’s biggest fan but I thought he did ok,Sutton got through a mountain of work and Williams looked good until the CNK injury,forced a reshuffle.and the Panthers got on one of their rolls which can be unstoppable. panthers didn't have their 1st choice fb either- chrichton looked very dodgy in that role see you later undertaker - in a while necrophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Robertson Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 On 04/04/2021 at 19:55, ELBOWSEYE said: 100 posts are the number required to go on all forums its a troll thing and your angles of posting are ones trolls use, maybe wrong but usually if it quacks its a duck. I just noticed that I have over 100 posts. And, still, rugby league is the only sport that I'm posting about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Alan Robertson said: I just noticed that I have over 100 posts. And, still, rugby league is the only sport that I'm posting about My god you are looking back, April post its like looking at things i posted in a different life. Well done keep posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Robertson Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 1 hour ago, ELBOWSEYE said: My god you are looking back, April post its like looking at things i posted in a different life. Well done keep posting. I'd not thought about your comment for a couple of months and then I happened to remember that you had accused me of being a troll (or, at least, a soon-to-be-troll). I told you, at the time, that you had it wrong but you were convinced. If disagreeing with you is trolling then 'so be it' but I'm only here to talk about rugby league - as I'll be able to continue to prove over the next few hundred posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELBOWSEYE Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 43 minutes ago, Alan Robertson said: I'd not thought about your comment for a couple of months and then I happened to remember that you had accused me of being a troll (or, at least, a soon-to-be-troll). I told you, at the time, that you had it wrong but you were convinced. If disagreeing with you is trolling then 'so be it' but I'm only here to talk about rugby league - as I'll be able to continue to prove over the next few hundred posts. As I posted well done and keep posting. We all love the sport and disagree with each other when talking about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Robertson Posted June 19, 2021 Share Posted June 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said: As I posted well done and keep posting. We all love the sport and disagree with each other when talking about it Fair play, it would be boring if it was any other way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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