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Alleged racism


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8 minutes ago, andyscoot said:

That's not how court works at all.

Claimant presents their case and evidence. Defendant does the same. Both parties are cross examined and a judge makes a decision on the likelihood that something happened.

In your imagined scenario, why are you before a judge in a civil hearing?

I have been accused of the unforgivable crime of being “too nice”.

 

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5 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

I have been accused of the unforgivable crime of being “too nice”.

 

Whatever that means, you have nonetheless confirmed it - Crime.

Criminal law is not judged on the same burden of proof, so you can relax. You won't be accused of a crime and be convicted based on a reaction.

The world isn't going mad and it's all going to be okay.

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Just now, andyscoot said:

Whatever that means, you have nonetheless confirmed it - Crime.

Criminal law is not judged on the same burden of proof, so you can relax. You won't be accused of a crime and be convicted based on a reaction.

The world isn't going mad and it's all going to be okay.

Thanks.

I also agree that the world isn’t going mad, it already went mad a few years ago.

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8 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

You’re just making stuff up now, rather like your claims about racism/ignorance. Not an unusual tactic from certain quarters. Second post too? you couldn’t even wait and try to pretend to be balanced. 

This is heading for the political board, which I certainly don’t partake in, so might as well call it a draw. 

Which quarter would that be then? One which doesn't thinks it's acceptable to refer to someone's heritage as an insult? Guilty as charged.

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20 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

I've no idea. If you tell me what your other evidence is, I will judge it on it's merits.

In sort if chronological order.

There was clearly a coming together between the two with some afters, including verbals, the game generally at that point was heated to say the least. That's contextual reference which doesn't make something like the alleged case less likely, quite the opposite in my experience.

Savelio reports it. That in itself is a significant moment as the point of allegation. Its allegedly significant enough for Savelio to want to pause his involvement in the game for.

Clubb does not re-emerge after being substituted closely following the incident. Not even for full time, which is odd.

Savelio releases a statement clarifying his postion publicly. The "why would I make this up" section is particularly compelling as it speaks to the previous unreported occasions Savelio and other Polynesian/Melanesian etc. players had received this sort of abuse but felt unable to report it at the time. On a purely subjective note it sounds believable.

Both Hull and Wigan release statements condemning racism. 

Wigan state no more will be said by them or their players on the matter. That's legal translate for "say nothing therefore say nothing incriminating".

Clubb is suspended by Wigan earlier today.

Clubb still to the best of my knowledge has not responded publicly or released a statement.

Circumstantially, the balance of probability is not in Clubb's favour on that, as I said it sounds believable. I suspect he will be advised to cooperate with the enquiry whilst saying as little as possible to incriminate himself. As Savelio in his own statement acknowledged without video or microphone evidence it will be difficult to prove, I would expect Clubb has been advised similar.

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36 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

In other news, a black actor, who I remember was in Dr Who and has been very popular in many other productions, has been accused of multiple sexual allegations by up to 20 women.

He says he "vehemently" denies all of them.   This had not stopped ITV immediately not showing the last episode of his latest show ( but perversely they will show it on internet !!). And SKY have piped up and stopped production of any of his productions.

Now remind me was it innocent until proven guilty?  If he is telling the truth then he will now have to wait for an age to clear his name but be smeared for fun by all and sundry in the meantime. 

Why a "black actor"?

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20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Circumstantially, the balance of probability is not in Clubb's favour on that, as I said it sounds believable. I suspect he will be advised to cooperate with the enquiry whilst saying as little as possible to incriminate himself. As Savelio in his own statement acknowledged without video or microphone evidence it will be difficult to prove, I would expect Clubb has been advised similar.

Does he need video or sound recording of it. If you watch the Rangers player in a Europa league game when the opposition players cups his hand and speaks to the player so no one else could lip read or hear is comment, the player reacted to his comment. But the player was found guilty regardless of no audio or visual evidence. 

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20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

In sort if chronological order.

There was clearly a coming together between the two with some afters, including verbals, the game generally at that point was heated to say the least. That's contextual reference which doesn't make something like the alleged case less likely, quite the opposite in my experience.

Savelio reports it. That in itself is a significant moment as the point of allegation. Its allegedly significant enough for Savelio to want to pause his involvement in the game for.

Clubb does not re-emerge after being substituted closely following the incident. Not even for full time, which is odd.

Savelio releases a statement clarifying his postion publicly. The "why would I make this up" section is particularly compelling as it speaks to the previous unreported occasions Savelio and other Polynesian/Melanesian etc. players had received this sort of abuse but felt unable to report it at the time. On a purely subjective note it sounds believable.

Both Hull and Wigan release statements condemning racism. 

Wigan state no more will be said by them or their players on the matter. That's legal translate for "say nothing therefore say nothing incriminating".

Clubb is suspended by Wigan earlier today.

Clubb still to the best of my knowledge has not responded publicly or released a statement.

Circumstantially, the balance of probability is not in Clubb's favour on that, as I said it sounds believable. I suspect he will be advised to cooperate with the enquiry whilst saying as little as possible to incriminate himself. As Savelio in his own statement acknowledged without video or microphone evidence it will be difficult to prove, I would expect Clubb has been advised similar.

Sorry, but all that doesn’t prove a damn thing.

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28 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said:

Thanks.

I also agree that the world isn’t going mad, it already went mad a few years ago.

Always makes me laugh when people say the worlds gone or going mad - its less than 100 years ago that people were put in gas chambers for being Jewish, the world has been much madder than it is now.

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22 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

Who seem to have a hell of a lot of influence in places like Universities and corporations. Not bad for a bunch of morons. 

