Academy Licensing (2022 - 27) - (Merged threads)

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

Sadly I don't have the data, if someone does it would be great to see.

I can comment from my direct experience it's significant.

You also have those who don't make scholarships and decide to leave.

If kids are only playing to make it to the pro ranks , and leave the sport as soon as they miss a ' gateway ' that is up to them , not really a healthy way to go IMO , but it is their choice 

[del capo]

3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You've lost me there , as I understand it , while on scholarship , players still play for their community clubs as well , unless things have changed 

That's how I understand it as well. And limited to 8 matches a year. ?

With an agreement with the Community game that 400- 425 max would be recruited from the Community game at any one time ( though these regulations have been altered temporarily  because of the pandemic ). Can I recommend that posters have a read of the actual Tier 1 - 3 Regulations on the RFL website ?  Within it you will see  a very useful chart flow. B.5 onwards and most of C should help.

And can posters  think on about the purpose of the Scholarship / Academy structure in the first place? It was never  about simple field  combat before all else but a talent pathway  to progress players individually. Making your squad your 2nd or 3rd team with a pure team results based competition does few little  real good - even quality 20 year old Academy graduates are rarely ready for top 1st team football.

And this round of  'licences ' was well known in advance with the competition rules understood ( or aught to have been ) by the applicants. The issue of quality of environment together with a real effort to protect the playing outlets ( the Community clubs )  for the less gifted teenagers seems at perhaps long last  to have been recognised.

And as for player stats leaving the game or returning back to their roots , The RFL have all the figures as they have been collating them for years. Could though be a touch sensitive to publicize them. Maybe not as bad as people might want to make out. Never the less the Independent Panel through John Rotherham will certainly have had that info and factored it in when producing these recommendations.

[Smudger06]

6 minutes ago, del capo said:

That's how I understand it as well. And limited to 8 matches a year. ?

With an agreement with the Community game that 400- 425 max would be recruited from the Community game at any one time ( though these regulations have been altered temporarily  because of the pandemic ). Can I recommend that posters have a read of the actual Tier 1 - 3 Regulations on the RFL website ?  Within it you will see  a very useful chart flow. B.5 onwards and most of C should help.

And can posters  think on about the purpose of the Scholarship / Academy structure in the first place? It was never  about simple field  combat before all else but a talent pathway  to progress players individually. Making your squad your 2nd or 3rd team with a pure team results based competition does few little  real good - even quality 20 year old Academy graduates are rarely ready for top 1st team football.

And this round of  'licences ' was well known in advance with the competition rules understood ( or aught to have been ) by the applicants. The issue of quality of environment together with a real effort to protect the playing outlets ( the Community clubs )  for the less gifted teenagers seems at perhaps long last  to have been recognised.

And as for player stats leaving the game or returning back to their roots , The RFL have all the figures as they have been collating them for years. Could though be a touch sensitive to publicize them. Maybe not as bad as people might want to make out. Never the less the Independent Panel through John Rotherham will certainly have had that info and factored it in when producing these recommendations.

I find C ~ Players, always a useful read.

[yipyee]

1 hour ago, TrueBull said:

You’re talking about the Cat 3 academies, which are attached to a local college. They’re designed to churn out part time rugby league players with a good trade. And they play in a winter league. Any club can set them up, before last week’s decision, Bradford were planning on running both a Cat 1 & a Cat3 from next year. I can’t see an SL club being excited about having a large pool of part time players training in the evenings. 

I think you miss the point.. 

If the academy is only churning out part time players this is their level. If they produce better quality players they will beat these teams comfortably, either way there is a leagye for tgem to operate in so no one is being cast adrift as so of the ex muppet players are saying

[yipyee]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The non-elite status academies are excluded from the academy league, even if they’re prepared to forgo the RFL contribution. The best scholarship kids will choose to switch to an elite academy in order to play at the highest level, so frankly it’s close to meaningless to offer that as a viable development pathway.
 

It also removes the incentive for clubs to do all of the other “upstream”, early-years and community-club-integrated development activity at their cost. Why do that if the cream switches to Hull FC at 18 after you’ve done all the hard yards? That means less investment in the community, and less work to attract, develop and retain young people into the game 
 

Plus aside from the “whole game” downsides, at club level 25% of SL clubs will be operating at a competitive disadvantage in SuperLeague over the long term as a result. 

