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Another SL restructure is being planned


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1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

So you completely ignored me saying that we need an annual tournament or that games need to take place across the country. Your own highlighting of the other codes tournament shows an annual event can get more than 140,000 a game. Plus that it's not just the tv income but sponsors you acquire from them knowing you have 4/5 internationals every year on the BBC or other fta channel. 

England vs Wales (with a decent Welsh team) or France will give the sport much more exposure and income opportunities then the fantasy of NA franchises in the UK. Let's leave it at that. 

No I didn't ignore you, I just don't see how an RL tournament involving England, Wales and France will generate much additional money.  Matches such as those have only drawn well in World Cups, other than that they draw poorly.  You have to go all the way back to 1994 to see the last time Wales drew more than 1500 spectators for a home match against France which wasn't a World Cup match.

The RU Six Nations is a high profile tournament with decades of history and establishment connections, that's why it draws the sort of crowds and TV audiences which the BBC and ITV felt justified them paying 90 million £ per year for the rights to broadcast it.  The tournament's profile is in turn based on the stature which RU has in British society.  You can't create a comparable tournament without having a comparable basis for it first. that's the point I'm making.

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11 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You can't create a comparable tournament without having a comparable basis for it first. that's the point I'm making.

That could easily apply to your ' Big picture ' Super League idea BP 

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4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

That could easily apply to your ' Big picture ' Super League idea BP 

You're right about that, that's why it would only be viable with a plan to give it the necessary stature from the start to attract the crowds and TV audiences which it would need.

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Let’s wait and see how successful the World Cup is.

If England can win it riding an emotional crest of a wave of public interest throughout the country that might change things for me.

I’m not saying a franchise model necessarily, but let’s capitalise on it probably focusing first on reinforcing the international game.

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12 hours ago, Big Picture said:

I didn't say the problem is internationals or lack of them.  The problem is the game's small footprint, its dependence on what Sean McGuire has described as "smallish economically deprived towns" in the north and the perception that creates among the British public that it's just a small time regional game with limited appeal.

Changing that perception is crucial if the game is going to stop continually falling further behind the other sports in the UK, but a few more internationals which will mostly be played in those same smallish towns up north won't cut it.  The idea that additional income which amounts to less than 150,000 £ per match (even if that was every year) will make any material difference in the game's finances is naive and fanciful.

Internationals are undoubtedly the highest profile games in RL (and RU). The sport cannot increase its footprint through club games, it relies on the international game to do that. 

12 hours ago, Big Picture said:

As for the franchise model you mentioned, decades of experience in five sports have proven beyond doubt that that's how to make investment in big time pro sports franchises profitable for their owners.

And right here we have the difference between here and North America. In North America the owner is king, it’s HIS team, he can move it to a different location at the whim of further lining his pockets from his customers. He even picks up the trophy before any players/manager who won the bleedin thing. It’s soulless. These “franchises” (horrible term) are businesses first, second and third, vehicles to make money for their owner. They exist to maximise his (or her) profit. 

This is an alien concept here:

“At a football club there’s a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don’t come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques.” - Bill Shankly, Liverpool FC.

Teams here are at the heart of their community, supporters ARE the club (followed by players/manager a distant second). Franchises there up sticks and move if the owner decides he can milk more money for himself from customers elsewhere. 

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35 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

So in this thread already I 've already said we'd need to lock in a Welsh and French teams into SL for games to get competitive. So yes you have missed the point.  And telling me it wont make as money as sin nations isnt some profound insight. 

The question is not whether it would make more money than other code but whether it would generate more money for the game to distribute than currently.

Its also about providing more FTA content, more publicity for the game, more opportunities and coverage for sponsors, and more column inches. Internationals on the BBC do that.

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8 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Yep.  I'm a potential sponsor. "How many games do you play England?" 

"Well sometimes we have internationals and other years nothing " or "We have five games a year all featured on FTA television to a potential audience of millions."

One of these has a viable commercial offer and one of these does not. Principle would be no different for Wales or France. 

