Kyle Eastmond (Merged threads)

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Leeds definitely need a clear out and I agree with most, except probably Alex Mellor. 

Lui, Hurrell, Sutcliffe, Martin and L Briscoe all just need to go. I'd add to that Vuniyayawa as well. 

On the raggedy edge of needing to go but still offer something to the team short term i'd say - Myler, Prior, Thompson, Tetevano, T Briscoe and Donaldson. 

That's 12 players that i'd like to see shut of by the end of next season. To replace them i'd like 8 first team quality players - 2 props, 2 back rowers, loose forward, winger, centre and a halfback. Thanks Kev! 

These 8 players are who ?

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Nobody gets absolute top class from the NRL - even Saints. I'd like to see us chance our arm with some of the younger players in the NRL though, who might be looking to take a chance in SL - certainly in the backs positions. As for the rest, don't kid yourself that, even as poor as Leeds are at the moment, they aren't still a huge draw for most British based players. Especially if they can start to see signs of a proper rebuild taking place. 

So the answer is , you don't know ? 

[Tommygilf]

I think the problems in Leeds' recruitment run the risk of being a little overstated here. Any side with a "dynasty" of an extended period of success built around a largely unchanged core of players as Leeds had were undeniably going to find the years after the dynasty came to an end difficult. That list includes of course Sinfield, Peacock, Leuleuai, Burrow, McGuire and JJB. It happens in all sports.

Crucially with Leeds however, this raft of departures also included the second and even third levels of experience departing; Watkins, Ward, Hall, Ablett, Hardaker (ok maybe that was the best transfer we've made in the past 10 years), Bailey, Delaney, Singleton, Keinhorst, Aiton, Moon, Golding, even Sutcliffe was due to leave last year. That's on top of the real filler players we've had. Some of those in that group were undoubtedly "team bin juice" players, but to some extent that is the soul of a club. Moreover, the loss of that second and third tier of players has been the biggest flaw in the clubs squad policy in recent times in my opinion. It's made the loss of the leadership of the older players to retirement even more hardfelt and the transition even harder to manage.

With Leeds its also important to note the on field changes haven't been the only significant changes in recent times. The end of Brian McDermott's long tenure, whether a positive or negative move, was always going to be hugely impactful; especially when they didn't get the replacement "right" first time. I don't think you can avoid the shadow of the stadium rebuild either. That has undoubtedly drawn significant attention from Gary Hetherington and other senior figures at the club. That can clearly be seen by how the recruitment/squad policy (once Hetherington's personal demense) has now been outsourced to a director of Rugby in Kevin Sinfield, and the club's merchandising has been outsourced to Oxen/Elite Pro Sports. I personally think those changes an attempt to both rectify the problem the club faced during the stadium rebuild drawing attention away from Hetherington and Hetherington himself stepping back looking towards retirement and the future. All these changes happened at roughly the same time as the squad departures too.

All that said, Leeds have still won as much silverware as Warrington and Catalans since the start of the 2018 season, and the beginning of the "real transition" for Leeds, 1 Cup. So realistically how bad is it? Yeah they've dropped off Wigan and Saints, but not irrecoverably so and have proven in one off games that they can reach their level.

So yeah its not been great, but lets not be too melodramatic.

[BrisbaneRhino]

I hear what you're saying but  as I said before, my issue has been the lack of a clear strategy around recruitment.  Lack of focus on getting the spine right, too many players kept past their sell-by date, and average squad fillers all over the place. 

I'm not suggesting we can or should consider getting rid of 12 players, but we have to start replacing journeymen with either better quality or properly giving young players a go. There are signs the latter is now happening, but seriously the likes of Vuniyayawa should not be signed by a team that's struggling.  He's exactly the sort of no-mark NRL player Leeds fans used to take the mick out of other clubs signing, and rightly so.

It isn't as if the players we've lost all left at the end of last season. This is the sixth season since we were last genuinely a top quality team.  We nearly got relegated in 2016 and then IMO 2017 set us back a long way because we beat a terrible Cas team in a truly dreadful GF thanks to having a few quality players left, and it seemed to convince management all was well.  I'm a bit worried last year's bonus Challenge Cup win did the same. 

Since 2015, when the Golden Generation started to break up, we've flirted with the bottom of the league three out of six years and only in 2017 did we look anything like competitive against the top sides (except Cas in the regular season).  

Some of that can be explained by injuries etc and I'm certainly not undervaluing the wins we've had since 2015, but looking at the team today I think we're further off being competitive than people think.