So one academy per area for elite players, seems a good use of central funds. I can see why fans can be upset but its fair.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, yipyee said:

So one academy per area for elite players, seems a good use of central funds. I can see why fans can be upset but its fair.

So you agree it would be stupid for Leigh to have a Cat 1 academy ? 

[yipyee]

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So you agree it would be stupid for Leigh to have a Cat 1 academy ? 

I dont think I have said that but I do believe Leigh are a solid championship club and they are damaging their exsistance by risking it all on SL again

[Tommygilf]

Scholarship players are notorious for not playing for their amateur clubs because of "injuries" or commitments related to the Scholarship programmes. This is at roughly u15s...

[GUBRATS]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Scholarship players are notorious for not playing for their amateur clubs because of "injuries" or commitments related to the Scholarship programmes. This is at roughly u15s...

Blame the pro clubs , I'd suggest they instigate it , just as they also oversubscribe the numbers they are allowed 

It's not the system , it's the clubs abusing it , for their own aims and completely disregarding the actual welfare of the players and the SPORT in general 

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Blame the pro clubs , I'd suggest they instigate it , just as they also oversubscribe the numbers they are allowed 

It's not the system , it's the clubs abusing it , for their own aims and completely disregarding the actual welfare of the players and the SPORT in general 

That does happen, but equally as much as youngsters (and their parents) just prioritise the scholarship over the amateur club. It happens wherever there is a conflict of interests and the kid isn't determined to play two games a week.

Partly that is to do with the rarity of matches too, which is the system. Why would a kid risk getting injured for his amateur club a week before one of only a handful of scholarship matches? 

Like I have said on this thread, I don't think clubs should be able to go near kids till they are at least in year 12/13. If they have to though, I'd rather it be in an elite environment rather than a make up the numbers game, given the damage to the junior leagues.

[David Dockhouse Host]

7 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Blame the pro clubs , I'd suggest they instigate it , just as they also oversubscribe the numbers they are allowed 

It's not the system , it's the clubs abusing it , for their own aims and completely disregarding the actual welfare of the players and the SPORT in general 

In theory, the scholarship is planned to have little impact on the community game. But in my experience the reality is different.

1. The pressure on parents and players to play for top teams at u12s,13s etc means players move clubs creating 'super teams'.

2. Players prioritise scholarships, understandable as the training, facilities and coaching is at a more experienced and higher level.

3. Injuries through extra games.

4. Players and parents have less interest in community club as they have, half moved on.

In addition, my experience is the pro clubs really try to support community game, they encourage the players to play for amateur clubs so they can watch them, this is opposite to what is assumed.

I am not against scholarships, we do need to identify talent and nurture the development in an enhanced  system, the pro clubs do provide superb advancement in development IME from the local clubs.

Not sure how we allow elite to progress in a pro environment, keep the community game supported, reduce the impact of 'super teams' and then collapse of them following players leaving etc. To the satisfaction of all? 

I dont think we are far off, we have lots of good in the system, just need to try to address some of these issues without a dramatic affect on something else.

There is no perfect system, but persistent critisism of RFL or other key stakeholders just creates more unrest and hate when, as such a small sport (relatively speaking) we should be working together. All levels left alone will act in self interest, so coming together is the only way. 

Maybe regional scholarships integrated with community clubs then an pro academy system at u19s?

 

 

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

In theory, the scholarship is planned to have little impact on the community game. But in my experience the reality is different.

1. The pressure on parents and players to play for top teams at u12s,13s etc means players move clubs creating 'super teams'.

2. Players prioritise scholarships, understandable as the training, facilities and coaching is at a more experienced and higher level.

3. Injuries through extra games.

4. Players and parents have less interest in community club as they have, half moved on.

In addition, my experience is the pro clubs really try to support community game, they encourage the players to play for amateur clubs so they can watch them, this is opposite to what is assumed.

I am not against scholarships, we do need to identify talent and nurture the development in an enhanced  system, the pro clubs do provide superb advancement in development IME from the local clubs.

Not sure how we allow elite to progress in a pro environment, keep the community game supported, reduce the impact of 'super teams' and then collapse of them following players leaving etc. To the satisfaction of all? 

I dont think we are far off, we have lots of good in the system, just need to try to address some of these issues without a dramatic affect on something else.

There is no perfect system, but persistent critisism of RFL or other key stakeholders just creates more unrest and hate when, as such a small sport (relatively speaking) we should be working together. All levels left alone will act in self interest, so coming together is the only way. 

