Whose season is already over?

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, Markos said:

The NRL comparison is an interesting one.

Is it about the Australian psychology, probably, or generally the profile of the sport, again probably part of it.

I do wonder though if a small part of it is to do with the lack of relegation, making the league more competitive, both top to bottom and start of season to end, with owners more likely to invest and clubs, knowing they have it all to go for again the next season, scrapping for league positions to make them appear more appealing to prospective recruits etc.

Having said that, without the two points made at the start, this concept alone wouldn’t make much difference 

It's also an attitude that prevails in US sports as well. A 'winning season' is when a team wins more than they lose yet here we say a club's season is over after 3 games when they can't win a trophy. 

Maybe it is because, like the NRL, there is only one trophy on offer while here in RL and other sports there is relegation, cups etc. It means a team over there has to measure their success differently. 

I have to say I am not a fan of professional sports teams (or any teams for that matter) needing a reason to win. They should want to win every game; and the fans should as well which I think we do.

[The Frying Scotsman]

4 hours ago, Rioman said:

I don't believe Wakefield Trinity lack ambition. Their problem, like others, is the finances to realise their ambitions.

Fair enough.

What ambitions have they shown in recent years?

[The Frying Scotsman]

5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Anything ? , No , Saints will beat Wigan in the GF 

I did use the word "theoretically" anything... A bit further up. 

I kind of meant you can see the likes of Salford sneaking into playoffs and then having a chance to get to a final etc.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

5 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

 

Is Leeds’ season over? They’re out of the cup, probably their best chance of silverware this year, and have a load of injuries, with games against Wigan, Huddersfield, Cas and Hull coming up in their next six games. They all offer the possibility of tough games, which, if they’re tight games and still missing players, could see games go against them. At present, they’re one of a few clubs whose seasons may be over soon. 

Alternatively they nearly did over Saints at the weekend with 12 men and a second rower at 7

I'd say reports of the death of Leed's season have been greatly excagerrated  

[Wholly Trinity]

3 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Fair enough.

What ambitions have they shown in recent years?

I think you're confusing ambition with success. 

How do you define ambition?

[Hela Wigmen]

6 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Alternatively they nearly did over Saints at the weekend with 12 men and a second rower at 7

I'd say reports of the death of Leed's season have been greatly excagerrated  

A Saints side that played with 15 for approximately 65 minutes. Leeds have since lost another player from that side for four matches. 

[gingerjon]

10 hours ago, Chris22 said:

I don't think we should want to 'solve' it. Previous attempts at that led to systems like the top 8, where bottom half clubs made the play offs. We shouldn't have a race to the bottom. If a team isn't good enough to compete for silverware, we shouldn't put the bar so low to create artificial competition.

Agree with this - there's no point in artificial jeopardy.

But there is a wider overall issue, and whilst I know other sports have it to an extent it's more pronounced in rugby league, where there is a belief that if a game doesn't have an immediate and obvious 'point' that it becomes worthless.

[Tommygilf]

10 hours ago, Chris22 said:

I don't think we should want to 'solve' it. Previous attempts at that led to systems like the top 8, where bottom half clubs made the play offs. We shouldn't have a race to the bottom. If a team isn't good enough to compete for silverware, we shouldn't put the bar so low to create artificial competition.

I can see that 8 team playoffs were a bit pointless. Perhaps a reformat of the cup could help extend the length of time teams have something to play for?

[Tommygilf]

14 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

In terms of silverware, it does make it very unlikely that Wakefield will win anything, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have found short odds anywhere of them winning the cup.

That doesn't mean their season is over in terms of having something to play for though - We have the play-offs and relegation so that teams do still have something to play for, for as much of the season as possible. Almost all clubs will most likely either be in the play-offs, be capable of making them or of being relegated when we get to within a couple of weeks of the end of the season.

