Hastings hopes to play for England in the World Cup

[Dunbar]

2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Every other sport has similar International eligibility rules, even in Rugby League it’s only England that doesn’t solely pick their squad on a players ability. Not only do I think it’s wrong, I think it’s only a matter of time before a group of players take a discrimination case to court, they have direct quotes from the England head coach, that’s fairly compelling.

Can I ask a question.  And this is genuine, I have no ulterior motive, I am simply trying to understand our different thinking.

If, for example, England won the World Cup in November with George Williams and Jonny Lomax in the halves or if England won the World Cup with Jackson Hastings and Blake Austin... would they feel the same to you, would neither one nor the other be a better feeling or be a more satisfying win?

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

47 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Can I ask a question.  And this is genuine, I have no ulterior motive, I am simply trying to understand our different thinking.

If, for example, England won the World Cup in November with George Williams and Jonny Lomax in the halves or if England won the World Cup with Jackson Hastings and Blake Austin... would they feel the same to you, would neither one nor the other be a better feeling or be a more satisfying win?

If England win the World Cup that would be brilliant. Every country in every sport has players that were not born in the country, we have International eligibility rules that are the same for every country.

Did you see cricket fans complaining about certain players place of birth when they won the ashes? Did you see Rugby Union fans complaining about players places of birth when they won the World Cup. No. It’s not an issue for me and I’d say it’s not an issue for 90% + of the population. If someone wants to represent England, are qualified to represent England, live in England and good enough to play for England, they should be selected.

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If England win the World Cup that would be brilliant. Every country in every sport has players that were not born in the country, we have International eligibility rules that are the same for every country.

Did you see cricket fans complaining about certain players place of birth when they won the ashes? Did you see Rugby Union fans complaining about players places of birth when they won the World Cup. No. It’s not an issue for me and I’d say it’s not an issue for 90% + of the population. If someone wants to represent England, are qualified to represent England, live in England and good enough to play for England, they should be selected.

Thanks for the reply.

Firstly, I am not interested in what other sports do this is a Rugby League forum.

Secondly, yes I agree, England winning the World Cup would be brilliant.

So, I accept that it would not change your feelings if England won the World Cup with, say, Hastings and Austin in the side.

Can you see my point of view though, that, all things being equal, I would rather see England win without playing Australians in the team?

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Thanks for the reply.

Firstly, I am not interested in what other sports do this is a Rugby League forum.

Secondly, yes I agree, England winning the World Cup would be brilliant.

So, I accept that it would not change your feelings if England won the World Cup with, say, Hastings and Austin in the side.

Can you see my point of view though, that, all things being equal, I would rather see England win without playing Australians in the team?

I can’t, if England won the World Cup and anyone can turn it into a negative of certain players were born in certain places I think that’d be very sad. If someone qualifies to play for England and England are the country they put their hand up to represent it’s not for others to judge whether or not they are English enough, just as you couldn’t place a job advert for English born applicants only. We have International eligibility rules that are clear cut, no opinion is needed whether a player should be allowed to represent beyond that.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I can’t, if England won the World Cup and anyone can turn it into a negative of certain players were born in certain places I think that’d be very sad. If someone qualifies to play for England and England are the country they put their hand up to represent it’s not for others to judge whether or not they are English enough, just as you couldn’t place a job advert for English born applicants only. We have International eligibility rules that are clear cut, no option is needed whether a player should be allowed to represent beyond that.

OK.  I have asked you if you can see my point of view - not agree with it but accept it.

And you said you cannot.  So I guess there is nowhere else for us to go with this one. 

[Allora]

22 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I can’t, if England won the World Cup and anyone can turn it into a negative of certain players were born in certain places I think that’d be very sad. If someone qualifies to play for England and England are the country they put their hand up to represent it’s not for others to judge whether or not they are English enough, just as you couldn’t place a job advert for English born applicants only. We have International eligibility rules that are clear cut, no opinion is needed whether a player should be allowed to represent beyond that.

