Whose season is already over?

[Tommygilf]

Ok I know the title of the thread is a bit dire, but hear me out.

I was listening to the most recent YEP RL podcast and the Journo who is a Wakefield fan, Richard Byram, made a comment that struck me: "in terms of silverware, that's Wakefield's season over" following the defeat in their first cup game. Maybe its the specific journos ability to sound like Eeyore, but it did strike me that some clubs/fans are at that stage after only 3 games. It also was in contrast to my own team, who were also knocked out, but has left me feeling nowhere near as desolate about the rest of the season.

Is he right? And could the same be said for any other clubs? And perhaps most pertinently, is it a problem and if so how can it be solved?

[Tommygilf]

This is a link to the specific podcast referred to.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

is it a problem and if so how can it be solved?

I'm not sure how you solve it in the short term. But the space you want to get to is where fans are turning up because they like the experience and because each game has the potential to be the one they'd kick themselves for missing.

Basically, and good luck with this, you want to create a situation where instead of saying the third match in a three-match Test series that is already 2-0 is a 'dead rubber', the natural instinct for the rugby league supporter is to be excited at the prospect of the defeated side turning up and playing with pride.

[davet]

.

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ok I know the title of the thread is a bit dire, but hear me out.

I was listening to the most recent YEP RL podcast and the Journo who is a Wakefield fan, Richard Byram, made a comment that struck me: "in terms of silverware, that's Wakefield's season over" following the defeat in their first cup game. Maybe its the specific journos ability to sound like Eeyore, but it did strike me that some clubs/fans are at that stage after only 3 games. It also was in contrast to my own team, who were also knocked out, but has left me feeling nowhere near as desolate about the rest of the season.

Is he right? And could the same be said for any other clubs? And perhaps most pertinently, is it a problem and if so how can it be solved?

In terms of silverware , I'd suggest yes , as for season ' over ' ? , Probably not until they've played us ( Leigh ) , if they stick a load past us then yes , that will be this year over for them , and us as well most likely 

[Man of Kent]

Wakey need to make sure they stay up!

[The Frying Scotsman]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

Is he right? And could the same be said for any other clubs? And perhaps most pertinently, is it a problem and if so how can it be solved?

He is right.

He shouldn't be, as the playoff system means any team can theoretically have a chance of staying in the fight until the end of the season.

However with clubs like Wakefield, who have zero ambition, and the knowledge that somebody like Leigh are in the League with a Championship level squad, the season is effectively over, as they probably don't even really have a relegation dogfight to maintain interest.

For the vast majority of teams though, the playoffs offers that outside chance of progress through to the knockout stages at which point anything can happen.  

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Wakey need to make sure they stay up!

See above 

[Hela Wigmen]

Survival is Wakefield’s metaphorical silverware this year, so their season definitely isn’t over.

Is Leeds’ season over? They’re out of the cup, probably their best chance of silverware this year, and have a load of injuries, with games against Wigan, Huddersfield, Cas and Hull coming up in their next six games. They all offer the possibility of tough games, which, if they’re tight games and still missing players, could see games go against them. At present, they’re one of a few clubs whose seasons may be over soon. 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, The Frying Scotsman said:

He is right.

He shouldn't be, as the playoff system means any team can theoretically have a chance of staying in the fight until the end of the season.

However with clubs like Wakefield, who have zero ambition, and the knowledge that somebody like Leigh are in the League with a Championship level squad, the season is effectively over, as they probably don't even really have a relegation dogfight to maintain interest.

For the vast majority of teams though, the playoffs offers that outside chance of progress through to the knockout stages at which point anything can happen.  

Anything ? , No , Saints will beat Wigan in the GF 

[dboy]

The premise of the question is nonsense.

In reality there are probably 3 teams who could realistically win the GF. If any of the other 9 are already out of the CC, is their season over too??

"Might as well alllll go home!"

[Barley Mow]

35 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Ok I know the title of the thread is a bit dire, but hear me out.