Maybe regional scholarships integrated with community clubs then an pro academy system at u19s?

 

 

Service Areas to return?

[David Dockhouse Host]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Service Areas to return?

I was involved as a player before that time, and as a parent after that time, but I've heard these mentioned.

The U19s were called DDA when I played, and were similar to scholarships now, then when I was 18 the first Academy league started around 1991.

How did service area work?

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I was involved as a player before that time, and as a parent after that time, but I've heard these mentioned.

The U19s were called DDA when I played, and were similar to scholarships now, then when I was 18 the first Academy league started around 1991.

How did service area work?

It was before me playing but I essentially think it went on postcode (by club) into roughly council areas. I'm not sure whether they had multiple from Wakefield for example but Leeds had a city level team iirc. Football had/has something similar.

I believe it was a bit like the sub regional RU structures with North, East, West, South and Central Yorkshire at u14s, u15s and maybe older where it gave the better players a chance to trial and play at a higher level, but strictly remained in the amateur sphere of influence as it was reliant on the amateur clubs to function.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, David Dockhouse Host said:

I was involved as a player before that time, and as a parent after that time, but I've heard these mentioned.

The U19s were called DDA when I played, and were similar to scholarships now, then when I was 18 the first Academy league started around 1991.

How did service area work?

"

Rugby League service areas' are present in traditional rugby league playing areas such as St Helens and Leeds and aim to develop rugby league sport through youth development programmes.

The Wigan and Leigh Service Area was one of the first in the country to take the step to employ a full time Service Area Co-ordinator. Ben Lazenby's post is funded through a unique partnership between the RFL and Wigan Leisure and Culture Trust; he works as part of the Trust's Sports Development Unit"

Source: https://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/1396498.young-rugby-talent-goes-on-show/ (2007)

[Jao 711]

On 21/05/2021 at 11:46, Davo5 said:

Bottom of the ladder since 2014,obviously the RFL got fed up waiting for Cas to improve then.

But in the Grand Final 2 or3years ago against Wigan.

[dboy]

1 hour ago, Jao 711 said:

But in the Grand Final 2 or3years ago against Wigan.

Haven't produced a first team player since 2011 (Milner).

[Glensider]

The Bradford Bulls team that put 33 points past London Broncos contained 8 players that are products of their own  Academy.

The RFL are calling on the Bulls to axe their academy.   If anybody can see the sense in that  I really would like to see it.   In my opinion it's  only evidence that the managers of the domestic game are actively damaging it !

[Hela Wigmen]

One thread just wasn’t enough. 

[yipyee]

They clearly want to prop up Leeds academy by that being the elite academy in that area

[RigbyLuger]

Does one result negate the findings of an independent panel? No.

[Glensider]

Instead of doing their job & spend time marketing and developing the game the RFL are making decisions that that are unasked for and benefit nobody.    After not having fans for over a year the biggest decision is close RL academies.   Nowhere near the priorities of the clubs or the fans.   Shocking ineptitude! 

[yipyee]

24 minutes ago, Glensider said:

Instead of doing their job & spend time marketing and developing the game the RFL are making decisions that that are unasked for and benefit nobody.    After not having fans for over a year the biggest decision is close RL academies.   Nowhere near the priorities of the clubs or the fans.   Shocking ineptitude! 

There was a timetable to review academys, the community game is damaged by academys and therefore to saturate areas with academys for the sake of it does no one any good.

I do find the bradford one an odd decision however if Bradford were SL I feel this decision wouldnt happen. Same as with Widnes where all the best talent goes to Saints or Warrington. If warrington and widnes swopped positions in the leagues then it would be a different story. Its just wrong place wrong time for championship clubs

[Eddie]

22 minutes ago, Glensider said:

Instead of doing their job & spend time marketing and developing the game the RFL are making decisions that that are unasked for and benefit nobody.    After not having fans for over a year the biggest decision is close RL academies.   Nowhere near the priorities of the clubs or the fans.   Shocking ineptitude! 

I don’t think the lack of fans was down to the RFL but agree closing academies isn’t good for the game in the medium to long term. Widnes closing theirs was tragic considering the players they produce(d). 
 

I don’t think it’s a case of academies or community game, there’s a way they could co-exist. 

[Man of Kent]

Is the RFL really calling on Bradford to axe their academy?