So in terms of silverware, Wakefield are unlikely to compete (how many realistically expected them to be seriously competing for silverware before the season started?) but that doesn't mean they can't have a successful season by their standards and entertain along the way.

I don't disagree, I was just conveying the point made by the journalist - who as I pointed out does have a tendency to sound like Eeyore. 

What you say above is obviously true, but for it to be "over" for some fans in terms of silverware for Wakefield, arguably also KR, after just 240 minutes (or a bit more in Rovers' case), isn't good for anyone I don't think. 

For Leigh I can see why the League campaign is obviously more important and would present a huge achievement just in staying up.

[Tommygilf]

10 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It's also an attitude that prevails in US sports as well. A 'winning season' is when a team wins more than they lose yet here we say a club's season is over after 3 games when they can't win a trophy. 

Maybe it is because, like the NRL, there is only one trophy on offer while here in RL and other sports there is relegation, cups etc. It means a team over there has to measure their success differently. 

I have to say I am not a fan of professional sports teams (or any teams for that matter) needing a reason to win. They should want to win every game; and the fans should as well which I think we do.

Tbh I think the "US definition" of a winning season is applicable here too, as quite obviously clubs at the lower end of the table will lose more than they win. A cup is often a break from a monotonous league season in UK sports

[Rioman]

11 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Fair enough.

What ambitions have they shown in recent years?

The definition of Ambition is: "A strong desire to do or achieve something."   I'm sure every player at Wakefield ( and every other club)  has that desire to achieve, as has Michael Carter and John Minards and the rest of the staff.. But sometimes we don't always get what we desire, and sadly in Rugby League, as in many sports, finance dictates whether that ambition is realised.

As a supporter of Wakefield Trinity for over forty five years I've seen what I believe to be poor management and poor financial management but to include the current regime who've been 'in power' for around seven years (is that recent enough?) and say they lack ambition is unfair.  Speak to Messrs Carter and Minards and  then judge if they lack ambition.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

5 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

A Saints side that played with 15 for approximately 65 minutes. Leeds have since lost another player from that side for four matches

They still had 13 on the pitch to Leeds 12. Though Prior and Leeming were worth 1.5 each that game so...

Leeds have a chance of knocking off the predicted Saints procession this year in my view. 

[Rupert Prince]

19 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Ok I know the title of the thread is a bit dire, but hear me out.

I was listening to the most recent YEP RL podcast and the Journo who is a Wakefield fan, Richard Byram, made a comment that struck me: "in terms of silverware, that's Wakefield's season over" following the defeat in their first cup game. Maybe its the specific journos ability to sound like Eeyore, but it did strike me that some clubs/fans are at that stage after only 3 games. It also was in contrast to my own team, who were also knocked out, but has left me feeling nowhere near as desolate about the rest of the season.

Is he right? And could the same be said for any other clubs? And perhaps most pertinently, is it a problem and if so how can it be solved?

I think it was a silly question.  There are only 2 competitions, and the cup only really has a few rounds for SL clubs and only rarely can the top teams knock each other out to give space for a lower team.

I more serious question is how much longer can the cup go on in its current form ( or ever?) ?

[Tommygilf]

26 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

I think it was a silly question.  There are only 2 competitions, and the cup only really has a few rounds for SL clubs and only rarely can the top teams knock each other out to give space for a lower team.

I more serious question is how much longer can the cup go on in its current form ( or ever?) ?

I do think that is a pertinent point about the cup. That is bound up in the initial point raised.

[The Frying Scotsman]

3 hours ago, Rioman said:

The definition of Ambition is: "A strong desire to do or achieve something."   I'm sure every player at Wakefield ( and every other club)  has that desire to achieve, as has Michael Carter and John Minards and the rest of the staff.. But sometimes we don't always get what we desire, and sadly in Rugby League, as in many sports, finance dictates whether that ambition is realised.

