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Putting Leigh in SL is the biggest mistake RL ever made (Merged threads)


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4 minutes ago, JT RL said:

Removing the loop fixtures should be core aim for the authorities because they fundamentally undermine the competion.

However, it difficult to justify 14 teams in terms of playing quality. Are there really enough players to populate more top grade teams ? The evidence would suggest that there is a competitive Top 8 and a competitive Next 8 [where an additional 2 teams could be added without completely compromising the divsion]

 

 

 

I think adding more clubs to SL at the moment just spreads the player pool more thinly. 

Clubs like Newcastle can hopefully be added in the future as they might have 25+ community clubs feeding into their youth system which opens up a new source of players and allows them to be competitive rather than just signing players and juniors from the same pot as everyone else

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I just want to understand the logic for putting Leigh in SL coz I still don't understand.  Toulouse has just signed a 9 year deal with Stade Toulousain that not just allows them to play at the ic

Toulouse will hopefully get promoted on the back of a winning season which also helps selling tickets and corporates for their first season in the big time. I have no problem with Leigh being promoted

If I were at Toulouse, I wouldn't have been too anxious to get a free ticket into $uperleague for 2021. Too many obstacles to international travel at the moment, too much uncertainty, too little

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22 minutes ago, paulwalker71 said:

I don't agree it's the biggest mistake that SL ever made

For the likes of Salford and Wakefield it's the best possible decision as it lets them avoid relegation for another season. 

It looks like Featherstone could well be next seasons cannon fodder, probably replaced by Leigh again in 2023...

Toulouse have won 26 of their last 33 Championship games yet people conveniently keep it local. There's no dual reg anymore propping up some also rans, Toulouse must be clear favourites.

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1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

I think adding more clubs to SL at the moment just spreads the player pool more thinly. 

Clubs like Newcastle can hopefully be added in the future as they might have 25+ community clubs feeding into their youth system which opens up a new source of players and allows them to be competitive rather than just signing players and juniors from the same pot as everyone else

Going to 14 is based on the new clubs that come in having the commercial firepower to attract enough money to bring in players. If that means pinching a few half backs from the other code then the player pool is there. 

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33 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Going to 14 is based on the new clubs that come in having the commercial firepower to attract enough money to bring in players. If that means pinching a few half backs from the other code then the player pool is there. 

The problem is that no matter how much money they have they'll still be signing existing players that already play in SL so it just spreads the quality more thinly. I think any extra clubs and also existing clubs need to be actively looking to expand the junior game which is why I mentioned Newcastle as they've got the North East to themselves

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3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Friday or Saturday night it would be at least 80% full,  mínimum. Thats over 15000 for a game of RL in France.  I think you might get a few from Carcassone who want to witness a bit of French RL history too. 

Why do they get less than 1,000 for a play off game vs Fev then? Serious question btw, I don’t know where these fans are coming from. 

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3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

The same place they emerge from when Wigan play Saints at home.  Not saying Toulouse are going to get that every game but I certainly think it becomes the game that Toulouse sports fans pencil in their diary every year. 

 

It’s the third ticket in town in Toulouse, at best. Wigan get 18,000 at home to Saints because they’re a few miles apart and it’s a century plus old rivalry between two of the three biggest clubs in the country. To assume TO v CD would do the same is just fantasy. 

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50 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Going to 14 is based on the new clubs that come in having the commercial firepower to attract enough money to bring in players. If that means pinching a few half backs from the other code then the player pool is there. 

The player pool simply isn’t there and the idea we can just “pinch players from the other code” really exacerbates this. 

Fourteen sounds like a good idea. In principal, it is. However, in reality, it’s far from that. Issues around the player pool, the quality of stadia, the development pathway, the commercial aspects around adding clubs, the funding available to clubs and TV negotiations are still there, they’re not going to be magically solved by placing two clubs in, whether those clubs are slightly more exotic than places you see only on signs on the M62 or whether they’re former pit towns whose halcyon days as rugby clubs were in the 70’s or 80’s. 

