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Another SL restructure is being planned


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50 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

They don’t have any moral high ground though. They developed their game properly years and years ago, so they don’t need things like no P&R now. They can feasibly lose those 6 clubs (although it would be a huge blow) and professional football would still continue. 
Rugby League tried to get the clubs to be more competitive and/or better run in order to boost the whole game and generate wider interest in the long run. It didn’t work but the intention was for the benefit of the whole sport.

Football fans have never followed a struggling sport and have no comprehension about things like expansion etc so the idea of no P&R is anathema to them. However, football wasn’t above putting teams in their league without playing a competitive game when it suited their aims. (Chelsea or Bradford City) 

Not respecting the principle of all clubs having the right to compete at the top level irrespective of where they are from or who they are is wrong within any sport. 

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Phil Caplan elaborated on this in today’s Forty-20 podcast. Says a plan has been drawn up for a complete overhaul of the game from top to bottom, and apparently there is corporate money behind it to fund it all (I assume he means private equity). 

The clubs are undecided on it (nothing new there!). Says more on the plan should come out in the next couple of weeks. 

Edited by Man of Kent
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1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

Phil Caplan elaborated on this in today’s Forty-20 podcast. Says a plan has been drawn up for a complete overhaul of the game from top to bottom, and apparently there is corporate money behind it to fund it all (I assume he means private equity). 

The clubs are undecided on it (nothing new there!). Says more on the plan should come out in the next couple of weeks. 

Sounds interesting, let's hope it's for the good of the game and there is a genuine long term strategy for the game to stabilise and then grow. 

2008 RFL Wakefield & District Young Volunteer of the Year

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2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Phil Caplan elaborated on this in today’s Forty-20 podcast. Says a plan has been drawn up for a complete overhaul of the game from top to bottom, and apparently there is corporate money behind it to fund it all (I assume he means private equity). 

The clubs are undecided on it (nothing new there!). Says more on the plan should come out in the next couple of weeks. 

Interesting. Let’s see what it is. 

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28 minutes ago, Cardypaul said:

Not respecting the principle of all clubs having the right to compete at the top level irrespective of where they are from or who they are is wrong within any sport. 

Well they do have the right to.compete....they just need to up their game for the good of the whole sport.

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1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

Phil Caplan elaborated on this in today’s Forty-20 podcast. Says a plan has been drawn up for a complete overhaul of the game from top to bottom, and apparently there is corporate money behind it to fund it all (I assume he means private equity). 

The clubs are undecided on it (nothing new there!). Says more on the plan should come out in the next couple of weeks. 

I wonder if the PE company is part owned by Marwan Koukash and Derek John Beaumont?

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8 hours ago, Johnoco said:

Well they do have the right to.compete....they just need to up their game for the good of the whole sport.

Except there is a hardcore of people on here want some form of licensing or cherry pick clubs based on their location or what they perceive as their value to the game which is as bad as what is going on in football but at least they have got the balls to stand up to it.

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32 minutes ago, Cardypaul said:

Except there is a hardcore of people on here want some form of licensing or cherry pick clubs based on their location or what they perceive as their value to the game which is as bad as what is going on in football but at least they have got the balls to stand up to it.

Both the RFL and SL regularly pick clubs based on what they perceive as their "value to the game".

Licencing has perfectly good arguments both in its favour and against, as does P&R.

Agree picking clubs purely on location alone is a little bit mad but most people going down that route do generally add some supporting evidence.

I wouldn't worry too much though, I don't think the RFL and SL powerbrokers post on here.

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10 hours ago, Cardypaul said:

Not respecting the principle of all clubs having the right to compete at the top level irrespective of where they are from or who they are is wrong within any sport. 

There's clearly a difference between a sport where 40 clubs are capable of genuinely competing at the highest level, and one where, if we're honest, there are at best 6.

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1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

There's clearly a difference between a sport where 40 clubs are capable of genuinely competing at the highest level, and one where, if we're honest, there are at best 6.

If you are on about 40 clubs in the English Football leagues - there's no chance 40 can compete at the highest level. 

You are saying a mid-table team competing with Man City? Most PL sides can't cope. 