I was at one of those unis and genuinely I think its overstated - the loudest obviously make the most noise.

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59 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

In other news, a black actor, who I remember was in Dr Who and has been very popular in many other productions, has been accused of multiple sexual allegations by up to 20 women.

He says he "vehemently" denies all of them.   This had not stopped ITV immediately not showing the last episode of his latest show ( but perversely they will show it on internet !!). And SKY have piped up and stopped production of any of his productions.

Now remind me was it innocent until proven guilty?  If he is telling the truth then he will now have to wait for an age to clear his name but be smeared for fun by all and sundry in the meantime. 

I agree that is a problem with modern society. 

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11 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Does he need video or sound recording of it. If you watch the Rangers player in a Europa league game when the opposition players cups his hand and speaks to the player so no one else could lip read or hear is comment, the player reacted to his comment. But the player was found guilty regardless of no audio or visual evidence. 

Was he? 

Submissions were sent in by Rangers which included eye witness accounts which heard what was said and based solely on watching the video there definitely was something not very pleasant said 

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1 minute ago, LeeF said:

Was he? 

Submissions were sent in by Rangers which included eye witness accounts which heard what was said and based solely on watching the video there definitely was something not very pleasant said 

I don't disagree but with balance of probability you would look at the reaction and you believe that what was said wasn't happy birthday. 

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12 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Does he need video or sound recording of it. If you watch the Rangers player in a Europa league game when the opposition players cups his hand and speaks to the player so no one else could lip read or hear is comment, the player reacted to his comment. But the player was found guilty regardless of no audio or visual evidence. 

Yeah I suppose that is a good direct comparison.

The reason UEFA "got" Kudela is because his defence was, being kind, an unbelievable joke. This is what people looking for "proof" or "truth" need to understand - in these situations people make judgement calls based on the available evidence and what is the most believable story.

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2 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I don't disagree but with balance of probability you would look at the reaction and you believe that what was said wasn't happy birthday. 

Definitely. Add in the other witnesses and I am certain that UEFA reached the correct decision albeit the length of the ban is another matter

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6 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

It’s grown considerably in the last few years and especially in the last 12 months.

It really hasn’t. No matter what the Free Speech Union claim.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah I suppose that is a good direct comparison.

The reason UEFA "got" Kudela is because his defence was, being kind, an unbelievable joke. This is what people looking for "proof" or "truth" need to understand - in these situations people make judgement calls based on the available evidence and what is the most believable story.

The George Flanagan testicle attack last month is a good example of this.

The two players involved had differing versions of events (Flanagan denying he had done anything at all) and the RFL made a judgement call - If I remember correctly they said something along the lines of Jack Bussey's version of events was more believable - there was no evidence either way.

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13 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

It’s grown considerably in the last few years and especially in the last 12 months.

Having been at a Russell group Uni with notoriously liberal policies between 2016 to late last year I will stand by my ascertation that this is massively overblown. Most students couldn't care less.

I know its a different issue but take the littering of parks in student areas whenever the sun is out. The narrative would have you believe that all students are vegan ecowarriors who love the planet more than themselves and want to join Extinction Rebellion - yet the reality is, and I really do dislike this term, the silent majority just don't care that much. Rather than active support for causes, I think there is far more student apathy towards most issues and therefore little in the way of opposition to the passionately loud, and disproportionately left wing, voices on campus. Gender Neutral toilets, couldn't care less.

I should qualify this by saying I was a member of the Uni Labour Society, helped with the launch parties of the feminist magazine a few of my mates were committee members on, studied History (a subject disproportionately left leaning in academia) and was friends with people who occasionally thought Nigel Farage was going a bit soft or stood for local council elections for the Tory party. I'm perfectly capable of being friends with most people, agreeing to disagree on certain issues. I'm of an age where plenty of girls put "no tories" in their tinder bios - yet I still think this is massively overblown.

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1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

The George Flanagan testicle attack last month is a good example of this.

The two players involved had differing versions of events (Flanagan denying he had done anything at all) and the RFL made a judgement call - If I remember correctly they said something along the lines of Jack Bussey's version of events was more believable - there was no evidence either way.

Quite, its about judging what you think happened based on the available evidence. Not searching for objective truth.

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Only two points to make about this , if you read Andre Savelio's statement "I did not report it initially as I was going to deal with it myself the next time we came into contact"  So presumably if Tony Clubb had stayed on the field and the two had come into contact. This thread would not exist and how many other exchanges that cause a scuffle on the field are similar in origin with a what goes on the field stays on it mentality.

I said two points but here's the third, Tony Clubb did not come back on the field post half time but did he participate in the "well played" bit that takes place between the two sides after the final hooter. That might be more illustrative of what the Hull players felt..

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11 minutes ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Only two points to make about this , if you read Andre Savelio's statement "I did not report it initially as I was going to deal with it myself the next time we came into contact"  So presumably if Tony Clubb had stayed on the field and the two had come into contact. This thread would not exist and how many other exchanges that cause a scuffle on the field are similar in origin with a what goes on the field stays on it mentality.

I said two points but here's the third, Tony Clubb did not come back on the field post half time but did he participate in the "well played" bit that takes place between the two sides after the final hooter. That might be more illustrative of what the Hull players felt..

According to savelio's statement,  16 wigan players did the after match 'good games'

 

1 didn't 

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7 minutes ago, Johnoco said:

My daughter is a student at Leeds Uni . I agree with what you say.

But it doesn't matter if the silent majority back something or not, they tend to get swept up in it all. Most people don't want war but it doesn't stop half of the world being a warzone. 

Anyway, with all respect, I'm not interested. Cheers.

Fair enough!

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