Video referee...again...

[Old Frightful]

On Friday during Hull FC v Wakey, Marc Sneyd  had a kick charged down. At the PTB before his kick, Mason Lino was lying offside and, as luck would have it, the charged down ball went straight to him and he picked it up and ran 50m to score.

From 3 min and 11 seconds on here if anyone didn't see it :

https://www.superleague.co.uk/article/1941/hull-fc-v-trinity

Now I have no problem in Thaler not picking up the offside, mistakes are made. But he went to the VR to check on something during the try, not sure what it was, but obviously not whether Lino was offside or not, and the VR awarded the try.

This was brought up on twitter and (former?) Ref Ian Smith said checking if Lino was offside wasn't in the VR's remit.

I'm curious to know why it wasn't in his remit?, after all, Lino was the try scorer.

The concerns over whether the try should be awarded or not were surely only offside and the grounding so it wouldn't have taken much effort or time.

Is it that he can only look at what he's asked to look at maybe? The RFL change things so bloody often I forget.

(Edit : Apologies the screenshot from twitter is so massive, I'm limited in my technical ability to reduce it unfortunately. 

[Dunbar]

I remember when the video ref first came in, they would check everything back to the play the ball that led to the try. They don't do that now so I assume the policy is that the video ref can check everything from when the ball was in play.

I am assuming that markers and players offside at the play the ball is all part of the play the ball section and not checked. So in this instance the players offside at the ruck is not checked.

I also assume that the reason why we don't go back to check the last play the ball is that they are all illegal and so every try would be ruled out.

[DavidM]

If we have to keep it check in goal stuff like put downs and that’s it . Things like obstructions are just painful to go through , and let’s see a knock on or high shot at a thousand frames a second 

[Barry Badrinath]

Thats not an incidental thing though, he's offside, surely if it was an interception and there was a suspected offside that would be checked 

[Old Frightful]

3 hours ago, Barry Badrinath said:

Thats not an incidental thing though, he's offside, surely if it was an interception and there was a suspected offside that would be checked 

Exactly my point.

Offside is one of the easier infringements to check so why didn't he do it?

And what did Thaler ask the VR to check...just the grounding?

Very odd.

[bobbruce]

I don’t think he was offside in relation to the ball as the player who charged it down was in front of him when he touched the ball. The question I asked in the match thread i thought a player who was on the wrong side of the ruck at the ptb had to sit out that play. They couldn’t play themselves onside and just had to stay out of the play for that tackle or does that only count for the attacking team. 

[Big Picture]

10 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

I don’t think he was offside in relation to the ball as the player who charged it down was in front of him when he touched the ball. The question I asked in the match thread i thought a player who was on the wrong side of the ruck at the ptb had to sit out that play. They couldn’t play themselves onside and just had to stay out of the play for that tackle or does that only count for the attacking team. 

Good point.  As the Offside rule clearly states:

An offside player is placed onside if:
(a) an opponent moves ten metres or more with the ball.
(b) an opponent touches the ball without retaining it.
(c) one of his own team in possession of the ball runs in front of him.
(d) one of his own team kicks or knocks the ball forward and takes up a position in front of him in the field of play.
(e) he retires behind the point where the ball was last touched by one of his own team.

In the case of a teammate upfield of him charging down a kick, point (d) would apply.

[Barry Badrinath]

I presume option d applies if you're in possession and not a chargedown scenario.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Good point.  As the Offside rule clearly states:

An offside player is placed onside if:
(a) an opponent moves ten metres or more with the ball.
(b) an opponent touches the ball without retaining it.
(c) one of his own team in possession of the ball runs in front of him.
(d) one of his own team kicks or knocks the ball forward and takes up a position in front of him in the field of play.
(e) he retires behind the point where the ball was last touched by one of his own team.

In the case of a teammate upfield of him charging down a kick, point (d) would apply.

Wouldn't point b apply as well, a player taking possession and kicking it is him touching the ball and not retaining it?

[Big Picture]

6 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Wouldn't point b apply as well, a player taking possession and kicking it is him touching the ball and not retaining it?

Interesting point but I'm not sure about that.  99% of the time (if not more) the kicker catches the ball before kicking it and I'm pretty sure that catching it would be enough to constitute retaining it.

[MZH]

15 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Good point.  As the Offside rule clearly states:

An offside player is placed onside if:
(a) an opponent moves ten metres or more with the ball.
(b) an opponent touches the ball without retaining it.
(c) one of his own team in possession of the ball runs in front of him.
(d) one of his own team kicks or knocks the ball forward and takes up a position in front of him in the field of play.
(e) he retires behind the point where the ball was last touched by one of his own team.

In the case of a teammate upfield of him charging down a kick, point (d) would apply.

He wasn't technically offside though. He was out of play. So he couldn't get played onside. Those rules are written for when a player is in front of a kicker or whatever. 

“Out of Play” as opposed to “off side” 3. Players who are out of play at a play-the-ball (Section 11), a scrum (Section 12), a kick off or drop-out (Section 8 ) a penalty kick (Section 13) or a free kick (Section 13) are not put “on side” in the manner described in para 3 above. (Seeappropriate Sections).

 

It shouldn't have been a try.

[Oxford]

This is all a bit obsessive, isn't it? Even by the rules is rules standards of posts.

 

[Dunbar]

38 minutes ago, MZH said:

He wasn't technically offside though. He was out of play. So he couldn't get played onside. Those rules are written for when a player is in front of a kicker or whatever. 