Football fans have a lot more respect for other teams. Years gone by the likes of Huddersfield Blackpool, have been in the PL and it's a celebration. 

Take a look at Leigh in SL and all you get is your face doesn't fit. Tough! And good on Leigh. It's time to end this nonsense that no team is allowed in the top league. If you deserve the chance by winning the Championship GF then let's embrace it and make it a celebration. This team may have bags of heritage and the team will have worked damn hard to get into this position. 

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15 minutes ago, Chris Taylor said:

 

Take a look at Leigh in SL and all you get is your face doesn't fit. Tough! And good on Leigh. It's time to end this nonsense that no team is allowed in the top league. If you deserve the chance by winning the Championship GF then let's embrace it and make it a celebration. This team may have bags of heritage and the team will have worked damn hard to get into this position. 

Except Leigh didn't win their place in SL for this year by winning on the field, and I think that's why so many people have an issue, not because they're Leigh, or because of their geographical location !

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21 minutes ago, Chris Taylor said:

Take a look at Leigh in SL and all you get is your face doesn't fit. Tough! And good on Leigh. It's time to end this nonsense that no team is allowed in the top league. If you deserve the chance by winning the Championship GF then let's embrace it and make it a celebration. This team may have bags of heritage and the team will have worked damn hard to get into this position. 

Leigh were promoted because they won a contest of powerpoint presentations and business plans.

So, y'know, exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

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3 hours ago, Cardypaul said:

Except there is a hardcore of people on here want some form of licensing or cherry pick clubs based on their location or what they perceive as their value to the game which is as bad as what is going on in football but at least they have got the balls to stand up to it.

I think the thing is for most is that over the past 25 years of super league nothing seems to have changed with the vast majority of clubs. There is development in some, new grounds, better youth facilities etc but others seem to limp from on season to another with no real improvement. Where as in football if you do that you go backwards down the pyramid in RL it seems that that doesnt happen (mainly because there is no one behind looking to push you out). The belief is that some sort of minimum standards is needed to be enforced but, of course, without risk of losing your place you still dont really get to have that raising of the standard (as shown with licencing last time around). 

I would suggest that IF teams were being pushed and the pyramid worked as above then no one would want the end of P&R.. however, at the present moment with that not happening then the closed shop/franchise/licence idea is still open and debated. 

There is no argument in football that makes a closed shop right, there are arguments in other sports including our friends at twickenham (who debate this every couple of years).

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3 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Except Leigh didn't win their place in SL for this year by winning on the field, and I think that's why so many people have an issue, not because they're Leigh, or because of their geographical location !

People have had an issue ever since the concept of Super League was mooted. 

Just look at the comments above. X Team should just be killed off..... 

2008 RFL Wakefield & District Young Volunteer of the Year

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3 minutes ago, RP London said:

I think the thing is for most is that over the past 25 years of super league nothing seems to have changed with the vast majority of clubs. There is development in some, new grounds, better youth facilities etc but others seem to limp from on season to another with no real improvement. Where as in football if you do that you go backwards down the pyramid in RL it seems that that doesnt happen (mainly because there is no one behind looking to push you out). The belief is that some sort of minimum standards is needed to be enforced but, of course, without risk of losing your place you still dont really get to have that raising of the standard (as shown with licencing last time around). 

I would suggest that IF teams were being pushed and the pyramid worked as above then no one would want the end of P&R.. however, at the present moment with that not happening then the closed shop/franchise/licence idea is still open and debated. 

There is no argument in football that makes a closed shop right, there are arguments in other sports including our friends at twickenham (who debate this every couple of years).

Your right we can't really compare RL to football. While there's a relatively small number of mega rich clubs, the sheer number clubs overall means that if one starts failing there's always another of a comparable size and competitiveness waiting to take their place. And because there's much more money in the game those clubs can build in advance so they can be fairly competitive once they do get promoted.

That just can't happen with RL. The majority of lower league clubs are part time, run on a shoestring and don't have rich owners. So when they come up they're simply not able to compete & P&R means they're almost always likely to go straight back down. P&R only works when you have a comparable league below who's clubs can come up and be competitive straight away. 