I'd also add that if Leeds (or anyone else) was willing to pay top dollar for Lolohea when Leeds signed him, they clearly hadn't watched him play, either in the NRL or for Tonga. They nearly beat England despite him, not because of him.

[BrisbaneRhino]

As an aside, I expect Leeds - along with a number of other clubs - will be having a serious look at Anthony Milford.  The guy has talent but has been awful for two years now. Partly due to being in a poor team but also because his own game has just fallen to pieces. He's been so bad I'm not sure many NRL clubs would take a punt on him.  Moving to SL could be a good move or it could go really badly.

Either way he'll never see $1 Million a year again.

[Man of Kent]

2 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

Lack of focus on getting the spine right, too many players kept past their sell-by date, and average squad fillers all over the place. 

I agree with this. Leeds’ first choice spine compares unfavourably to Saints, Wigan, Catalans, Warrington, Hull FC, Castleford, arguably even Huddersfield. 

It’s not the quality it ought to be for such a big club.

 

[Dunbar]

3 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

As an aside, I expect Leeds - along with a number of other clubs - will be having a serious look at Anthony Milford.  The guy has talent but has been awful for two years now. Partly due to being in a poor team but also because his own game has just fallen to pieces. He's been so bad I'm not sure many NRL clubs would take a punt on him.  Moving to SL could be a good move or it could go really badly.

Either way he'll never see $1 Million a year again.

Of course it is a team game and it is never exclusively down to one player but on the whole I think the Broncos have been a poor team because Milford is in it, not that he is in a poor team.

He is talented but massively inconsistent.  Just the type of player Leeds don't need.

[BrisbaneRhino]

I think the problem with Milford is ultimately he's a fair-weather player. When you're on the front foot and everyone is playing well he looks like a world-beater. But when things start going badly he's one of the first to fold. Exactly what you don't want from your star playmaker.  

[Tommygilf]

3 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

I hear what you're saying but  as I said before, my issue has been the lack of a clear strategy around recruitment.  Lack of focus on getting the spine right, too many players kept past their sell-by date, and average squad fillers all over the place. 

I'm not suggesting we can or should consider getting rid of 12 players, but we have to start replacing journeymen with either better quality or properly giving young players a go. There are signs the latter is now happening, but seriously the likes of Vuniyayawa should not be signed by a team that's struggling.  He's exactly the sort of no-mark NRL player Leeds fans used to take the mick out of other clubs signing, and rightly so.

It isn't as if the players we've lost all left at the end of last season. This is the sixth season since we were last genuinely a top quality team.  We nearly got relegated in 2016 and then IMO 2017 set us back a long way because we beat a terrible Cas team in a truly dreadful GF thanks to having a few quality players left, and it seemed to convince management all was well.  I'm a bit worried last year's bonus Challenge Cup win did the same. 

Since 2015, when the Golden Generation started to break up, we've flirted with the bottom of the league three out of six years and only in 2017 did we look anything like competitive against the top sides (except Cas in the regular season).  

Some of that can be explained by injuries etc and I'm certainly not undervaluing the wins we've had since 2015, but looking at the team today I think we're further off being competitive than people think.

I'd also add that if Leeds (or anyone else) was willing to pay top dollar for Lolohea when Leeds signed him, they clearly hadn't watched him play, either in the NRL or for Tonga. They nearly beat England despite him, not because of him.

Like I said though with Hetherington stepping back, changing coach 3 times and having a new (both in the position at the club and new to the role) DoR there was inevitably going to be teething problems - and for all those problems we have won as much as Warrington and Catalans and more than Cas, Huddersfield and Hull (who others have compared Leeds since the golden generation to unfavorably). So our signings haven't been that bad. 

On Vuniyayawa, he's squad number 19 in all seriousness. He is supposed to be filler, especially in a salary capped sport. If he was our number 13 then fair enough, but we signed the most recent Kiwi 13 for that spot...

In 2017 we still finished a deserved second in the regular season performing far better than in 2011 and 2012 for example where we also won the Grand Final. In 2020 we beat one of two so called "outstanding sides in the League" in the semi final where it actually mattered. Equally, other than the opener against Hull FC, our start to 2020 before the lockdown was going well. 

Now I'd be the first to state all that has a massive caveat of an uninspiring average streak throughout - captain Ward, Coach Agar etc. We've also not helped ourselves in developing young talent - arguably the 3rd tier players I mentioned before weren't of the required standard and is why we let them go but that has had a knock on effect. It also contrasts massively with Wigan who seem to be able to bring through Juniors at a far higher level. Sutcliffe is symptomatic of this where between his own abilities and Leeds' coaching has completely underperformed. Likewise players like Briscoe and Ferres have come to Leeds as England internationals and then gotten worse. Giving Jack Walker such a significant deal was a silly move too imo and smacked far more of desperation than any external signing we have made. That said I am willing to see how this season goes with something like a proper squad out though before I start calling for Agar to be out.

