Hastings hopes to play for England in the World Cup

[yipyee]

6 minutes ago, yipyee said:

On 27/04/2021 at 13:54, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s the comment that Wane will favour players born in England that’s discriminatory. It was a direct quote from Wane himself. 

Its only as discrimintory as countries only picking players who play in their national comps, like England RU and Australia RL, RU and the all blacks..

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

As I have consistently said on this topic, I am aware of the eligibility rules and I am aware of what other sports do.

I am simply expressing my views as an England fan and how I feel about Australians being selected to play for England.  Just because we can select Australian citizens who have English grandparents to represent England, it doesn't mean we have to.

I love international Rugby League and I have loved the rivalry between England (Great Britain) and Australia over the years (despite the heartache) and us against them would feel less valid if we had Aussies playing for us.

I am not trying to change other people's opinions, just stating my own.

Yes, I am taking your point.  I sympathise. I don't like current rules. I qualify it a bit in current circumstances.

As it is from the point of hoping for effective home nations, the diaspora from Wales and Scotland and Ireland does not produce competitive games, unlike on southern hemisphere ones.   Indeed, even for RU 6 Nations teams they are in the need of bringing in overseas players - so frankly we are short of numbers.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

15 hours ago, Dunbar said:

As I have consistently said on this topic, I am aware of the eligibility rules and I am aware of what other sports do.

I am simply expressing my views as an England fan and how I feel about Australians being selected to play for England.  Just because we can select Australian citizens who have English grandparents to represent England, it doesn't mean we have to.

I love international Rugby League and I have loved the rivalry between England (Great Britain) and Australia over the years (despite the heartache) and us against them would feel less valid if we had Aussies playing for us.

I am not trying to change other people's opinions, just stating my own.

 

15 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The Polynesian (if I can say that) countries will select overwhelmingly from Australian born players.   But we are supposed to ignore that?

I don't like current rule but we are stuck with it.   If we look at other sports we see people selected on what are clearly bogus residency rules.

Double post

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

not sure what’s gone on here with the triple post

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

 

15 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The Polynesian (if I can say that) countries will select overwhelmingly from Australian born players.   But we are supposed to ignore that?

I don't like current rule but we are stuck with it.   If we look at other sports we see people selected on what are clearly bogus residency rules.

I thought a lot of the Tongan and Samoan were born in New Zealand rather than Australia to Tongan/Samoan parents?

[Harry Stottle]

On 30/04/2021 at 22:03, Davo5 said:

Football,RU & Cricket with far greater international profiles tend to think not.

And......

[Harry Stottle]

23 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Did you see cricket fans complaining about certain players place of birth when they won the ashes? Did you see Rugby Union fans complaining about players places of birth when they won the World Cup.

Yep I did Kev, at one time England were like the South Africa 2nd Eleven, and what was that all about with Joffrah Archer England changed the eligibility rules to select him?

And quoting Rugby Union - did you see the picture of the Japanese team lined up - just about sums up your desperation or should I say total lack of faith in our player's.

I would sooner be a gallant loser and choose 'our own' other than win with a fabricated team including nationals from other countries, I totally applaud Mr Wane's attitude, but don't forget he will be selecting player's who he considers will be best for his structure and game plans, like Mr McNamara did in '13 in choosing a part time half back instead of Danny Brough who many considered to be our best half at that time.

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

Sam Walker has been invited to be part of the Queensland State of Origin camp. He reportedly has accepted the invitation. He will not play Origin this year, but a person cannot both play State of Origin and play for England.

Has the rule been changed from when Adrian Lam played for PNG and Queensland?

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

 

I thought a lot of the Tongan and Samoan were born in New Zealand rather than Australia to Tongan/Samoan parents?

Nope, many Australian Nationals represent the Pacific Islands teams, as they also do for the Greek, Italian, Lebanon and even PNG.

[gingerjon]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep I did Kev, at one time England were like the South Africa 2nd Eleven, and what was that all about with Joffrah Archer England changed the eligibility rules to select him?

They changed the rules to those used by the ICC.

[Harry Stottle]

15 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

They changed the rules to those used by the ICC.

At a very convenient time?

[gingerjon]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

At a very convenient time?

Indeed - but the reason it could be done was because it was the ECB moving to the rest of the world's rules. They didn't just invent them and then expect to be able to play Archer.

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

40 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Nope, many Australian Nationals represent the Pacific Islands teams, as they also do for the Greek, Italian, Lebanon and even PNG.

