Academy Licensing (2022 - 27) - (Merged threads)

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

But those ' solutions ' aren't actually workable ATM , they are something the sport as a whole could look at , just as more engagement , investment and assistance from all of the pro levels into both the community and school parts of the game is needed 

So yes , this isn't really something we want to do , but ATM this is a necessity 

The solution chosen doesn’t address the issue at all. Ergo, it is pointless. But comes with myriad other downsides

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It’s not direct like that. My point is that pro clubs’ investment in community programmes in their various forms has a positive impact on spreading the word about our game, and aiding participation. If you break the incentive link for the club (because the best kids will switch to your near neighbours with an exclusive academy), you break part of the rationale for that investment. Less investment, less stimulus into the top of the pipeline. Bear in mind most of this funding overwhelmingly comes from owners (not the RFL), of businesses that run at a loss. 

So you are saying HKR will invest less in the community game as a result of this ? , Why ? 

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 minute ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

It’s not direct like that. My point is that pro clubs’ investment in community programmes in their various forms has a positive impact on spreading the word about our game, and aiding participation. If you break the incentive link for the club (because the best kids will switch to your near neighbours with an exclusive academy), you break part of the rationale for that investment. Less investment, less stimulus into the top of the pipeline. Bear in mind most of this funding overwhelmingly comes from owners (not the RFL), of businesses that run at a loss. 

That rationale makes more sense but I'm not sure those links in early stages are significant, not in my experience anyway. The community game is quite distanced from the pro game, with little overlap.

I'd like to see this integration increased, and this could be done with or without academies. An interesting thought, but but the current situation IME has little impact regardless of academy. So many strong RL communities and amateur clubs in areas without academies such as Rochdale, Oldham, Widnes etc.

[GUBRATS]

Just now, David Dockhouse Host said:

That rationale makes more sense but I'm not sure those links in early stages are significant, not in my experience anyway. The community game is quite distanced from the pro game, with little overlap.

I'd like to see this integration increased, and this could be done with or without academies. An interesting thought, but but the current situation IME has little impact regardless of academy. So many strong RL communities and amateur clubs in areas without academies such as Rochdale, Oldham, Widnes etc.

Leigh , Wigan this year signed more lads to their academy from Leigh than from Wigan community clubs 

[yipyee]

9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Leigh , Wigan this year signed more lads to their academy from Leigh than from Wigan community clubs 

Leigh might as well be a part of wigan though, and thats the point of 1 elite academy in one area.

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Leigh might as well be a part of wigan though, and thats the point of 1 elite academy in one area.

Much like Hull , in fact much worse than Hull with Warrington only 8 miles away and Saints 13 , so yes pointless Leigh having an academy , but they should focus more on local community and school RL in the area 

[yipyee]

35 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Much like Hull , in fact much worse than Hull with Warrington only 8 miles away and Saints 13 , so yes pointless Leigh having an academy , but they should focus more on local community and school RL in the area 

Yep, Leigh are a very very good championship club who add a lot to the game.

Its rhe duty of every RL club to engagecwith the communities around their clubs

[robertclark125]

Does the failure to gain a licence not serve as an incentive to clubs to, shall we say, buck up their ideas, make the improvements, to get a licence next time around?

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, robertclark125 said:

Does the failure to gain a licence not serve as an incentive to clubs to, shall we say, buck up their ideas, make the improvements, to get a licence next time around?

By doing what ?

[DimmestStar]

4 minutes ago, robertclark125 said:

Does the failure to gain a licence not serve as an incentive to clubs to, shall we say, buck up their ideas, make the improvements, to get a licence next time around?

It was decided that only one licence would be issued in the city of Hull. With the head of the review panel being an 'avid Hull FC' fan there was never any doubt which way it would go.

There was nothing wrong whatsoever with Rovers application.

Hull KR and Cas U16's played yesterday it was a cracking game with lots of young talent. All of them will be redundant as things stand.

[robertclark125]

For a set off, meeting the criteria to get a licence. It's surely up to the RFL to tell the clubs that didn't make the grade, what they need to do. I'm not familiar with the rules, hence why I'm making a general observation, with no specifics.

[GUBRATS]

11 minutes ago, robertclark125 said:

For a set off, meeting the criteria to get a licence. It's surely up to the RFL to tell the clubs that didn't make the grade, what they need to do. I'm not familiar with the rules, hence why I'm making a general observation, with no specifics.

So , to prove you can meet the criteria to run a cat 1 academy , you need a cat 1 academy ?

[RigbyLuger]

2 hours ago, DimmestStar said:

Hull KR and Cas U16's played yesterday it was a cracking game with lots of young talent. All of them will be redundant as things stand.

So away from the conspiracies, no clubs will be interested in taking on any of these talented youngsters, and, neither of those clubs will sign them either, if they have enough talent to become pros?

[nadera78]

Putting aside the impact on the community game (the cause/effect of which is a separate debate) and just looking at how we produce elite athletes.

When the Hull clubs had a combined academy it was said that there were around 100 players in U16s across the whole city. Taking that as a starting point; out of 100 players you could reasonably expect 1 or 2 of them to have full SL careers, and perhaps 4 or 5 in the Championship/League 1 (and even that number feels high compared to other sports, simply because of our low participation figures and the need to fill 14 full-time and 22 part-time squads).