I was listening to the most recent YEP RL podcast and the Journo who is a Wakefield fan, Richard Byram, made a comment that struck me: "in terms of silverware, that's Wakefield's season over" following the defeat in their first cup game. Maybe its the specific journos ability to sound like Eeyore, but it did strike me that some clubs/fans are at that stage after only 3 games. It also was in contrast to my own team, who were also knocked out, but has left me feeling nowhere near as desolate about the rest of the season.

Is he right? And could the same be said for any other clubs? And perhaps most pertinently, is it a problem and if so how can it be solved?

In terms of silverware, it does make it very unlikely that Wakefield will win anything, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have found short odds anywhere of them winning the cup.

That doesn't mean their season is over in terms of having something to play for though - We have the play-offs and relegation so that teams do still have something to play for, for as much of the season as possible. Almost all clubs will most likely either be in the play-offs, be capable of making them or of being relegated when we get to within a couple of weeks of the end of the season.

So in terms of silverware, Wakefield are unlikely to compete (how many realistically expected them to be seriously competing for silverware before the season started?) but that doesn't mean they can't have a successful season by their standards and entertain along the way.

[Chris Taylor]

All teams, as we know it's Warrington's year. 

[Tommygilf]

34 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'm not sure how you solve it in the short term. But the space you want to get to is where fans are turning up because they like the experience and because each game has the potential to be the one they'd kick themselves for missing.

Basically, and good luck with this, you want to create a situation where instead of saying the third match in a three-match Test series that is already 2-0 is a 'dead rubber', the natural instinct for the rugby league supporter is to be excited at the prospect of the defeated side turning up and playing with pride.

I totally agree that would be ideal, but is that the Belle Vue experience?

[Tommygilf]

31 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

In terms of silverware , I'd suggest yes , as for season ' over ' ? , Probably not until they've played us ( Leigh ) , if they stick a load past us then yes , that will be this year over for them , and us as well most likely 

I'd agree with that assessment. 

[Tommygilf]

28 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

He is right.

He shouldn't be, as the playoff system means any team can theoretically have a chance of staying in the fight until the end of the season.

However with clubs like Wakefield, who have zero ambition, and the knowledge that somebody like Leigh are in the League with a Championship level squad, the season is effectively over, as they probably don't even really have a relegation dogfight to maintain interest.

For the vast majority of teams though, the playoffs offers that outside chance of progress through to the knockout stages at which point anything can happen.  

I agree, but in a 12 team league to have a quarter of the competition out of the cup and with a self confessed no hope in the league after literally 3 weekends...

[Saint Toppy]

Its not over for anyone just yet, its just that each have different battles to concentrate on.

Clubs like Wakey, Leigh & HKR their main focus will be on avoiding relegation rather than silverware, where as clubs like Saints, Wigan, Warrington will be more focused on trophies as there's a pretty slim chance of them getting relegated. 

However as we get further into the season it will be become apparent that there will be some clubs who wont make the play-off's but also probably wont get relegated, so there's a case to argue that their 2021 season is over and they should start preparing for 2022.

[Tommygilf]

30 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Survival is Wakefield’s metaphorical silverware this year, so their season definitely isn’t over.

Is Leeds’ season over? They’re out of the cup, probably their best chance of silverware this year, and have a load of injuries, with games against Wigan, Huddersfield, Cas and Hull coming up in their next six games. They all offer the possibility of tough games, which, if they’re tight games and still missing players, could see games go against them. At present, they’re one of a few clubs whose seasons may be over soon. 

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that assessment of Leeds. Though with the hope of injured players returning like new signings in the upcoming months, a late surge to the playoffs, and that a 40 minute 12 man Leeds nearly turned over the all conquering St Helens means I'm nothing like as downbeat about our prospects as Mr Byram is about the Trin.

As for Wakefield, their season is effectively going to be decided by how badly Leigh do. If they go like London, they'll be in trouble, if they don't, then Wakefield haven't got to concern themselves with relegation. 