Hoping to win with players connected through their Grandparents does not work for me.

 

[DavidM]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Can I ask a question.  And this is genuine, I have no ulterior motive, I am simply trying to understand our different thinking.

If, for example, England won the World Cup in November with George Williams and Jonny Lomax in the halves or if England won the World Cup with Jackson Hastings and Blake Austin... would they feel the same to you, would neither one nor the other be a better feeling or be a more satisfying win?

Yes absolutely . If we are winning the WC with guys giving their all and performing to a collective standard that takes  use to that great achievement then I wouldn’t be looking at anyone’s  birth certificate or background . I’m literally not bothered when guys pull on the jersey . As long as we’ve  picked the best we can and we win then that’s all I’m looking at . Winning the cricket WC was one of the best experiences as a sports fan I’ve had , and five of that squad were from all over the place . Whatever was said before , noone really bothered after that 

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Yes absolutely . If we are winning the WC with guys giving their all and performing to a collective standard that takes  use to that great achievement then I wouldn’t be looking at anyone’s  birth certificate or background . I’m literally not bothered when guys pull on the jersey . As long as we’ve  picked the best we can and we win then that’s all I’m looking at . Winning the cricket WC was one of the best experiences as a sports fan I’ve had , and five of that squad were from all over the place . Whatever was said before , noone really bothered after that 

I absolutely accept that point of view.

For myself though, and I realise I am in a very small minority, I genuinely don't see the point of international sport at all if all we are going to do is see players dragged in from all corners of the globe to represent your side.

I will be delighted to England win the World Cup in November and if I am being honest, I would also be delighted if we won with Jackson Hastings in the side... as that would be sensational for Rugby League in this country. 

But from a personal perspective it just wouldn't feel as good. As I have said before, I have waited an awful long time for England or Great Britain to taste success and it wouldn't taste as good if that win came because we decided to pick Australians.

[AB90]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I absolutely accept that point of view.

For myself though, and I realise I am in a very small minority, I genuinely don't see the point of international sport at all if all we are going to do is see players dragged in from all corners of the globe to represent your side.

I will be delighted to England win the World Cup in November and if I am being honest, I would also be delighted if we won with Jackson Hastings in the side... as that would be sensational for Rugby League in this country. 

But from a personal perspective it just wouldn't feel as good. As I have said before, I have waited an awful long time for England or Great Britain to taste success and it wouldn't taste as good if that win came because we decided to pick Australians.

Quick question Dunbar - how do you feel about the Pacific Island teams?

The Tongan side that beat both GB and Aus in 2019 only had one player that was born in Tonga (Konrad Hurrell). 16 of the 17 players were born and raised in either Sydney or Auckland.

Not trying to prove a point, but just curious as to your opinion.

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, AB90 said:

Quick question Dunbar - how do you feel about the Pacific Island teams?

The Tongan side that beat both GB and Aus in 2019 only had one player that was born in Tonga (Konrad Hurrell). 16 of the 17 players were born and raised in either Sydney or Auckland.

Not trying to prove a point, but just curious as to your opinion.

That is a very fair point but I think that my feelings can be summed up like this.

I am very happy with the international eligibility rules and if second and third generation Pacific Islanders choose to play for the their nation of heritage then I am ok with that.  In fact, I recognize it is great for the sport overall as it makes teams like Tonga, Samoa and Fiji stronger which is great for the sport overall.

But I am not speaking as a fan of Tonga, I am speaking as a fan of England.  I am not saying the rules are wrong, I am saying what I would prefer to see as an England Rugby League fan.

Every time I walked away from a Rugby League ground feeling the heartache of seeing Great Britain or England lose to Australia - from 1986 to today - I vowed to go back the next time as the day we won was going to feel so special.  But, hand on heart, that win wouldn't be as special if got the win because we selected Australian players to make us stronger.

I am a liberal in every sense of the word and in my business and personal life I wouldn't accept discrimination.  But isn't international sport discrimination by definition?  It has been around for hundreds of years and it is the best of our players vs. the best of yours to see which country is best at Rugby League.  

