Academy Licensing (2022 - 27) - (Merged threads)

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think the key point there is the alternative source of players. The area around Wakefield and Castleford seems to already have quite a few teams. Is there any scope for more junior clubs in that area or do they need to look further afield to increase junior playing numbers

I totally agree, if only because given the reasoning stated there's no way the RFL are goint to let a Cas or a Leigh or a KR in on the basis of only recruiting within spitting distance and then not actually producing many first teamers.

Frankly in the Wakefield MDC I don't think there is much more growth possible other than ensuring every club has a team out. Its already pretty saturated for RL let alone other sports (RU/Football/Hockey etc). Just outside, in Kirklees, Calderdale and definitely South and central Yorkshire there is scope for supporting growth.

IMO however the saturation of their immediate vicinity means thinking outside the box: South Wales, Cumbria, France, British and Irish Rugby Union etc. They could also take the view that (now Premier League) Brentford have and see it as all more cost effective to do this through a second team rather than an academy. 

 

[JM2010]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I totally agree, if only because given the reasoning stated there's no way the RFL are goint to let a Cas or a Leigh or a KR in on the basis of only recruiting within spitting distance and then not actually producing many first teamers.

Frankly in the Wakefield MDC I don't think there is much more growth possible other than ensuring every club has a team out. Its already pretty saturated for RL let alone other sports (RU/Football/Hockey etc). Just outside, in Kirklees, Calderdale and definitely South and central Yorkshire there is scope for supporting growth.

IMO however the saturation of their immediate vicinity means thinking outside the box: South Wales, Cumbria, France, British and Irish Rugby Union etc. They could also take the view that (now Premier League) Brentford have and see it as all more cost effective to do this through a second team rather than an academy. 

 

I think South Yorkshire is definitely somewhere the clubs should be targetting. It's population could definitely accommodate 20+ junior clubs. Should it be Castleford and Hull KR helping grow the game here or should Sheffield Eagles be the club to do it?

[dboy]

Wakefield do missionary work in Bassetlaw!

[JM2010]

8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Does the game have enough resources to fund those academies outside of the clubs though?

And in any case wouldn't most of these academies train and play at existing facilities (ie current clubs) anyway? 

Money would be the main issue. They could be run from a college so they could use the facilities there rather than a professional club

[Lowdesert]

2 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Just what I've been told on here. I thought that was the only source of information I needed. 

I don't actually know much about it tbh. Why did it stop?

Not knowing much about it means your an expert on here.

One club decided it would be better if they both went separate ways.  

[yipyee]

14 hours ago, JM2010 said:

The same amount as one academy. Hull wasn't my idea I had nothing to do with it. 

I'm not sure why you're discussing Castleford's prospects with me. I don't support them 

??

You have lost me know but I guess that was your plan as you have realised you were talking out of your backside

[JM2010]

5 hours ago, yipyee said:

??

You have lost me know but I guess that was your plan as you have realised you were talking out of your backside

I think I lost you a while ago tbh

[The Future is League]

It's about to get nastier

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/29/hull-kr-launch-legal-action-against-rfl-over-refusal-of-elite-academy-licence

[Tommygilf]

12 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

It's about to get nastier

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/29/hull-kr-launch-legal-action-against-rfl-over-refusal-of-elite-academy-licence

Seems to be out on a limb.

Essentially saying it "hurts our employees mental wellbeing" is difficult to argue when KR effectively came to the same conclusion the RFL have only a few years ago with the decision to create the City of Hull academy. In fact, I think their reasoning was almost identical.

Having the support of a few local amateur clubs (likely to be headed up by Rovers fans) is actually symptomatic of the issues.

If I was to speculate about it going any deeper I wonder how much Rovers, Cas et al (would) pay their academy players for the time, effort and very large sacrifices they have to make given they are now leaning on the mental well-being angle. I would suspect from my own knowledge that the answer would be unflattering.

[RigbyLuger]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Essentially saying it "hurts our employees mental wellbeing" is difficult to argue when KR effectively came to the same conclusion the RFL have only a few years ago with the decision to create the City of Hull academy. In fact, I think their reasoning was almost identical.

They should look closer to home for the kind of person they employ.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

11 hours ago, The Future is League said:

It's about to get nastier

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/29/hull-kr-launch-legal-action-against-rfl-over-refusal-of-elite-academy-licence

No reason for this to be nasty, it’s the appeals mechanism set out by the RFL for this process. All normal stuff so far 

 

Although given Neil is the bloke who spent a decade getting justice for hundreds of sub-postmasters in the face of Royal Mails unlimited army of lawyers and dirty tricks, if I was the RFL I might reflect on what happens if another stage is needed...

 

Mind you, Ralph’s boss Gary has just told us what he thinks, so looking good so far for a revised concept I reckon.

[DimmestStar]

I'm very confident this crazy idea to prevent clubs from running academies will be overturned. It should be a REQUIREMENT that Super League clubs run academies not a privilege.

Clearly it is anti-competitive.

And I sincerely hope that when Rovers licence is re-instated the same applies to Bradford Bulls.

Today at Hull KR we saw outstanding performances from Rowan Milnes and Matthew Storton who are products of the Bulls academy. Although as everyone knows they are just the latest in a long, long production line.

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

6 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

I'm very confident this crazy idea to prevent clubs from running academies will be overturned. It should be a REQUIREMENT that Super League clubs run academies not a privilege.