The original 3 then 4 nation's comps should have been the vehicle to expand and solidify the International calender 

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35 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Probably but if the Oceanic cup is going to be a consistent thing we need to look to ourselves.  Three core teams  (Eng, Wales and France) plus one. 

Exactly. The obvious answer is a mid season European Cup and to leave the end of season open for internationals between hemispheres, whether that is 4 nations type competitions, tours etc.

Condescending the international calendar into a few weeks at the end of the season simply isn't good enough and will never progress the international game. It is essentially just more of the same.

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51 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

The original 3 then 4 nation's comps should have been the vehicle to expand and solidify the International calender 

There were promises of an expanded 8 team comprising that never came to fruition. At that point should have reverted back to 3/4 nations

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4 hours ago, DC77 said:

Internationals are undoubtedly the highest profile games in RL (and RU). The sport cannot increase its footprint through club games, it relies on the international game to do that. 

And right here we have the difference between here and North America. In North America the owner is king, it’s HIS team, he can move it to a different location at the whim of further lining his pockets from his customers. He even picks up the trophy before any players/manager who won the bleedin thing. It’s soulless. These “franchises” (horrible term) are businesses first, second and third, vehicles to make money for their owner. They exist to maximise his (or her) profit. 

This is an alien concept here:

“At a football club there’s a holy trinity - the players, the manager and the supporters. Directors don’t come into it. They are only there to sign the cheques.” - Bill Shankly, Liverpool FC.

Teams here are at the heart of their community, supporters ARE the club (followed by players/manager a distant second). Franchises there up sticks and move if the owner decides he can milk more money for himself from customers elsewhere. 

The differences are less than you think.  Though owners can up sticks and move they rarely do, partly because their leagues now have franchises in almost all potential markets and partly because they're such stable, profitable leagues.  And when they do, it's as wrenching an experience for their local fans as it would be over there.

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

So in this thread already I 've already said we'd need to lock in a Welsh and French teams into SL for games to get competitive. So yes you have missed the point.  And telling me it wont make as money as sin nations isnt some profound insight. 

The question is not whether it would make more money than other code but whether it would generate more money for the game to distribute than currently.

After the way Toronto was effectively kicked out I think we can forget about locking in Welsh and French teams into SL so those matches can get competitive, that won't happen.  Even if it could happen, the cream of the talent in those countries would still be playing RU because it pays so much better.

Therefore a European tournament won't be competitive enough to generate more money for the game to distribute than currently.  As I said the underlying fundamentals aren't present for that to happen.

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8 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I am not so sure.  At this stage I dont give a toss about playing Australia tbh.  There's a spot mid season for international game versus non European sides  (Tonga, PNG) or team not in 4 nations then 4 nations end of season over 4 weeks.

You don't seriously imagine that the same NRL paymasters who didn't want the Kiwis flying as far as Denver would stand for any of those other teams flying 3500 km further for a mid-season match do you?

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17 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Maybe not but they normally have a free week when one SofO game is played and so a public offer should be made to force the NRL to accept or block it, in public.  If not there is Ireland or Scotland Eng could play  

The NRL wish to get rid of that free week and only have end of season internationals. When we did have it any matches were only on their terms and they did their upmost to scupper anything else, like the Denver test. Hence why I said mid season a European Cup and leaving the end of season open for internationals between hemispheres.

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Just now, ShropshireBull said:

Against purely because you have way more competition with other international sports events in summer. 

If teams governed by NRL dont want to let them go in long run we need to focus on building our own brand and let them get on with it.  

Short term you are right and we probably have to play France mid season before Kiwis or someone else comes over.  

Minimum from now should be 5 tests a year with at least one in London. 

Well if we don't play European nations mid season then we wont be having mid season internationals, its as simple as that. I am not happy with no international Rugby League for 11 months of the year and fail to see how that helps the game. We either build our own calendar and develop nations in our own backyard or we are going to be awfully isolated going forward. This has been increasingly apparent for a number of years and the RFL need to recognise it.