And I understand these things are complicated.  I am entirely comfortable with Mikolaj Oledzki playing for England.  I don't know him but he has lived here since he was 13 and I am very sure that he considers England to be his home and it doesn't look like he has any plans to leave.

And then we have Jackson Hastings.  He has been great for Super League for the last few years but he is already signed to play for Wests Tigers next year and he may never set foot in this country again.

There is no nuance here.  Jackson Hastings is an Australian.  He was born in Australia to Australians parents, lived the majority of his life in Australia and will go back to Australia at the end of this season.  And while he may qualify for England, he is an Australian, and as an England Rugby League fan I am just not keen on Australians being selected to play for England.

This has nothing to do with Hastings as a person or the club he plays for (my home town club) and it would be the same if any Australian was selected to play for England through the grandparent rule.  I accept that others have different opinions but these are mine.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Can I ask a question.  And this is genuine, I have no ulterior motive, I am simply trying to understand our different thinking.

If, for example, England won the World Cup in November with George Williams and Jonny Lomax in the halves or if England won the World Cup with Jackson Hastings and Blake Austin... would they feel the same to you, would neither one nor the other be a better feeling or be a more satisfying win?

I'd fel exactly the same personally 

I'd prefer they weren't interviewed on the telly after. 

[Davo5]

Just pick the best eligible players,it happens in every other major sport with no complaints other than a few individuals with a perceived higher moral compass  and detracts nothing from the achievement.

[Dunbar]

9 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Just pick the best eligible players,it happens in every other major sport with no complaints other than a few individuals with a perceived higher moral compass  and detracts nothing from the achievement.

How many Australians in the side would detract from the achievement of England winning the World up?

To take an extreme example.  If England selected 17 Australian citizens with English grandparents to play in the World Cup final and England won, would that detract from the achievement?

[Davo5]

4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

How many Australians in the side would detract from the achievement of England winning the World up?

To take an extreme example.  If England selected 17 Australian citizens with English grandparents to play in the World Cup final and England won, would that detract from the achievement?

I really don’t care,your the one with the problem and introducing ridiculous scenarios.

[Manfred Mann]

On 27/04/2021 at 03:56, Scubby said:

Does that mean Wane is happy to pick Sam Walker then? Leeds lad.

Sam Walker has been invited to be part of the Queensland State of Origin camp. He reportedly has accepted the invitation. He will not play Origin this year, but a person cannot both play State of Origin and play for England.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Davo5 said:

I really don’t care,your the one with the problem and introducing ridiculous scenarios.

You see, that's the problem isn't it.  If we did pick 17 Australians to represent England then it would be farcical and would clearly detract from the achievement of England winning the World Cup.

So when does the achievement not become detracted... when we have 15 Australians, or 10 or 5 in the side?

My point is that selecting Australians to help us win the World Cup, however many, does detract from the achievement... in fact you have perfectly summarized my position on the matter.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

You see, that's the problem isn't it.  If we did pick 17 Australians to represent England then it would be farcical and would clearly detract from the achievement of England winning the World Cup.

So when does the achievement not become detracted... when we have 15 Australians, or 10 or 5 in the side?

My point is that selecting Australians to help us win the World Cup, however many, does detract from the achievement... in fact you have perfectly summarized my position on the matter.

I don't know who we are going to pick that is going to get us even close to the World Cup. Looking at the huge number of outstanding NRL players Tonga, Fiji and Samoa can select from now we are going to do well the make the semis.

If we don't beat Samoa in that opening game then we would play Tonga in the QF. I really don't see where the danger comes from in the halves and outside backs. Shaun Wane has his work cut out for sure.

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

I don't know who we are going to pick that is going to get us even close to the World Cup. Looking at the huge number of outstanding NRL players Tonga, Fiji and Samoa can select from now we are going to do well the make the semis.

If we don't beat Samoa in that opening game then we would play Tonga in the QF. I really don't see where the danger comes from in the halves and outside backs. Shaun Wane has his work cut out for sure.