We could have 4 academies in Hull and, with only 100 U16s, it still wouldn't change the number of players produced simply because the other players won't be good enough to play in SL. There's no shame in that, most of us aren't good enough to do the things we dreamed of as kids, that's why it's called 'elite', but there's also no escaping it. Even if we assumed the number of U16s in Hull has doubled to 200, that still wouldn't justify having more than 1 academy. It's a numbers game, simple as that.

Frankly, having more than 1 academy in Hull would be a ludicrous waste of resources - players, coaches, man hours, finance - especially for a sport that is permanently short of them. I know that sounds cold, but we're not talking about participation, we're talking about producing elite athletes. 

[DoubleD]

Perhaps @Hull Kingston Broncocan explain why when Hull KR put all this ‘investment’ into the community and youth development, that a club on their doorstep had to reach out to a club 70 miles away in Wakefield to support their setup? Says it all

[DoubleD]

I see O’Connor was a bumbling buffoon last night talking about this subject. You could see his temperature rising as Rimmer shut him down with rational explanations. 

His argument of ‘when I was a lad, I just wanted to play for my hometown club’ - that was nearly 40 years ago Terry. The world has moved on as Rimmer says. Clubs now pick up youngsters from lots of different areas outside their areas. Most likely any talented youngsters now will dream of playing in NRL rather than any club in SL, let alone their local club

[RigbyLuger]

11 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Most likely any talented youngsters now will dream of playing in NRL rather than any club in SL, let alone their local club

I think this is key. If your "dream" is just to play for your local club, you may not have the right mindset to succeed as a professional.

[David Dockhouse Host]

1 hour ago, RigbyLuger said:

I think this is key. If your "dream" is just to play for your local club, you may not have the right mindset to succeed as a professional.

And you still can, the 1st team isn't going anywhere and there is likely to be many more opportunities with reserves 

[George Watt]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

I see O’Connor was a bumbling buffoon last night talking about this subject. You could see his temperature rising as Rimmer shut him down with rational explanations. 

 

I noted Rimmer's comment that a key aim of the new Academy system was to produce players capable of forming a team to beat the Aussies in an Ashes series. Well from me there is a big hope for that as the last time I witnessed a winning series was here in Aus.back in 1970. Time is running out for me to see another win though as I am well north of 80!

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

5 hours ago, nadera78 said:

Putting aside the impact on the community game (the cause/effect of which is a separate debate) and just looking at how we produce elite athletes.

When the Hull clubs had a combined academy it was said that there were around 100 players in U16s across the whole city. Taking that as a starting point; out of 100 players you could reasonably expect 1 or 2 of them to have full SL careers, and perhaps 4 or 5 in the Championship/League 1 (and even that number feels high compared to other sports, simply because of our low participation figures and the need to fill 14 full-time and 22 part-time squads).

We could have 4 academies in Hull and, with only 100 U16s, it still wouldn't change the number of players produced simply because the other players won't be good enough to play in SL. There's no shame in that, most of us aren't good enough to do the things we dreamed of as kids, that's why it's called 'elite', but there's also no escaping it. Even if we assumed the number of U16s in Hull has doubled to 200, that still wouldn't justify having more than 1 academy. It's a numbers game, simple as that.

Frankly, having more than 1 academy in Hull would be a ludicrous waste of resources - players, coaches, man hours, finance - especially for a sport that is permanently short of them. I know that sounds cold, but we're not talking about participation, we're talking about producing elite athletes. 

Firstly, you’re incorrect. However regardless, it’s the Hull KR owners choice whether he wants to invest those resources or not at present - hardly any RFL funds are involved. Why prevent him? That’s a net gain of funds and effort into the community game if he does 

[Saint Toppy]

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

I see O’Connor was a bumbling buffoon last night talking about this subject. You could see his temperature rising as Rimmer shut him down with rational explanations. 

His argument of ‘when I was a lad, I just wanted to play for my hometown club’ - that was nearly 40 years ago Terry. The world has moved on as Rimmer says. Clubs now pick up youngsters from lots of different areas outside their areas. Most likely any talented youngsters now will dream of playing in NRL rather than any club in SL, let alone their local club

He wanted to play for them so much he left them for Wigan the first chance he got 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

13 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So you are saying HKR will invest less in the community game as a result of this ? , Why ? 

I’ve answered this question twice la 

[nadera78]

36 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Firstly, you’re incorrect. However regardless, it’s the Hull KR owners choice whether he wants to invest those resources or not at present - hardly any RFL funds are involved. Why prevent him? That’s a net gain of funds and effort into the community game if he does 

There is no strategic gain from having 2 academies cannibalising one another. And it is part of the RFLs job to set that strategy.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 minute ago, nadera78 said:

There is no strategic gain from having 2 academies cannibalising one another. And it is part of the RFLs job to set that strategy.

There’s no cannibalisation, that’s a totally specious argument. Demand (or activity to stimulate demand) creates its own supply... the strategic challenge is to get more kids playing the game, ie upstream, not how to share the current playing base out midstream. The RFL should focus its efforts there - and community investment in development programmes by Hull KR, at a level they haven’t previously been able afford to do, is part of that solution in Hull.

 

That’s why the local clubs back Rovers’ position in this, and with all due respect mate I reckon they know more about the local landscape than a London fan with a “bloomin’ heartlands” chip on his shoulder 

[OriginalMrC]

Mystery solved, it's Coventry's fault

At some point in any discussion about RL someone will start to blame 'expansion'. Its inevitable