As a supporter of Wakefield Trinity for over forty five years I've seen what I believe to be poor management and poor financial management but to include the current regime who've been 'in power' for around seven years (is that recent enough?) and say they lack ambition is unfair.  Speak to Messrs Carter and Minards and  then judge if they lack ambition.

No need to quote a dictionary. And I think we all know players want to win games. I just asked what ambition the club has shown?

What is it that Wakefield have done though (in these recent years) to show that they have the ambition to be anything other than the sort of mediocre makeweight teams we see propping up Super League? 

Facilities?

Infrastructure?

Academy?

Coaching? 

What?

Just give me something concrete, instead of a load of waffle about players' desire.

[Hela Wigmen]

3 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

They still had 13 on the pitch to Leeds 12. Though Prior and Leeming were worth 1.5 each that game so...

Leeds have a chance of knocking off the predicted Saints procession this year in my view. 

They had 12 men for 35 minutes, by which point we’d been down to 16 and then 15 for the best part of 25-30 minutes. While Leeds were spirited, I think some context is needed, which has also been needed from Saints fans who complained we weren’t very good. 

I think it’s far too early to make that assumption. I’d have feared Leeds after two rounds in a cup game had they had a full squad, however, their next 6 games are quite possibly going to shape their season. As I’ve said, their fixtures include Hull, Huddersfield, Cas and Wigan, which, with their injuries, could be very tough games and could end their season pretty early on. 

[PREPOSTEROUS]

1 hour ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

No need to quote a dictionary. And I think we all know players want to win games. I just asked what ambition the club has shown?

What is it that Wakefield have done though (in these recent years) to show that they have the ambition to be anything other than the sort of mediocre makeweight teams we see propping up Super League? 

Facilities?

Infrastructure?

Academy?

Coaching? 

What?

Just give me something concrete, instead of a load of waffle about players' desire.

Facilties 

A new stand in the offing improving facilities.

Coaching

Two new assistants and strength and conditioning to improve on the coaching set up.

Academy

Producing a good chunk of talent that will hopefully become the main stays of the squad.

Infrastructure, by this, do you mean back room staff, community foundations?

 

[The Frying Scotsman]

40 minutes ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

Facilties 

A new stand in the offing improving facilities.

Coaching

Two new assistants and strength and conditioning to improve on the coaching set up.

Academy

Producing a good chunk of talent that will hopefully become the main stays of the squad.

Infrastructure, by this, do you mean back room staff, community foundations?

 

I didn't mean anything specifically. @Rioman just said that Wakefield are ambitious because " their players want to win games"

So I just asked him for some real examples of where they are showing ambition to be anything other than SuperLeague makeweights, picking up the TV money and showing no signs of wanting to improve on their current predicament. I have been following SuperLeague since it started, and they are consistently round about 3rd last every year it seems. 

What does "in the offing" mean regarding a stand? Being constructed? Or being talked about in a local paper?

[PREPOSTEROUS]

52 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I didn't mean anything specifically. @Rioman just said that Wakefield are ambitious because " their players want to win games"

So I just asked him for some real examples of where they are showing ambition to be anything other than SuperLeague makeweights, picking up the TV money and showing no signs of wanting to improve on their current predicament. I have been following SuperLeague since it started, and they are consistently round about 3rd last every year it seems. 

What does "in the offing" mean regarding a stand? Being constructed? Or being talked about in a local paper?

If you're that bothered then do your own research on it. Shouldn't be too hard to find. 

[Mr Plow]

On 14/04/2021 at 16:42, Hela Wigmen said:

Survival is Wakefield’s metaphorical silverware this year, so their season definitely isn’t over.

Wakefield will forever be too good to go down and not good enough to win anything and they’re happy there. There’s a good argument there for scrapping relegation, you really want 12 teams that could win SL

[The Frying Scotsman]

1 hour ago, Mr Plow said:

Wakefield will forever be too good to go down and not good enough to win anything and they’re happy there. There’s a good argument there for scrapping relegation, you really want 12 teams that could win SL

Exactly. That was my point earlier: zero ambition.

