Alleged racism

[Jim Prendle]

8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I work as a solicitor and 100% innocent people/parties don't "say nothing". Even if they say very little they at least will say in public they refute the allegations - if only to just have it "out there".

Then you should know better than to jump to conclusions based using on what you think has happened.

In fact, considering your occupation, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking that silence equals guilt.

[Jim Prendle]

26 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I think it’s more important to worry about actual events than made up ones that’s all. 

I agree, so until we know that something has happened, why don’t we all stop jumping to conclusions?

[andyscoot]

3 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

what happened to "sticks and stones"? pathetic society we are in now

These days, if you say you're English you'll be arrested and thrown in jail.

It's mad. Despite all this talk of a changing society and changing definitions of racism I've managed to live all my life without ever being accused of racism.

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

what happened to "sticks and stones"? pathetic society we are in now

Have a chat with State of Mind or similar organisations and find out how harmful words can be to individuals. Don’t dismiss this as not a problem. 

[Jim Prendle]

1 minute ago, Saint 1 said:

Out of curiosity, the people talking about how nothing is proven, what is your interpretation of last night?:

- Clubb said it, Savelio is telling the truth 

- Clubb did not say it, Savelio knowingly made it up

- Clubb did not say it, Savelio imagined himself being racially abused

It has to be one of the three, so which is it? 

 

 

 

 

Nobody knows yet, that’s the point.

Let the process complete and then we will find out. 

[graveyard johnny]

there was one muslim kid and one sikh kid in our school 40 years ago - i was friends with them both- racism was never an issue or even thought about as far as i remember- today its like setting up dominos just so you can knock them down - get a grip - its boring 

[Spidey]

5 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

You know that’s simply not the case though, so let’s not insult anyone’s intelligence. There are umpteen minutiae that are now classed as racism that ensure it’s not only a moveable feast but a never ending one - and why would we want to see an end to it when so many people rely on it for a career?

Also, it was never ok to be racist, certainly not in my lifetime. However, the past is busily being rewritten.
 

 

I disagree. I think it’s really easy not to be racist, unless you don’t want to be. 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Nobody knows yet, that’s the point.

Let the process complete and then we will find out. 

Quite clearly somebody knows, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue!

[Cheshire Setter]

24 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

Out of curiosity, the people talking about how nothing is proven, what is your interpretation of last night?:

- Clubb said it, Savelio is telling the truth 

- Clubb did not say it, Savelio knowingly made it up

- Clubb did not say it, Savelio imagined himself being racially abused

It has to be one of the three, so which is it? 

 

 

 

 

I'm not a betting man, but if I had to put money on it I'd guess that a disparaging comment was made in the heat of the moment.   A comment that is racist even if the player who said is not really a racist himself, and in fact works with lots of Polynesians from day to day without any reports of problems.

However, if it did occur he's left the RFL no choice but to make an example of him.   The sport simply can't afford any bad press and be seen to be taking anything less than the most serious view on the matter.

It's not the first time casual racism has popped up.    Wasn't it Andrew Johns who was making a passionate dressing-room speech and ended up using the unholiest of racial no-no terms on Greg Inglis?   Johns I'm sure isn't a racist but he fell into the trap of not thinking about using terms that he'd probably grown up around in a heat-of-the-moment outburst.   He was very lucky it didn't happen in today's world.

And if you think you're all infallible on this issue no matter what race, colour, gender, sexual orientation or religion you are, I'll bet you would fall into the same trap during a g-word outburst if you were arguing with some travellers who had just set up camp in your back garden.   But that technically would also get you in trouble, no? 

[Mr Plow]

19 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

Out of curiosity, the people talking about how nothing is proven, what is your interpretation of last night?:

- Clubb said it, Savelio is telling the truth 

- Clubb did not say it, Savelio knowingly made it up

- Clubb did not say it, Savelio imagined himself being racially abused

It has to be one of the three, so which is it? 

 

 

 

 

They say there’s no smoke without fire. You’re innocent until proven guilty but it would be a strange thing to make up

[Maximus Decimus]

41 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I don’t think the goalposts are being moved on what is racist, society used to accept racists things being said, now it’s saying it not alright

I think there has been a change in the goalposts and continues to be so. For instance, a comment was generally only seen to be racist if it was a negative comment about race, now a comment can be construed as racist regardless of intent. For instance, somebody making a comment about black people being better singers or faster wouldn't have been seen as racist whereas now it could be. It's similar to what constitutes a racist, it used to be someone who hated people of other races, now you can be a racist and not even know it. 

With regards to the alleged comment, if he said it it's racist by any definition young or old. 

[Tommygilf]

20 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Then you should know better than to jump to conclusions based using on what you think has happened.

In fact, considering your occupation, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking that silence equals guilt.

Considering my occupation I would say he's been told "keep quiet, say nothing, you'll only make it worse" because he'll either not have a well written apology yet or will publicly deny something that is later proven to be fact. By saying nothing at all he can't say anything wrong - see Prince Andrew's interview for all the evidence any person accused of anything ever needs for that! I don't think you have to be a detective to work that out, its the same advice plenty of lawyers would give.

Like I said, I have experienced the position Wigan fans are in with my football club last year. The player in question (who by the similar reaction has usually told the club by this point that the allegations at least have some substance) is kept away from the spotlight. Its not nice all round and will leave a sour taste.

[Mr Plow]

9 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

there was one muslim kid and one sikh kid in our school 40 years ago - i was friends with them both- racism was never an issue or even thought about as far as i remember- today its like setting up dominos just so you can knock them down - get a grip - its boring 

Things have changed in those 40 years. Society moves on mostly for the better. I wouldn’t immediately dismiss anyone who says they’ve been racially abused. 
 

