Jump to content

Another SL restructure is being planned


Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Might have been without P&R, but wasn't a closed shop.

Well it ws because clubs could decide not to play somebody as they weren't worth the money.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 434
  • Created
  • Last Reply
3 minutes ago, Padge said:

I haven't seen anyone calling for a closed shop.

SL brings in the big money, the games strength, like it or not, is in SL.

If you have a premium product then only a foolish business would try to not maximise what you can get from it.

 

Only a fool wouldn't look to maximise all potential income streams , is there an offer on the table for a licenced/franchised SL which is substantially bigger than one with P and R ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Only a fool wouldn't look to maximise all potential income streams , is there an offer on the table for a licenced/franchised SL which is substantially bigger than one with P and R ?

Is that rhetorical or are you asking me?

 

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Only a fool wouldn't look to maximise all potential income streams , is there an offer on the table for a licenced/franchised SL which is substantially bigger than one with P and R ?

Is that rhetorical or are you asking me?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Both , is there or has there ever been an offer to pay more money to televise a ' locked in ' SL ?

How would I know?

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You’ve backtracked quicker than the football Super League there. 

Not really, it was a pretty stupid question. 

To recap, the 3 options you listed were:

  • "promotion and relegation with two full time professional sides outside the top flight"
  • Licensing
  • "car crash Middle 8’s"

You can have P&R without full time teams outside the top flight, and before anyone jumps in to complain about greedy championship clubs taking a slice of the hard earned SL pie - you don't need massive amounts of funding below SL either. You need 2 things to keep the game outside SL working, the first is a pathway and the second is time.

The pathway is worth more financially to clubs in the championship than the funding because it keeps people interested, particularly investors. Plenty on this thread have heaped praise on York and Newcastle, but no one wants to acknowledge the P&R system is what has given them a pathway to aim at. There is no chance anyone would even be talking about them for SL if the lower tiers were still going through the motions under licensing.

As for time, throughout all my years watching RL, the promoted team has always been starting on the back foot because they've been recruiting a team from the scraps of everyone else. We've seen plenty of attempts to fix this through 3 year licenses, middle 8's to build as close to a SL as you can get in the championship. Why not just stagger the seasons? Have the game below SL wrapping up early and give the promoted team a jumpstart on recruitment for once. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Not really, it was a pretty stupid question. 

To recap, the 3 options you listed were:

  • "promotion and relegation with two full time professional sides outside the top flight"
  • Licensing
  • "car crash Middle 8’s"

You can have P&R without full time teams outside the top flight, and before anyone jumps in to complain about greedy championship clubs taking a slice of the hard earned SL pie - you don't need massive amounts of funding below SL either. You need 2 things to keep the game outside SL working, the first is a pathway and the second is time.

The pathway is worth more financially to clubs in the championship than the funding because it keeps people interested, particularly investors. Plenty on this thread have heaped praise on York and Newcastle, but no one wants to acknowledge the P&R system is what has given them a pathway to aim at. There is no chance anyone would even be talking about them for SL if the lower tiers were still going through the motions under licensing.

As for time, throughout all my years watching RL, the promoted team has always been starting on the back foot because they've been recruiting a team from the scraps of everyone else. We've seen plenty of attempts to fix this through 3 year licenses, middle 8's to build as close to a SL as you can get in the championship. Why not just stagger the seasons? Have the game below SL wrapping up early and give the promoted team a jumpstart on recruitment for once. 

 

 

You have. You’ve gone from “many more” to offering one up. It was a climbdown. 

So, let me get this straight. You’re for fairness and competition but don’t actually want fairness or an even competition because you want the Championship winners to be given a huge head start in terms of recruitment for the following year? You see, this is part of a wider problem. There’s no particular easy fix, you can’t satisfy the Super League clubs and the Championship clubs and offer an even and fair compromise. This is essentially the problem we have across the board, there is no move that allows the big clubs to build upon their foundations, the clubs beneath them to invest further in their infrastructure and the clubs beneath them to invest in their infrastructure at all. You’ve essentially backed up my point that P&R is flawed with that. 

With 14/36 fully professional clubs and, what, three others who have genuine ambitions of Super League but range from kind of close to still a huge way off, we’re pandering to no more than a handful of middling to small clubs. I’m not sure how any credible competition can run a secondary competition with such a drastic mix of clubs in it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

It wasn't, because no club was locked out from competing for any of the national competitions

But that was every season, P&R means that you cannot compete for all the national competitions every season, with P&R the majority are locked out of competing for the SL trophy.

There is a contradiction in your argument.

 

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

You have. You’ve gone from “many more” to offering one up. It was a climbdown. 

So, let me get this straight. You’re for fairness and competition but don’t actually want fairness or an even competition because you want the Championship winners to be given a huge head start in terms of recruitment for the following year? You see, this is part of a wider problem. There’s no particular easy fix, you can’t satisfy the Super League clubs and the Championship clubs and offer an even and fair compromise. This is essentially the problem we have across the board, there is no move that allows the big clubs to build upon their foundations, the clubs beneath them to invest further in their infrastructure and the clubs beneath them to invest in their infrastructure at all. 