I don’t disagree that fourteen is a good number. However, with a plan that’s nothing more than “let’s just promote two teams and just carry on as normal” as was the case last time we went to fourteen (and in Rugby League fashion, would likely be the case again), it’s simply not going to work. I don’t want to draw too many comparisons to other sports or other leagues as they’re entirely different but it’s noticeable in both the NFL (and other leagues that have grown eg MLB, MLS etc) and the NRL, that while certain clubs or cities may well be good places for that respective league or sport, they can’t, and don’t, just drop these clubs into their competitions prematurely. “Brisbane 2” has been spoke about for a few years now, as has London in the NFL but neither have just been dropped into the NRL or NFL under-prepared (as Super League and Rugby League have done with nearly every ‘new’ team in the modern era). 

While extending Super League sounds good, I think it’s a long term project where the first objectives should be critiquing our own members rather than critiquing other clubs wanting to join the fold, “get your own house in order” as the old saying goes. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Why do they get less than 1,000 for a play off game vs Fev then? Serious question btw, I don’t know where these fans are coming from. 

Why do they get 6400 against Toronto then ? 

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19 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It’s the third ticket in town in Toulouse, at best. Wigan get 18,000 at home to Saints because they’re a few miles apart and it’s a century plus old rivalry between two of the three biggest clubs in the country. To assume TO v CD would do the same is just fantasy. 

You have seen the video on the previous page with 13k+ for a Catalans game in Toulouse from a few years ago? 

They used to play in a tiny stadium in the middle of nowhere. They have just signed a 10 year deal to play at the 19k Wallon stadium which is used by Stade Toulousain. They had planned a double header with Catalans last May at EW before Covid.

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37 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Toulouse got 6400 for a league game against Toronto in 2019 at EW

Ok, so why does that make anyone think they’d get 3x that for a game versus Catalans? The equivalent is like saying if Sheffield Eagles played Wigan or Leeds at Bramall Lane they’d get 19,000 there - they wouldn’t. 

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39 minutes ago, Scubby said:

You have seen the video on the previous page with 13k+ for a Catalans game in Toulouse from a few years ago? 

They used to play in a tiny stadium in the middle of nowhere. They have just signed a 10 year deal to play at the 19k Wallon stadium which is used by Stade Toulousain. They had planned a double header with Catalans last May at EW before Covid.

What sort of crowds were they getting at the Wallon for the few games they played there before Covid stopped play last season? 

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14 minutes ago, Eddie said:

What sort of crowds were they getting at the Wallon for the few games they played there before Covid stopped play last season? 

According to Wiki (which admittedly suggests the York game was at Blagnac which I don’t think was the case)

3,151 v York

2,318 v Oldham

Nothing listed for the game against Batley

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1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

The problem is that no matter how much money they have they'll still be signing existing players that already play in SL so it just spreads the quality more thinly. I think any extra clubs and also existing clubs need to be actively looking to expand the junior game which is why I mentioned Newcastle as they've got the North East to themselves

So my comment about players from the other code gets ignored then. 

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1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

The player pool simply isn’t there and the idea we can just “pinch players from the other code” really exacerbates this. 

Fourteen sounds like a good idea. In principal, it is. However, in reality, it’s far from that. Issues around the player pool, the quality of stadia, the development pathway, the commercial aspects around adding clubs, the funding available to clubs and TV negotiations are still there, they’re not going to be magically solved by placing two clubs in, whether those clubs are slightly more exotic than places you see only on signs on the M62 or whether they’re former pit towns whose halcyon days as rugby clubs were in the 70’s or 80’s. 

I don’t disagree that fourteen is a good number. However, with a plan that’s nothing more than “let’s just promote two teams and just carry on as normal” as was the case last time we went to fourteen (and in Rugby League fashion, would likely be the case again), it’s simply not going to work. I don’t want to draw too many comparisons to other sports or other leagues as they’re entirely different but it’s noticeable in both the NFL (and other leagues that have grown eg MLB, MLS etc) and the NRL, that while certain clubs or cities may well be good places for that respective league or sport, they can’t, and don’t, just drop these clubs into their competitions prematurely. “Brisbane 2” has been spoke about for a few years now, as has London in the NFL but neither have just been dropped into the NRL or NFL under-prepared (as Super League and Rugby League have done with nearly every ‘new’ team in the modern era). 