[DC77]

22 hours ago, Dunbar said:

It's also an attitude that prevails in US sports as well. A 'winning season' is when a team wins more than they lose yet here we say a club's season is over after 3 games when they can't win a trophy. 

Maybe it is because, like the NRL, there is only one trophy on offer while here in RL and other sports there is relegation, cups etc. It means a team over there has to measure their success differently. 

I have to say I am not a fan of professional sports teams (or any teams for that matter) needing a reason to win. They should want to win every game; and the fans should as well which I think we do.

Disagree with regard to US sports. They reward teams that do badly. The worse you do the more you get rewarded. It’s a socialist, manufactured sports system engineered to create an even competition (even though that doesn’t effectively work as there are dynasties/teams that win multiple trophies).

Can’t speak about Australia as I’m not familiar with their sporting landscape.

In terms of a team with ‘nothing to play for’ vs a team with everything to play for (title, playoff place, promotion, avoid relegation), the latter will always have more hunger. That’s universal. Having something tangible to fight for trumps ‘just wanting to win’. You have an extra level of motivation when there is something on the line. You cannot manufacture the same level of hunger.

Taking hunger outside a sporting context, when a child is in danger a parent finds an extra level of strength they didn’t know they had. Documented cases of people lifting objects to save someone they otherwise would never be able to. Saving a team from relegation you’ll see players run the extra yard, players who were previously regraded as “lazy” making last ditch tackles. 

[GUBRATS]

26 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

Exactly. That was my point earlier: zero ambition.

So tell us what you want them to do ? 

[Wholly Trinity]

3 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I didn't mean anything specifically. @Rioman just said that Wakefield are ambitious because " their players want to win games"

So I just asked him for some real examples of where they are showing ambition to be anything other than SuperLeague makeweights, picking up the TV money and showing no signs of wanting to improve on their current predicament. I have been following SuperLeague since it started, and they are consistently round about 3rd last every year it seems. 

What does "in the offing" mean regarding a stand? Being constructed? Or being talked about in a local paper?

You seem to have made your mind up that Wakefield lack ambition, but you're still looking for proof of success or achievement as proof of desire. 

The idea that Trinity are happy to sit at the bottom of the table and take the sky money is a total myth, but seems to be accepted as truth by some on this board. Where is there any benefit in doing that? I guess the directors must be just divying up all the left over cash at the end of the year.

and they are consistently round about 3rd last every year it seems. 

The operative phrase here being "it seems". The reality is that during the last 5 years of this coach/owner regime they have finished an average of 8th. 

Even using your method of measuring ambition by success that is an achievement for a club with lowest budget, starting from the brink of bankruptcy, selling off all their players and losing ownership of all assets.

That they got to that point is a combination of bad luck, complacency and terrible management since the 70s, but you can only play the hand you're dealt.

It's like comparing someone with inherited wealth running the family business with someone born in poverty starting their own business. Which one has the most ambition?

The other myth, of course, is that somehow it's Wakefield's fault that RL is not competing with soccer at the top of UK sport. They are a symptom of the lack of finance and prestige in the sport, not the cause. The story of Trinity is the story of the sport; under investment and missed opportunities.

The much-ridiculed serial attempts to move to better facilities is further evidence of ambition. However, the fact that none of these came off is somehow used as evidence of complacency and lack of ambition. 

The improvements made at the club since 2015 have been enormous, but if you don't look you won't see them.

In professional sport, cash is king. The goal to achieve long-term financial stability is a difficult one when you start with nothing and without a big money backer. Whether they achieve that goal is still in the balance, and the pressure is mounting. If they don't get there soon, they will be replaced. They have been bought time by the financial basket case that is Northern Hemisphere RL.

 

[dboy]

3 hours ago, Mr Plow said:

...you really want 12 teams that could win SL

So, how many clubs have indeed won SL??