Discrimination is not black and white there lots of grey especially when you take in to consideration context although that does not always make it acceptable. But like it can be complicated. 
 

I would never single out someone’s race, gender, sexuality to abuse them, I wouldn’t expect anyone to do that to me no matter how bothered I was by it

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

there was one muslim kid and one sikh kid in our school 40 years ago - i was friends with them both- racism was never an issue or even thought about as far as i remember- today its like setting up dominos just so you can knock them down - get a grip - its boring 

On the one hand, I completely understand what you're saying - a lot of people are in the industry of being outraged. And I do think there are huge flaws with the sort of identity politics some people want to advocate these days (its an ideological inheritance of the utterly failed class politics of the far left).

On the other, if someone then had said they were being treated differently because of xyz then they'd have either been totally ignored or laughed out of the room. Some things just aren't acceptable.

[Maximus Decimus]

3 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

They say there’s no smoke without fire. You’re innocent until proven guilty but it would be a strange thing to make up

Actually it wouldn't be that strange to make up. When I was at high school, one of the girls made up an allegation about a male teacher that she didn't like. He was suspended and she eventually admitted that she made it up. At the time, the exact same thing would apply.

Everybody knows that one of the most damaging things you can say about somebody is that they're racist. This is inevitably going to result in examples where people abuse that power against people they don't like. That's human nature. It wouldn't be beyond the realms that somebody would choose to make an allegation like this to try and destroy a person that they don't like. You could make the argument that in the current climate it would a strange thing to say knowing the consequences it would have.

That's not to say that it is a 50/50, but it's not certainly beyond the realms of plausibility. Clubb's silence is certainly strange if it was made up, but then again they might be holding off until they feel they have proof because of the sensitive nature of the subject matter. 

[graveyard johnny]

issues have been made and implanted in to weak brains to manifest where they never existed before - thats issues for yer

[Maximus Decimus]

6 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Well let’s see if you still think that in a few years. All the best. 
Oh and by virtue of being white (assuming you are) you’re already racist according to many so y’know....extra good luck with not being racist. 

I line manage a lad who is of West African descent. We get on really well but if we didn't and he had a grievance, in the current climate it would be pretty easy to end up with an accusation of racism IMO. 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Actually it wouldn't be that strange to make up. When I was at high school, one of the girls made up an allegation about a male teacher that she didn't like. He was suspended and she eventually admitted that she made it up. At the time, the exact same thing would apply.

Everybody knows that one of the most damaging things you can say about somebody is that they're racist. This is inevitably going to result in examples where people abuse that power against people they don't like. That's human nature. It wouldn't be beyond the realms that somebody would choose to make an allegation like this to try and destroy a person that they don't like. You could make the argument that in the current climate it would a strange thing to say knowing the consequences it would have.

That's not to say that it is a 50/50, but it's not certainly beyond the realms of plausibility. Clubb's silence is certainly strange if it was made up, but then again they might be holding off until they feel they have proof because of the sensitive nature of the subject matter. 

I think your last paragraph pretty much epitomises the issue now. If you were accused of something you hadn't done, you'd refute it as soon as possible or seek to clarify with the accuser that you didn't say/do that, both say sorry for the misunderstanding, and then move on.

This feels more like damage limitation rather than name clearance.

[Maximus Decimus]

5 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Actually it wouldn't be that strange to make up. When I was at high school, one of the girls made up an allegation about a male teacher that she didn't like. He was suspended and she eventually admitted that she made it up. At the time, the exact same thing would apply.

Everybody knows that one of the most damaging things you can say about somebody is that they're racist. This is inevitably going to result in examples where people abuse that power against people they don't like. That's human nature. It wouldn't be beyond the realms that somebody would choose to make an allegation like this to try and destroy a person that they don't like. You could make the argument that in the current climate it would a strange thing to say from Clubb knowing the consequences it would have.

That's not to say that it is a 50/50, but it's not certainly beyond the realms of plausibility. Clubb's silence is certainly strange if it was made up, but then again they might be holding off until they feel they have proof because of the sensitive nature of the subject matter. 

 

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

issues have been made and implanted in to weak brains to manifest where they never existed before - thats issues for yer

True of almost all aspects of politics that to be fair

[DavidM]

26 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I disagree. I think it’s really easy not to be racist, unless you don’t want to be. 

But you can / do get called a racist when your not as well 

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Well let’s see if you still think that in a few years. All the best. 
Oh and by virtue of being white (assuming you are) you’re already racist according to many so y’know....extra good luck with not being racist. 

To be fair though, most of those people who think that are morons. Left wing versions of flat earthers

[Maximus Decimus]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I think your last paragraph pretty much epitomises the issue now. If you were accused of something you hadn't done, you'd refute it as soon as possible or seek to clarify with the accuser that you didn't say/do that, both say sorry for the misunderstanding, and then move on.

This feels more like damage limitation rather than name clearance.

I don't necessarily agree in that it is so sensitive that they might be hoping a microphone clears it up beyond recognition before they event comment on it. Wigan might have told him to so that they are not put in an awkward position.

Or...he's guilty and not wanting to incriminate himself further. My gut says that he said it, but I'm just hoping that there is a recording for clarity.

[LeytherRob]

33 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

there was one muslim kid and one sikh kid in our school 40 years ago - i was friends with them both- racism was never an issue or even thought about as far as i remember- today its like setting up dominos just so you can knock them down - get a grip - its boring 

Good to know that because of your limited experience you've been able to comprehensively prove racism doesn't exist. Someone best call the RFL and tell them not to waste their time then.

[Jim Prendle]

36 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Quite clearly somebody knows, otherwise there wouldn't be an issue!

Yet again our resident Legal expert is happy to ignore the lack of available evidence, in order to facilitate his personal narrative.

I insist you tell us which solicitor you work for, so that we can all avoid it.