While extending Super League sounds good, I think it’s a long term project where the first objectives should be critiquing our own members rather than critiquing other clubs wanting to join the fold, “get your own house in order” as the old saying goes. 

 

There is no issue around stadia.  York Newcastle Toulouse Fev even Broncos have stadia better than several SL clubs. 

Last time Newcastle and Toulouse werent knocking on the Door with academies and commercial opportunities. 

Keeping SL at 12 exists for no logical reason.  

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28 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Ok, so why does that make anyone think they’d get 3x that for a game versus Catalans? The equivalent is like saying if Sheffield Eagles played Wigan or Leeds at Bramall Lane they’d get 19,000 there - they wouldn’t. 

No Sheffield vs Wigan isnt even close to a legitimate comparison.  Toulouse vs Catalán would be a rivalry game massively promoted.  It's the Saints vs Wigan of French RL. 

 

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4 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

There is no issue around stadia.  York Newcastle Toulouse Fev even Broncos have stadia better than several SL clubs. 

Last time Newcastle and Toulouse werent knocking on the Door with academies and commercial opportunities. 

Keeping SL at 12 exists for no logical reason.  

Keeping Super League at 12 exists for no logical reason, however, with a proper plan, a long-term strategy to implement greater minimum standards and eventually growth to 14, Super League would be in a greater position. It cannot be implemented overnight again, it’ll be doing exactly the same as we’ve done before and unsurprisingly, we’ll end with the same outcome. 

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13 hours ago, The Daddy said:

I just want to understand the logic for putting Leigh in SL coz I still don't understand. 

Toulouse has just signed a 9 year deal with Stade Toulousain that not just allows them to play at the iconic ground but gives them a major presence at the complex. In addition to that they now have backing from the various local authorities which in France is significant. With the partnerships they have in place  I'm confident in saying that over the next few years Toulouse will quickly become one of the biggest clubs in Europe.

The commercial partnerships that Toulouse have are on a different scale to Leigh's and it gives the RL exposure to the 4th biggest city in France that has a population in the  metropolitan area of over 1.3 million, plus many more across the South West region. It would have increased the competition's presence in France and the number of professional players which allows the France national team to become more and more competitive and create a natural rival for England on its doorstep, that has so many commercial benefits in itself to UK RL. 

We were told over and over that they had an 'oven baked squad' ready to compete. If that's the case why are they now loaning a player from another SL club? On paper, their squad wasn't any better than Toulouse's and they finished below them in the league table in recent seasons.

Apparently the bids were assessed by an 'independent panel of experts' yet there has been no explanation into the reasoning behind the decision. 

To top it all off the majority of people in this country don't even know where Leigh is and thought that the parish of Leigh-on-Sea in Essex had entered a team into SL.

It was a terrible decision which says so much about the mindset of people running the sport here. It's several months on and I'm still disgusted 

Does Toulouse have a train station?

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2 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Keeping Super League at 12 exists for no logical reason, however, with a proper plan, a long-term strategy to implement greater minimum standards and eventually growth to 14, Super League would be in a greater position. It cannot be implemented overnight again, it’ll be doing exactly the same as we’ve done before and unsurprisingly, we’ll end with the same outcome. 

No because the teams who would be involved are different.  Toulouse and Newcastle are both running academy systems and the commercial opportunities would be there to get part time playes who are good enough to movefull time.  Plus with a reduced TV deal I dont think RL can wait.  We need to strike soon. 

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11 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Keeping Super League at 12 exists for no logical reason, however, with a proper plan, a long-term strategy to implement greater minimum standards and eventually growth to 14, Super League would be in a greater position. It cannot be implemented overnight again, it’ll be doing exactly the same as we’ve done before and unsurprisingly, we’ll end with the same outcome. 

The logicsl reason is that the pie is cut into bigger pieces

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20 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

There is no issue around stadia.  York Newcastle Toulouse Fev even Broncos have stadia better than several SL clubs. 