With 14/36 fully professional clubs and, what, three others who have genuine ambitions of Super League but range from kind of close to still a huge way off, we’re pandering to no more than a handful of middling to small clubs. I’m not sure how any credible competition can run a secondary competition with such a drastic mix of clubs in it. 

So you're saying you now believe there are only 4 possible options? 'What have the romans ever done for us?..." springs to mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

So you're saying you now believe there are only 4 possible options? 'What have the romans ever done for us?..." springs to mind.

Where did I say that? You said there were many more. You quickly backtracked and have finally offered one up and providing further, first hand evidence why P&R is an enigma and is a weight around the sports neck. Evening, Mr Woodward.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Where did I say that? You said there were many more. You quickly backtracked and have finally offered one up and providing further, first hand evidence why P&R is an enigma and is a weight around the sports neck. Evening, Mr Woodward.

 

Well either you do believe only a very select and specific group of scenarios are available, or you agree with my pretty uncontroversial opinion that there are more options available. You can't argue both and it isn't backtracking just because I didn't insult both of our intelligences answering what was a pretty stupid question. There's more than just those scenarios you've listed on this thread alone, let alone the countless other threads on here over the years. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

How do you implement promotion and relegation on a sport with 14/36 fully professional sides? 

The yank franchise system would have been an abomination for football, however in RL it may be ideal for the reason you state. Having a closed shop in football would have made winning meaningless, as success is nothing when there is no risk of failure. With no money flowing down the pyramid it also would have killed off all those small town football clubs, clubs that are at the heart of their community. Rugby league doesn’t have this set up as there are so few clubs that have the capacity to play at the highest level, and the small clubs don’t get much money from the top league anyway so they’d survive just fine if it was closed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After 2 days of boring the country rigid with talk of a closed league in places like Milan Barcelona London Turin Liverpool , places no one's heard of, I hope Sky give as much coverage to our problem. 

People up and down the country,  at breakfast over their cornflakes are desperate for a  closed league involving Leigh, Toulouse,  Wakefield and the metropolis of Hull.

To be SERIOUS,  fans are fans , in any sport, love of club is just as strong in RL as in football,  the difference is the numbers in RL are small, their voices are as passionate but not heard nationally. The lesson from the ESL fiasco for RL is " don't take fans for granted " If the custodians of RL can PROVE that licensing and closed shop is the only alternative to oblivion for the game, then ok, but otherwise the RL pyramid is as precious to our game as it is to football fans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

If the custodians of RL can PROVE that licensing and closed shop is the only alternative to oblivion for the game, then ok, but otherwise the RL pyramid is as precious to our game as it is to football fans.

RL doesn't have a pyramid and does have a closed shop - the drawbridge is pulled up below League 1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can we please all stop the "we have a pyramid that is sacristan" style rubbish.. 

We have a closed shop, there is no broadening of the base or anything simply because the "pyramid" lasts for all of 3 divisions and then it stops. You have to be invited or apply to enter league 1. There is no other route in, there is no route from the bottom to the top. What we are really arguing about is how we allow for teams to move around the closed shop we already have, and have always have.. all we have ever done is jigger about with the same closed shop, be it 1 division or 3 divisions its still a closed shop. Invite only does, and always has, applied to RL bizarrely. 

It is a very valid argument to have and closing off the top layer of it could be dangerous and IMHO should just be limited to drive standards up but still the argument we have this all singing all dancing football style pyramid is garbage. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

RL doesn't have a pyramid and does have a closed shop - the drawbridge is pulled up below League 1.

Yeah, I meant league 1 upwards. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

RL doesn't have a pyramid and does have a closed shop - the drawbridge is pulled up below League 1.

Apologies you posted while I was typing the same thing but longer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Yeah, I meant league 1 upwards. 

but even then we have had 2 divisions, 1 division and 3 divisions, we've had splits on county lines and splits on ability.. we dont have a set in stone way of doing this unlike football.. to say that this way, which we have not had for all that long in the grand scheme of things, is "precious" is not true.. 

I dont think we should scrap P&R, dont get me wrong, but i just think the argument along emotional lines of "this is the way this sport should be" is rubbish, not historically accurate and a bit hypocritical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Don’t get me wrong, I think Leigh is a proud club with a cracking, atmospheric ground (great acoustics!). But everyone kind of knows Leigh will always be small time. That’s down to geography, I suppose. 

Depends what you class as Leigh - The old council ( before being placed in the 'new' metropolitan one) consisted of Leigh, Atherton and Tyldesley - the population of which today is 120k. and can access LSV in under 5 mins to 10 mins by car. We can be a very viable SL club as it stands today ps and will be getting another Railway station soon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, RP London said:

I dont think we should scrap P&R, dont get me wrong, but i just think the argument along emotional lines of "this is the way this sport should be" is rubbish, not historically accurate and a bit hypocritical.

Plus historically in this country it's only football that's done it throughout its existence. RU only brought in competitive leagues relatively recently in the 1980s, and cricket has always been a closed shop. To paraphrase another post on this thread, that means a hell of a lot of sports "aren't sport".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.