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On 18/04/2021 at 16:22, Manfred Mann said:

It is clear which existing clubs definitely belong in Super League:

Wigan

St Helens

Warrington

Leeds 

Hull FC

Hull KR

Catalans

Toulouse

 

There are the borderline existing Super League clubs:

Huddersfield (slightly insufficient fan base)

Castleford ( unacceptable stadium)

 

There are the attractive possible future Super League clubs:

London

York

Newcastle 

Avignon

Paris

Toronto

Ottawa

 

There are the failed existing Super League clubs who need to be relegated:

Wakefield (unacceptable stadium, inadequate fan base, inadequate finances)

Salford (inadequate fan base)

Leigh (inadequate fan base)

 

What was it Supertramp sang about?

And you didn't answer my question the last week when I pointed out that in '17 Leigh posted 6,500 average gates of which 5,500 were home fans, why was that?

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12 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Phil Caplan elaborated on this in today’s Forty-20 podcast. Says a plan has been drawn up for a complete overhaul of the game from top to bottom, and apparently there is corporate money behind it to fund it all (I assume he means private equity). 

The clubs are undecided on it (nothing new there!). Says more on the plan should come out in the next couple of weeks. 

Can I add my "interesting" to this as well!!  Who doesn't love a good old re-structure!!  But the fascinating thing is where has this "corporate money" appeared from as before Christmas Mr. Elstone seemingly left no stone unturned?

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10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I pointed out that in '17 Leigh posted 6,500 average gates of which 5,500 were home fans, why was that?

Not sure why so much Leigh bashing on one hand and so much Featherstone promoting on the other? Why is this? Both are great smaller clubs............ 

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13 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Can I add my "interesting" to this as well!!  Who doesn't love a good old re-structure!!  But the fascinating thing is where has this "corporate money" appeared from as before Christmas Mr. Elstone seemingly left no stone unturned?

To be fair, Elstone didn't fail in that regard. As you will recall, there were offers on the table. 

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4 hours ago, Cardypaul said:

Except there is a hardcore of people on here want some form of licensing or cherry pick clubs based on their location or what they perceive as their value to the game which is as bad as what is going on in football but at least they have got the balls to stand up to it.

By that logic, presumably you would also advocate relegation from League 1 in order to have a full pyramid system from top to bottom, enabling any club to work their way through the ranks from regional community level to Super League?

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On 18/04/2021 at 16:49, Manfred Mann said:

So the best licensed Super League structure should be:

Wigan

St Helens

Warrington

Leeds 

Hull FC

Hull KR

Catalans

Toulouse

 

Huddersfield*

Castleford* 

 

* = 3 years probation pending rectification of problems.

 

A 10 team Super League would then plan future expansion to 12 or 14 clubs with London, Newcastle, York, Avignon, Paris, Toronto and Ottawa as preferred candidates.

 

 

How long has Cas been on probation to improve their stadium, on entering the last licencing period they along with Wakefield and Salford were given an ultimatum, improve or out only Salford abided.

When will you lot wanting another licencing situation realise it cannot be done to choose the best clubs to compete in a SL of  12, 13, 14 or 16 clubs (all numbers have been suggested on this site) without leaning to give an unfair advantage to some clubs, in an excersize of ticking the boxes on a list of criteria we all know that we have a max of 6 clubs that are ahead of the rest, there will be very little daylight if any between the rest that could put some clubs in Shangri-La with the £2M payout whilst leaving the others on the outside and if has been suggested no distribution money at all below SL. 

All this talk of York, Newcastle, Toulouse, even London and your tinpot Paris, Avignon, Toronto and Ottawa are just someones fancy, it would be not unlike the selection panel would do in awarding SL places to some clubs above others, a Criteria has to be adjudged by what is in place, not what will be promised, promises are not useually met see Wakefield and Castleford the SL money they have been given has been employed to recieving more SL money.

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6 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

To be fair, Elstone didn't fail in that regard. As you will recall, there were offers on the table. 

It would be somewhat typical of rugby league to decline one lot of financial equity at a significant cost only to then get an incredibly similar investment a few months later.

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Just now, gingerjon said:

It would be somewhat typical of rugby league to decline one lot of financial equity at a significant cost only to then get an incredibly similar investment a few months later.

Maybe it was the only way to get rid of Elstone?

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