“Out of Play” as opposed to “off side” 3. Players who are out of play at a play-the-ball (Section 11), a scrum (Section 12), a kick off or drop-out (Section 8 ) a penalty kick (Section 13) or a free kick (Section 13) are not put “on side” in the manner described in para 3 above. (Seeappropriate Sections).

 

It shouldn't have been a try.

I had this conversation a little while back when one of the Morris boys pulled off a try saving tackle but he was off the pitch when the play started and I thought that he was 'out of play' and should not have been played on-side.

O

[Dunbar]

But there are two parts to this conversation. 

1. Was he offside and able to be played back on.

2. Was the video ref able to rule on it.

It seems that the video ref was not able to rule on it one way or the other as his location at the play the ball was out of scope for a video ref call.

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

Oops.  I thought this was going to be about the Bureta Faraimo incident. 

[Barry Badrinath]

44 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

But there are two parts to this conversation. 

1. Was he offside and able to be played back on.

2. Was the video ref able to rule on it.

It seems that the video ref was not able to rule on it one way or the other as his location at the play the ball was out of scope for a video ref call.

Another way of looking at this,  is imagine the dh had run from the ptb towards the defence, but stopped after 5 metres, lino comes walking back, but decides to tackle the carrier, or intercepts a pass or offload that he just happens to be in the way of.

 

I dont think he's active at all till he gets back at least the first ten. 

 

Mind I've seen rhe above scenarios happen in a game and not be picked up either.

[OMEGA]

If you’re on the wrong side of the PTB then you cannot involve yourself in the game until after the next play the ball.

You are ‘out of play’!

The referee didn’t pick it up and the VR can’t adjudicate on it.

The try shouldn’t have stood, Wakefield benefited from the error and got back in the game due to it. On this occasion it didn’t affect the result but imagine if it had or if the same error cost someone a play off place or sent them down to the Championship!

[bobbruce]

5 hours ago, Dunbar said:

But there are two parts to this conversation. 

1. Was he offside and able to be played back on.

2. Was the video ref able to rule on it.

It seems that the video ref was not able to rule on it one way or the other as his location at the play the ball was out of scope for a video ref call.

The VR has definitely ruled out a try for a player being “downtown” I think the term they used. For being the wrong side of the ruck. I suppose it’s whether the ref has to specifically ask for that but that isn’t the way the VR works usually. 

[fighting irish]

Please clarify something for me.

If a player is ''out of play'' (and the example used is) lying the wrong side of the play the ball.

How does he get back ''in play''?

What if he was in touch, rubbing his knee, for example and play continues.

Is he also ''out of play'' and if so, what needs to happen, (or does he need to do) for him to get back ''in play''? 

[Wholly Trinity]

17 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

The VR has definitely ruled out a try for a player being “downtown” I think the term they used. For being the wrong side of the ruck. I suppose it’s whether the ref has to specifically ask for that but that isn’t the way the VR works usually. 

Downtown is slightly different again but more of an offside than the out of play.

“Down town” Any player who is in front of the kicker in general play is not permitted to advance beyond the point of the previous playthe- ball until the ball has gone past the off side players. This rule delays the movement of the off side players downfield in an attempt to encircle the ball receiver as he collects the ball.

it seems strange that the video ref can't judge on these things as it would be easy to adjudicate-maybe the thinking is that not all games have VR so would be unfair?

[Wholly Trinity]

1 minute ago, fighting irish said:

Please clarify something for me.

If a player is ''out of play'' (and the example used is) lying the wrong side of the play the ball.

How does he get back ''in play''?

What if he was in touch, rubbing his knee, for example and play continues.

Is he also ''out of play'' and if so, what needs to happen, (or does he need to do) for him to get back ''in play''? 

Afaik he has to wait for the next ptb. He's just out of play for that play.

[bobbruce]

3 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Downtown is slightly different again but more of an offside than the out of play.

“Down town” Any player who is in front of the kicker in general play is not permitted to advance beyond the point of the previous playthe- ball until the ball has gone past the off side players. This rule delays the movement of the off side players downfield in an attempt to encircle the ball receiver as he collects the ball.

it seems strange that the video ref can't judge on these things as it would be easy to adjudicate-maybe the thinking is that not all games have VR so would be unfair?

That’s why I put it in quotes as that was the term they were using last season for it. When I played downtown meant exactly what you’ve put being in front of the kicker and giving the receiving player ten yards. 

[Wholly Trinity]

4 hours ago, bobbruce said:

That’s why I put it in quotes as that was the term they were using last season for it. When I played downtown meant exactly what you’ve put being in front of the kicker and giving the receiving player ten yards. 

Maybe this is the issue. I've never heard commentators use the phrase "out of play". (Not that I pay much attention to them on sky). If they refer to it as 'offside' or 'downtown', then it's fair that people assume that normal rules for offside apply.

[TBone]

 In this case I thought that he was offside as he was on the wrong side at the ptb and had not retreated (to the ptb) before he advanced further up field. I seem to remember it from a TV SL game where it was explaine by a taliking head that, in such a circumstances, the player cannot be brought onside in the usual manner (e.g. the player with or having kicked the ball overtaking the offside player). But it might be just a bad dream

[Padge]

I checked the BBC website, it was a try. A try/no try is what the ref/video ref awards not what a supporter/fan/observer believes.