There is still a core of quality in the side. We do need to be closer to Wigan and Saints over the course of a season than we currently are - but only because that makes being in, and therefore winning, the games that matter more likely. We have shown we can beat Wigan in a semi-final, a result which I think largely outweighs the "2020 Cup win papered over cracks" narrative - it wasn't like we got a lucky draw.

Like I said, I think the criticism needs to be in perspective.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

I agree with this. Leeds’ first choice spine compares unfavourably to Saints, Wigan, Catalans, Warrington, Hull FC, Castleford, arguably even Huddersfield. 

It’s not the quality it ought to be for such a big club.

 

I honestly don't think that's fair, especially not for Cas, Hull, Huddersfield, Catalans and Wire. I wouldn't disagree though that our tactics and squad selection relating to those positions has been mixed of late.

[Man of Kent]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I honestly don't think that's fair, especially not for Cas, Hull, Huddersfield, Catalans and Wire. I wouldn't disagree though that our tactics and squad selection relating to those positions has been mixed of late.

Ah, bless. 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

15 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

These 8 players are who ?

I can name you 8 players i'd like to see Leeds get, but kind of irrelevant because it won't happen, so i'll not waste our times posting it just for the inevitable 'who's he?', 'Leeds won't get him' responses. 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

15 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So the answer is , you don't know ? 

See previous reply. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Ah, bless. 

Come to me when those fêted spines have actually won something.

[Saint Toppy]

14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think the problems in Leeds' recruitment run the risk of being a little overstated here. Any side with a "dynasty" of an extended period of success built around a largely unchanged core of players as Leeds had were undeniably going to find the years after the dynasty came to an end difficult. That list includes of course Sinfield, Peacock, Leuleuai, Burrow, McGuire and JJB. It happens in all sports.

 

Its not just recruitment, their flow of good quality players from their own academy also dried up. Both of these things  led to their massive drop off. They literally went from the top to virtually the bottom in the space of a couple of years and thats down to very poor planning.

All clubs who are at the top at one time or another will have a drop off. Saints had it when they lost their core of players like Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham etc. but they still managed to be relatively competitive every year, still making the play-off's. Leeds fell hard and fast and thats much harder to recover from.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Its not just recruitment, their flow of good quality players from their own academy also dried up. Both of these things  led to their massive drop off. They literally went from the top to virtually the bottom in the space of a couple of years and thats down to very poor planning.

All clubs who are at the top at one time or another will have a drop off. Saints had it when they lost their core of players like Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham etc. but they still managed to be relatively competitive every year, still making the play-off's. Leeds fell hard and fast and thats much harder to recover from.

As I put in that and a subsequent post, what really hit Leeds hard in that transition from 2017 onwards was the loss of not just the top players to retirement etc, but the 2nd and 3rd level of players who had grown up in and experienced the club at the finals etc. Right now the only players in the Leeds set up with that are Sutcliffe, Briscoe, Handley, Oledski and Walker. The latter 3 are being generous in terms of "experience" and the first 2 aren't exactly superstars.

Leeds' biggest error was not foreseeing this change and allowing the slightly younger players in that team (Watkins, Hardaker, Hall, Ablett, Moon, Singleton, and even more) to all leave in a short space of time. The squad today is essentially unrecognisable from 2015 or even 2017.

[Dave T]

I think when people complain that the salary cap doesn't work they ignore things like this. Leeds are one of the richest clubs in the UK game but are a bit limited to how aggressive they can be in replacing their natural changes. 

Without going into the merits of the salary cap, I think it does make it more difficult and I think it means clubs need to be more skillful in their recruitment, decisions and every little area that they can get an advantage.

Isn't this what we are meant to want - a club not just being able to be dominant for ever?

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Its not just recruitment, their flow of good quality players from their own academy also dried up. Both of these things  led to their massive drop off. They literally went from the top to virtually the bottom in the space of a couple of years and thats down to very poor planning.

All clubs who are at the top at one time or another will have a drop off. Saints had it when they lost their core of players like Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham etc. but they still managed to be relatively competitive every year, still making the play-off's. Leeds fell hard and fast and thats much harder to recover from.

I think one big difference is that (assuming my perceptions are correct) that Saints have always been ruthless with coaches, with the exception of Cunningham. They have traditionally always been prepared to act quickly when a coach is underperforming.   Leeds have been too loyal hoping it will come right.