Don’t worry , we’ll beat Samoa and push on from there . 

[Dunbar]

@Davo5

I know that you have responded with a laughing emoji but I am making a serious point.

Question: if England selected 17 Australians with English grandparents to play in a World Cup final and win would it detract the achievement of England winning the compeition? Yes, or no?

If the answer to that is no, you don't think it detracts from the achievement then fair enough.

But if the answer is yes then we are really looking at a measure of tolerance aren't we.  I personally feel that selecting any Australians detracts from the achievement of England winning a match or a tournament... but what would your tolerance be, how many Aussies in the side would you be comfortable with?

[Scubby]

16 minutes ago, DavidM said:

Don’t worry , we’ll beat Samoa and push on from there . 

It is going to be a huge game. We cannot afford a slow start.

[bobbruce]

3 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

Sam Walker has been invited to be part of the Queensland State of Origin camp. He reportedly has accepted the invitation. He will not play Origin this year, but a person cannot both play State of Origin and play for England.

Yes they can

[Rupert Prince]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

@Davo5

I know that you have responded with a laughing emoji but I am making a serious point.

Question: if England selected 17 Australians with English grandparents to play in a World Cup final and win would it detract the achievement of England winning the compeition? Yes, or no?

If the answer to that is no, you don't think it detracts from the achievement then fair enough.

But if the answer is yes then we are really looking at a measure of tolerance aren't we.  I personally feel that selecting any Australians detracts from the achievement of England winning a match or a tournament... but what would your tolerance be, how many Aussies in the side would you be comfortable with?

The Polynesian (if I can say that) countries will select overwhelmingly from Australian born players.   But we are supposed to ignore that?

I don't like current rule but we are stuck with it.   If we look at other sports we see people selected on what are clearly bogus residency rules.

Hastings does not have residency.  And he is going back to Australia.  I would support him and our game if he was selected, because he has previously played for us.  The die was cast. But otherwise his link is tenuous.  

And irrespective of international rules, what is to stop us setting our own more prescriptive rules that suit us?

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said:

The Polynesian (if I can say that) countries will select overwhelmingly from Australian born players.   But we are supposed to ignore that?

I don't like current rule but we are stuck with it.   If we look at other sports we see people selected on what are clearly bogus residency rules.

Hastings does not have residency.  And he is going back to Australia.  I would support him and our game if he was selected, because he has previously played for us.  The die was cast. But otherwise his link is tenuous.  

And irrespective of international rules, what is to stop us setting our own more prescriptive rules that suit us?

As I have consistently said on this topic, I am aware of the eligibility rules and I am aware of what other sports do.

I am simply expressing my views as an England fan and how I feel about Australians being selected to play for England.  Just because we can select Australian citizens who have English grandparents to represent England, it doesn't mean we have to.

I love international Rugby League and I have loved the rivalry between England (Great Britain) and Australia over the years (despite the heartache) and us against them would feel less valid if we had Aussies playing for us.

I am not trying to change other people's opinions, just stating my own.

[Scubby]

7 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

As I have consistently said on this topic, I am aware of the eligibility rules and I am aware of what other sports do.

I am simply expressing my views as an England fan and how I feel about Australians being selected to play for England.  Just because we can select Australian citizens who have English grandparents to represent England, it doesn't mean we have to.

I love international Rugby League and I have loved the rivalry between England (Great Britain) and Australia over the years (despite the heartache) and us against them would feel less valid if we had Aussies playing for us.

I am not trying to change other people's opinions, just stating my own.

It is a grey area but there is arguably a difference between a Polynesian family that has moved to Oz 15 years ago and the kids have grown up as Samoan Aussies etc. compared with someone like Chris McQueen suddenly finding out they have a single grandparent from Stoke at the age of 28.

[yipyee]

On 27/04/2021 at 13:54, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s the comment that Wane will favour players born in England that’s discriminatory. It was a direct quote from Wane himself.