[Rioman]

50 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

He is right.

He shouldn't be, as the playoff system means any team can theoretically have a chance of staying in the fight until the end of the season.

However with clubs like Wakefield, who have zero ambition, and the knowledge that somebody like Leigh are in the League with a Championship level squad, the season is effectively over, as they probably don't even really have a relegation dogfight to maintain interest.

For the vast majority of teams though, the playoffs offers that outside chance of progress through to the knockout stages at which point anything can happen.  

I don't believe Wakefield Trinity lack ambition. Their problem, like others, is the finances to realise their ambitions.

[Oxford]

Whose season is already over?

If I was allowed I'd probably say ..... Keith Starmer's looks pretty much finished.

Among the clubs far too early to predict though that won't stop some.

[Dunbar]

This is an interesting thread and does raise the question of the sport's phycology - among the fans, the players and the clubs.

Take two leagues in two different systems, the NRL and Super League.

The latter has the play off's and Grand Final, the potential for relegation and all the clubs have a chance at the Challenge Cup which, while diminishing a little over the last few years, is still a prestigious comp to win.

The NRL on the other hand has no cup competition and no threat of relegation.

And yet it is the NRL which has more intensity on a week by week basis.  Even when teams are out of play off contention the players and teams go for a win every week and it usually pretty competitive from top to bottom (this year is a bit of an anomaly).  What you wouldn't tend to see is teams at the top of the league tactically fielding weakened teams for example.

I think this says a lot about the attitude of sport.  Over here, there is a perception that a game is only worth winning because it will count towards winning a competition while in Australia a game seems to be worth winning because you try to win every game.

Is it because of the higher profile of the game over there and the increased media coverage on a game by game basis?  I would hope not as I would hope that everyone wants to win every game as a matter of pride in the club and their performance.

[Southerner]

London Broncos. 

[Chris22]

I don't think we should want to 'solve' it. Previous attempts at that led to systems like the top 8, where bottom half clubs made the play offs. We shouldn't have a race to the bottom. If a team isn't good enough to compete for silverware, we shouldn't put the bar so low to create artificial competition.

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

I don't think we should want to 'solve' it. Previous attempts at that led to systems like the top 8, where bottom half clubs made the play offs. We shouldn't have a race to the bottom. If a team isn't good enough to compete for silverware, we shouldn't put the bar so low to create artificial competition.

This. A thousand times, this. 

[Markos]

57 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

This is an interesting thread and does raise the question of the sport's phycology - among the fans, the players and the clubs.

Take two leagues in two different systems, the NRL and Super League.

The former has the play off's and Grand Final, the potential for relegation and all the clubs have a chance at the Challenge Cup which, while diminishing a little over the last few years, is still a prestigious comp to win.

The NRL on the other hand has no cup competition and no threat of relegation.

And yet it is the NRL which has more intensity on a week by week basis.  Even when teams are out of play off contention the players and teams go for a win every week and it usually pretty competitive from top to bottom (this year is a bit of an anomaly).  What you wouldn't tend to see is teams at the top of the league tactically fielding weakened teams for example.

I think this says a lot about the attitude of sport.  Over here, there is a perception that a game is only worth winning because it will count towards winning a competition while in Australia a game seems to be worth winning because you try to win every game.

Is it because of the higher profile of the game over there and the increased media coverage on a game by game basis?  I would hope not as I would hope that everyone wants to win every game as a matter of pride in the club and their performance.

The NRL comparison is an interesting one.

Is it about the Australian psychology, probably, or generally the profile of the sport, again probably part of it.

I do wonder though if a small part of it is to do with the lack of relegation, making the league more competitive, both top to bottom and start of season to end, with owners more likely to invest and clubs, knowing they have it all to go for again the next season, scrapping for league positions to make them appear more appealing to prospective recruits etc.

Having said that, without the two points made at the start, this concept alone wouldn’t make much difference