Last time Newcastle and Toulouse werent knocking on the Door with academies and commercial opportunities. 

Keeping SL at 12 exists for no logical reason.  

Keep at 12 for financial reasons.

Truth be told theres a few SL clubs that shouldnt be in there and a 12 team league with stronger clubs in would be better

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2 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

No because the teams who would be involved are different.  Toulouse and Newcastle are both running academy systems and the commercial opportunities would be there to get part time playes who are good enough to movefull time.  Plus with a reduced TV deal I dont think RL can wait.  We need to strike soon. 

That’s the sort of thinking that’s seen the game in a place where it’s currently at. You’re relying heavily on Toulouse and Newcastle being some form of metaphorical “golden goose”, completely ignoring the various issues the game has, hoping they’ll mysteriously vanish or sort themselves out, without their being any plan or strategy to address these issues and pinning your hopes on these clubs somehow growing the sport on and off the pitch, again, without any plan or strategy. 

If Ken Davy announced Toulouse and Newcastle right now for 2022, Super League clubs would still have issues around it for the following areas;

- Stadia. 
- Declining crowds. 
- Player Pathway. 
- Player Pool. 
- Commercially. 
- Central Funding. 
- TV negotiations.

Toulouse and Newcastle may have their club in order in some of those areas, that’s great but overall, not enough clubs in Super League presently do, so brushing that under the carpet and placing ill prepared clubs into Super League doesn’t actually help solve anything.

Without Super League getting its house in order first, any change to 14 would be as unsuccessful as the last time we expanded the league. 14 is a pipe dream. We don’t have 12 strong enough clubs for Super League, expanding would mean we’d have fewer strong clubs and would create more issues than it solves. We have 14 professional clubs at present (of which Newcastle isn’t one). Of the two outside Super League, one of them is unlikely to play a home game this year and the other is haemorrhaging the few fans it does have to move into a stadium that based off the projections we’re seeing, is unsustainable, at best. 

14 is the long term aim. Or at least should be. Getting our ducks in order should be the short to medium term aims. 

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16 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

That’s the sort of thinking that’s seen the game in a place where it’s currently at. You’re relying heavily on Toulouse and Newcastle being some form of metaphorical “golden goose”, completely ignoring the various issues the game has, hoping they’ll mysteriously vanish or sort themselves out, without their being any plan or strategy to address these issues and pinning your hopes on these clubs somehow growing the sport on and off the pitch, again, without any plan or strategy. 

If Ken Davy announced Toulouse and Newcastle right now for 2022, Super League clubs would still have issues around it for the following areas;

- Stadia. 
- Declining crowds. 
- Player Pathway. 
- Player Pool. 
- Commercially. 
- Central Funding. 
- TV negotiations.

Toulouse and Newcastle may have their club in order in some of those areas, that’s great but overall, not enough clubs in Super League presently do, so brushing that under the carpet and placing ill prepared clubs into Super League doesn’t actually help solve anything.

Without Super League getting its house in order first, any change to 14 would be as unsuccessful as the last time we expanded the league. 14 is a pipe dream. We don’t have 12 strong enough clubs for Super League, expanding would mean we’d have fewer strong clubs and would create more issues than it solves. We have 14 professional clubs at present (of which Newcastle isn’t one). Of the two outside Super League, one of them is unlikely to play a home game this year and the other is haemorrhaging the few fans it does have to move into a stadium that based off the projections we’re seeing, is unsustainable, at best. 

14 is the long term aim. Or at least should be. Getting our ducks in order should be the short to medium term aims. 

Your points a contradiction,

Newcastle and Toulouse improve Stadia, improves dwindling attendances, improves player pathways with 2 new academys, Toulouse even have a second string in the french league, Commecial improves as new areas therefore new sponsors spread across tge 12 teams, cenreal funding is an odd one, should this be shared from internationals, if so regular inrernationals with france would increase the central pot of both govening bodies. TV negotiations.. Well 2 french clubs would mean a free stream / production every week from France instead of every other week, thus making us more attractive to sky, not to mention the potential of increased interest within France

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