I’m sure many are New Zealand born as opposed to the overwhelming majority Australian born. I will have a look through their squads when I’ve got a bit more time later.

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Indeed - but the reason it could be done was because it was the ECB moving to the rest of the world's rules. They didn't just invent them and then expect to be able to play Archer.

My second love after RL is Cricket Ginger, I am not comfortable at all with the selection criteria, even though cricket has done it for years from Prince Ranji over 100 years ago and D'Oliveira it doesn't make it right.

I have said this before but even as a Lancashire lad, in the years that Yorkshire continued to only select player's born within the county boundaries and finished bottom, to me ethically they were the true champions.

[Harry Stottle]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I’m sure many are New Zealand born as opposed to the overwhelming majority Australian born. I will have a look through their squads when I’ve got a bit more time later.

Yes of course there are a lot of NZ nationals in the Pacific teams, and moreso visa versa with Islanders playing for NZ something that has gone on for years and years.

[Rupert Prince]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

My second love after RL is Cricket Ginger, I am not comfortable at all with the selection criteria, even though cricket has done it for years from Prince Ranji over 100 years ago and D'Oliveira it doesn't make it right.

I have said this before but even as a Lancashire lad, in the years that Yorkshire continued to only select player's born within the county boundaries and finished bottom, to me ethically they were the true champions.

Didnt Dolly spend a number of years qualifying by residency?  This seems fair enough, but the current time is too short.

[Davo5]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

My second love after RL is Cricket Ginger, I am not comfortable at all with the selection criteria, even though cricket has done it for years from Prince Ranji over 100 years ago and D'Oliveira it doesn't make it right.

I have said this before but even as a Lancashire lad, in the years that Yorkshire continued to only select player's born within the county boundaries and finished bottom, to me ethically they were the true champions.

Wow I thought those beliefs ended on VE Day 1945

[Rupert Prince]

4 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Wow I thought those beliefs ended on VE Day 1945

Yes, VE Day.  Glad you mention it.  The commemoration of Britain saving the world twice inside 30 years at eye watering cost.  Not that anybody will give us credit for it.

[Dunbar]

The cricket counties are an in interesting analogy.

There was a time when these counties were representative teams, with sides selected to represent those counties - players chosen because they qualify through various criteria such as birth or residency or parenthood etc.

But now the counties are the equivalent of club sides in sport.  They have players from any and all nationalities to represent them.  And we are pretty much all happy to see that as these players are being recruited to play for the county as professionals.  The county side is no longer 'representative' based on who the players are but the players play 'for' that county.

I guess that my worry is that this is clearly the direction that international sport is going in.  Teams will not necessarily be selected from players that qualify through strict criteria but are recruited to play through relatively loose criteria.  They will turn into teams that are not representative - not the best of our players - but simply the best team that we can assemble based on the criteria at hand.  Some are happy with this movement, I am not.  Because I am trying to keep international sport relevant to me.

From my contributions on this thread I guess people assume me to be deeply nationalistic and patriotic.  But actually, the opposite is true.  I am far from jingoistic and see myself as more European than British (in fact I see myself as a global citizen as I have many friends from all over the world and all that borders create is wars!)

But in Rugby League I am different.  I have loved supporting the national team and feeling the highs and lows of wins and losses.  I want to see England win the World Cup and I would rather we did that without Australians playing for us, it really is very simple.

Otherwise I may as well not bother supporting England and just enjoy the rugby.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The cricket counties are an in interesting analogy.

There was a time when these counties were representative teams, with sides selected to represent those counties - players chosen because they qualify through various criteria such as birth or residency or parenthood etc.

But now the counties are the equivalent of club sides in sport.  They have players from any and all nationalities to represent them.  And we are pretty much all happy to see that as these players are being recruited to play for the county as professionals.  The county side is no longer 'representative' based on who the players are but the players play 'for' that county.

I guess that my worry is that this is clearly the direction that international sport is going in.  Teams will not necessarily be selected from players that qualify through strict criteria but are recruited to play through relatively loose criteria.  They will turn into teams that are not representative - not the best of our players - but simply the best team that we can assemble based on the criteria at hand.  Some are happy with this movement, I am not.  Because I am trying to keep international sport relevant to me.

From my contributions on this thread I guess people assume me to be deeply nationalistic and patriotic.  But actually, the opposite is true.  I am far from jingoistic and see myself as more European than British (in fact I see myself as a global citizen as I have many friends from all over the world and all that borders create is wars!)