Clearly it is anti-competitive.

And I sincerely hope that when Rovers licence is re-instated the same applies to Bradford Bulls.

Today at Hull KR we saw outstanding performances from Rowan Milnes and Matthew Storton who are products of the Bulls academy. Although as everyone knows they are just the latest in a long, long production line.

 

Agreed, the fact that Rovers (strong current/future vision and staff) and Bulls (top quartile history of delivery) both got rejected tells you everything about the nature of the decision making here. If not those criteria then what? 

 

[DimmestStar]

Gary Hetherington also thinks this is nonsense;

https://www.totalrl.com/hetherington-questions-rfl-decision/

[dboy]

13 hours ago, The Future is League said:

It's about to get nastier

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/29/hull-kr-launch-legal-action-against-rfl-over-refusal-of-elite-academy-licence

Only for HKR.

There is nothing to take legal action over.

It's not a matter of law.

[dboy]

5 minutes ago, DimmestStar said:

Gary Hetherington also thinks this is nonsense;

https://www.totalrl.com/hetherington-questions-rfl-decision/

Not really..."“I can’t criticise the work of the panel that made the decision to withdraw those licences, because I haven’t seen their work..."

[DimmestStar]

30 minutes ago, dboy said:

Not really..."“I can’t criticise the work of the panel that made the decision to withdraw those licences, because I haven’t seen their work..."

Leeds chief executive Gary Hetherington has criticised the decision of the RFL to withdraw elite Academy licences from Bradford, Castleford and Hull KR, while suggesting that the game needs to take a wider view of player production and development.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

4 hours ago, dboy said:

Only for HKR.

There is nothing to take legal action over.

It's not a matter of law.

The RFL designed a process including an appeal to a 3rd party mediator. Hull KR are following that. “Nothing to see here, move along please...” etc etc 

 

 

[TrueBull]

8 hours ago, dboy said:

Only for HKR.

There is nothing to take legal action over.

It's not a matter of law.

The only way I can see it being a matter of law is how the academy impacts on the integrity of the SL comp. 

Having an elite academy and developing your own elite players allows you leeway on the salary cap. 
 

If nothing else changes, in a few years time, Hull could have an effective salary cap of £150k greater than HKR, which would be perfectly ok with the current rules and also a level playing field in the current rules. 
 

As I said before, to maintain fairness, either everyone or no one (regional) can have academies. 
 

If they press on with this, then to minimise the disadvantages to the clubs missing out, they need to scrap all the salary cap advantages that having an academy allows, or make the same advantages available to clubs in the same region maybe? So if Cas signs a Wakey academy product, they can be counted on Castleford’s salary cap as academy trained, being from the same region. 
 

I assume someone from SL is considering this stuff…

[GUBRATS]

10 hours ago, DimmestStar said:

Gary Hetherington also thinks this is nonsense;

https://www.totalrl.com/hetherington-questions-rfl-decision/

No , he thinks that all clubs should be involved in player production , as he says " it's not just all about elite academies " , yes he suggests all SL clubs should run an academy , there are wider issues here , and it needs direction from the RFL and a more ' whole game " approach from all the clubs 

[Smudger06]

3 hours ago, TrueBull said:

The only way I can see it being a matter of law is how the academy impacts on the integrity of the SL comp. 

Having an elite academy and developing your own elite players allows you leeway on the salary cap. 
 

If nothing else changes, in a few years time, Hull could have an effective salary cap of £150k greater than HKR, which would be perfectly ok with the current rules and also a level playing field in the current rules. 
 

As I said before, to maintain fairness, either everyone or no one (regional) can have academies. 
 

If they press on with this, then to minimise the disadvantages to the clubs missing out, they need to scrap all the salary cap advantages that having an academy allows, or make the same advantages available to clubs in the same region maybe? So if Cas signs a Wakey academy product, they can be counted on Castleford’s salary cap as academy trained, being from the same region. 
 

I assume someone from SL is considering this stuff…

Yes there is a legal question regarding club trained dispensation on the salary cap, you are right. They would need to scrap that. 

[dboy]

10 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The RFL designed a process including an appeal to a 3rd party mediator. Hull KR are following that. “Nothing to see here, move along please...” etc etc 

 

 

There is no legal action being taken - it's not a matter of law.

 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, dboy said:

There is no legal action being taken - it's not a matter of law.

 

And again, literally all the reasons for only having 1 academy in Hull were made by KR circa 6 years ago.

[The Future is League]

16 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

No reason for this to be nasty, it’s the appeals mechanism set out by the RFL for this process. All normal stuff so far 

 

Although given Neil is the bloke who spent a decade getting justice for hundreds of sub-postmasters in the face of Royal Mails unlimited army of lawyers and dirty tricks, if I was the RFL I might reflect on what happens if another stage is needed...

 

Mind you, Ralph’s boss Gary has just told us what he thinks, so looking good so far for a revised concept I reckon.

For the record my view hasn't altered on Academies. For me no Academy means no Super League. Every club in Super League should have their own academy and not share an academy and any championship club with aspirations to play in Super League should have an academy as well.We need to augment our playing base at all levels

[dboy]

22 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

For the record my view hasn't altered on Academies. For me no Academy means no Super League. Every club in Super League should have their own academy and not share an academy and any championship club with aspirations to play in Super League should have an academy as well.We need to augment our playing base at all levels

100%...but with the requirement to run it properly, measured against KPIs and standards.