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11 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Yeah for now France needs to be a mid season game away and other europe team at home but long term a commercially viable four nations european tournament has to be end of season. 

Why?

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20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Why?

It doesn't make any sense when we can have something like that mid season and leave the end of season open for internationals between hemispheres, the only time when it will be able to play these.

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27 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

I dont think we can.  I think we can forget about NA Franchises that had no possible way of generating a TV deal demanding a full cut of SL funding so they can import Aussies with 0 Canadian players. 

NA should get on with its own league and teams like Walesand France should then talk to Canada and USA about having mid season internationals when the weather is good enough for Canada to host them. 

Yes we can forget about any ring-fenced Welsh or French clubs in SL.  There isn't enough money coming in for them to go back to 14 teams and the traditional heartland clubs aren't about to let their numbers be reduced further, they've made that very clear.

I agree that any American teams need to be in a league of their own, but to generate a paying TV deal that league would need to be transatlantic so it can stand out from all the other leagues over here and attract the sort of viewing audiences necessary.  A league like the NARL with less funding than minor pro leagues over here have isn't likely to amount to much I'm afraid.

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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

It doesn't make any sense when we can have something like that mid season and have leave the end of season open for internationals between hemispheres, the only time when it will be able to play these.

Exactly, which incidentally, is the same reason RU plays its international calendar how it does - no nation travels to the other hemisphere in the middle of their own "domestic" season.

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14 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Because our season mid way is June and if such a tournament is trying to bring in a wider audience it is going to lose against either Football World Cup, Euros or Olympics.  

The other codes money spinner takes place with no international event competition.  So thats why I think long term it would need to be end of season .

Only every 2 years, and even then there's still July and August. 

I don't see why we would sacrifice our only period where we can play antipodean opposition, home or away, for teams we can play mid season. The only teams we can play outside of that autumn window are Northern Hemisphere ones - we're a summer sport, lets play some internationals in summer!

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6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Only every 2 years, and even then there's still July and August. 

I don't see why we would sacrifice our only period where we can play antipodean opposition, home or away, for teams we can play mid season. The only teams we can play outside of that autumn window are Northern Hemisphere ones - we're a summer sport, lets play some internationals in summer!

No problem if we revert back to winter, proper tours for us every 4 years and recieving Aus, NZ and PNG or even one of the contrived Oceanic teams in the 3 intervening years, leaving France for mid season international preparations.

But it will never happen, to many folk are frightened of getting cold on the winter terraces and stands.

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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No problem if we revert back to winter, proper tours for us every 4 years and recieving Aus, NZ and PNG or even one of the contrived Oceanic teams in the 3 intervening years, leaving France for mid season international preparations.

But it will never happen, to many folk are frightened of getting cold on the winter terraces and stands.

More of a problem in Winter, the NRL aren't going to accept incoming tours as well as an Autumn world cup.

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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Drop the WC, has I say it's a contrived competition of Aussie Nationals, I am sure plenty NRL coaches would agree with me!

They won't accept the mid season games either, so by your plan we've now got a season we have to stop 2 months in to go to Australia for 6 weeks or play them over here in a world cup and no internationals in our off season.

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22 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They won't accept the mid season games either, so by your plan we've now got a season we have to stop 2 months in to go to Australia for 6 weeks or play them over here in a world cup and no internationals in our off season.

Good in'it, I call that 6 weeks down under just about a good holiday period.

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4 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

100% do not drop the world cup, just ban switching teams.  One nation thats it.  Let Aussies get on with Oceanic Cup but if they are binning that then invite Kiwis over for four nations with France. 

For me, we just need to get to a stage where tv companies and sponsors know they are getting at least 5 England games. I'd like to see someone from Europe have an international against Canada in the summer too,  just to grow the game. 

I agree. Keep the WC but make sure there's tournaments in the 3 years between WCs which cater for the big nations such as a 4N or 6N plus smaller comps like Euro, Americas, Africa, Asia/Pacific.

Mid season needs a couple of weeks at Origin time for test matches. 

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