But in Rugby League I am different.  I have loved supporting the national team and feeling the highs and lows of wins and losses.  I want to see England win the World Cup and I would rather we did that without Australians playing for us, it really is very simple.

Otherwise I may as well not bother supporting England and just enjoy the rugby.

In club rugby I accept it is a job of work, and as in any other walk of life people will find employment that will ensure they can keep a crust on the table, but within parameters to ensure our game is not flooded with imports

But when it comes to International RL, I firmly believe selection should be based on the criteria of representing your homeland, I would make exception to someone who has lived here through their formative years and been brought up through our system (prime example being Ben Stokes in Cricket).

The selection of the 3 Australians in the GB '19 Southern Hemisphere tour was a smack in the face for the lads who were not selected to go to make way for these Australians for 1 who had been in the UK for 18 months and the other 2 for less than 12 months, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that being good enough to represent the country of their birth they would not have even considered any affinity whatsoever to the land of a grandparents birth, but I can see how they would slot in with Mr Bennett as the coach, but cannot imagine for a minute how they would identify with a call of "Do it for England" as I imagine Mr Wane will deliver, representing your country should make you feel 10' tall and have your heart thumping out of your chest just lining up and singing the National anthem never mind giving every ounce you can muster when play commences. I don't believe imports can deliver the same.

 

[DavidM]

https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/england-s-jackson-hastings-decision-has-nothing-to-do-with-birthplace-or-talent

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, DavidM said:

https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/england-s-jackson-hastings-decision-has-nothing-to-do-with-birthplace-or-talent

I think Lewis Smith has been reading these pages for the content of this piece he has written, not said anything that hasn't previously been discussed on here.

[Saint Toppy]

19 hours ago, DavidM said:

https://www.thesportsman.com/articles/england-s-jackson-hastings-decision-has-nothing-to-do-with-birthplace-or-talent

Hastings hasn't made a choice, he's only put his hand up for England because he won't get picked for Australia. He's only doing it because he wont get to play in the WC otherwise.

Just like him coming to SL was only because he had no other options in the NRL, not a choice, it was his only option.

He hasn't even committed to the UK permanently as shown by him taking the first available NRL option to head back down under for 2022.

Well done for Wayne in not picking him as he's shown no commitment at all, all his decisions relating to England and SL have been because he had no other options at the time.

Think back to previous overseas players, ones like Maurie Fa'Asavalu. He had the option of picking England or Samoa, but picked England and took British citizenship. I'm OK with overseas players playing for England if they show commitment & pride in the jersey, but not ones who pick it just because they have no other options. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

Well said Jon Wells

 

“Hastings' quality should not be overlooked on the basis of their birthplace alone. 

That is pretty unambiguous - Jackson Hastings is eligible to play for England under the  eligibility rules and we know this because Hastings has already been selected using those rules when he played for Great Britain on the 2019 Lions tour under previous coach Wayne Bennett.

In my opinion, there are two valid points of discussion when looking at international selection, and neither have anything to do with birthplace.”

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/12196/12294327/jon-wells-englands-jackson-hastings-conundrum

[Rupert Prince]

On 02/05/2021 at 11:38, Dunbar said:

The cricket counties are an in interesting analogy.

There was a time when these counties were representative teams, with sides selected to represent those counties - players chosen because they qualify through various criteria such as birth or residency or parenthood etc.

But now the counties are the equivalent of club sides in sport.  They have players from any and all nationalities to represent them.  And we are pretty much all happy to see that as these players are being recruited to play for the county as professionals.  The county side is no longer 'representative' based on who the players are but the players play 'for' that county.

I guess that my worry is that this is clearly the direction that international sport is going in.  Teams will not necessarily be selected from players that qualify through strict criteria but are recruited to play through relatively loose criteria.  They will turn into teams that are not representative - not the best of our players - but simply the best team that we can assemble based on the criteria at hand.  Some are happy with this movement, I am not.  Because I am trying to keep international sport relevant to me.

From my contributions on this thread I guess people assume me to be deeply nationalistic and patriotic.  But actually, the opposite is true.  I am far from jingoistic and see myself as more European than British (in fact I see myself as a global citizen as I have many friends from all over the world and all that borders create is wars!)

But in Rugby League I am different.  I have loved supporting the national team and feeling the highs and lows of wins and losses.  I want to see England win the World Cup and I would rather we did that without Australians playing for us, it really is very simple.

Otherwise I may as well not bother supporting England and just enjoy the rugby.

You want your cake and eat it.