I prefer Saints approach.

That is not to say I have a view on the current Leeds coach just a perceived observation on how Saints act quickly. It doesn't seem to impact them negatively in being more ruthless.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, redjonn said:

I think one big difference is that (assuming my perceptions are correct) that Saints have always been ruthless with coaches, with the exception of Cunningham. They have traditionally always been prepared to act quickly when a coach is underperforming.   Leeds have been too loyal hoping it will come right.

I prefer Saints approach.

That is not to say I have a view on the current Leeds coach just a perceived observation on how Saints act quickly. It doesn't seem to impact them negatively in being more ruthless.

In fairness, when was the last time Saints had a coach with 4 Grand Final wins, 2 Challenge Cups, a Treble, a WCC win, and a further 2 Cup Final appearances on their CV that they could sack? 

Leeds have been ruthless. McDermott with all that went mid season after winning a Grand Final. Furner came and went after half a season. Agar is getting an extended run and between Covid and injuries I think he along with a few coaches are getting a bit of a grace period because of that. Since McLennan in 2010 Leeds haven't had a coach leave of their own volition.

[redjonn]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

In fairness, when was the last time Saints had a coach with 4 Grand Final wins, 2 Challenge Cups, a Treble, a WCC win, and a further 2 Cup Final appearances on their CV that they could sack? 

Leeds have been ruthless. McDermott with all that went mid season after winning a Grand Final. Furner came and went after half a season. Agar is getting an extended run and between Covid and injuries I think he along with a few coaches are getting a bit of a grace period because of that. Since McLennan in 2010 Leeds haven't had a coach leave of their own volition.

Yep I get your point but I guess my perceptions are over a very long period. Plus perceptions as distinct from fact so you may well be right.

I'm not sure any Saints coach would be their long enough to win x4 GF... as a dip in performance and their off or poached back to Australia at height of success,  An exaggeration but just a comment as to why that longevity wouldn't happen.

I said perception as distinct from fact... but sometimes perceptions stop you in getting to a comfort zone.

[Saint Toppy]

15 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I think one big difference is that (assuming my perceptions are correct) that Saints have always been ruthless with coaches, with the exception of Cunningham. They have traditionally always been prepared to act quickly when a coach is underperforming.   Leeds have been too loyal hoping it will come right.

I prefer Saints approach.

That is not to say I have a view on the current Leeds coach just a perceived observation on how Saints act quickly. It doesn't seem to impact them negatively in being more ruthless.

Aside from Cunningham the only other SL era coaches I can think who was actually sacked were Hanley and Millward. So hardly being ruthless, 3 sackings in 26 SL seasons

[M j M]

26 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I think one big difference is that (assuming my perceptions are correct) that Saints have always been ruthless with coaches, with the exception of Cunningham. They have traditionally always been prepared to act quickly when a coach is underperforming.   Leeds have been too loyal hoping it will come right.

I prefer Saints approach.

That is not to say I have a view on the current Leeds coach just a perceived observation on how Saints act quickly. It doesn't seem to impact them negatively in being more ruthless.

I don't think this is quite right - 

Lance - sacked

Powell - pushed to one side

Smith - contract not renewed

McMclennan - disappeared by mutual agreement

Mcdermott - sacked

Furner - sacked

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Yep I get your point but I guess my perceptions are over a very long period. Plus perceptions as distinct from fact so you may well be right.

I'm not sure any Saints coach would be their long enough to win x4 GF... as a dip in performance and their off or poached back to Australia at height of success,  An exaggeration but just a comment as to why that longevity wouldn't happen.

I said perception as distinct from fact... but sometimes perceptions stop you in getting to a comfort zone.

Yeah I'm not sure that perception stacks up to reality mate.

Cunningham was kept on for far longer at Saints than any questionable coach at Leeds - 2 and a half seasons. From my own blurred memory they've also lost a few coaches over the years to poaching and leaving. That none has stayed long enough to have a record similar to McDermott's points to a different problem!

[GUBRATS]

8 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

See previous reply. 

So you don't know ?

[redjonn]

6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah I'm not sure that perception stacks up to reality mate.

Cunningham was kept on for far longer at Saints than any questionable coach at Leeds - 2 and a half seasons. From my own blurred memory they've also lost a few coaches over the years to poaching and leaving. That none has stayed long enough to have a record similar to McDermott's points to a different problem!

looks right your correct reading the various responses and my perceptions on what I thought was a Saints good ruthlessness approach isn't