GUBRATS Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 2 hours ago, The Lad said: Still doesn't change the fact that those kids could go to Championship clubs. It also doesn't change the fact that less kids in academy means less players, less chances to find talent. How is casting a big net to find kids who can represent a club or even country appeasing owners?. I think you will find its Rimmer who is talking rubbish just ask Rob Burrow. Why does having less academies mean less players ? , Can clubs only sign players from academies ? Is Rob Burrow an expert administrator ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Some complete ' missing the point ' by some posters on this , as has been pointed out , it is purely a numbers game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 What I proposed isn't too different to what is currently being proposed I just think I worded it wrong. The amount of elite academies that have been granted licences wouldn't increase I would just like some of the clubs that have missed out to be included with them being joined together with those academies. Underneath that is basically a college league but I would have Cat 3 academies in a league then other colleges below that. The only academies which would impact on the community game would be the elite ones but due to limited licences it wouldn't have as big an impact as how it's been run in the past. I hope I've made a bit more sense this time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 minute ago, JM2010 said: What I proposed isn't too different to what is currently being proposed I just think I worded it wrong. The amount of elite academies that have been granted licences wouldn't increase I would just like some of the clubs that have missed out to be included with them being joined together with those academies. Underneath that is basically a college league but I would have Cat 3 academies in a league then other colleges below that. The only academies which would impact on the community game would be the elite ones but due to limited licences it wouldn't have as big an impact as how it's been run in the past. I hope I've made a bit more sense this time So no real change at all ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yipyee Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Is Cas problem with the head coach? Has Powell purposly not promoted anyone looking for short term gain and therefore caused Cas to loose their licence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: So no real change at all ? Well, yeah because clubs such as Hull KR, Castleford, Salford etc would have players in an elite academy instead of not being involved like what's going to be happening now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yipyee Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 2 hours ago, The Lad said: Still doesn't change the fact that those kids could go to Championship clubs. It also doesn't change the fact that less kids in academy means less players, less chances to find talent. How is casting a big net to find kids who can represent a club or even country appeasing owners?. I think you will find its Rimmer who is talking rubbish just ask Rob Burrow. Less kids in academys doesnt mean less players, those players will still be playing in the community game helping amatuer clubs field U18 sides. Any good players will still get picked up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yipyee Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 8 minutes ago, JM2010 said: Well, yeah because clubs such as Hull KR, Castleford, Salford etc would have players in an elite academy instead of not being involved like what's going to be happening now Nope they would get second choice of players available and therefore not elite players. This unnecessarily takes kids away from the community game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, yipyee said: Nope they would get second choice of players available and therefore not elite players. This unnecessarily takes kids away from the community game Why would they get second choice and why would it take more players away from community game? There would still only be one academy in the Wakefield region but Castleford and Wakefield would run it jointly so that Castleford also get to have players in the elite academy system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lad Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 hour ago, GUBRATS said: Why does having less academies mean less players ? , Can clubs only sign players from academies ? Is Rob Burrow an expert administrator ? Less academies means less players who have had top quality coaching and facilities to choose from, of course clubs can pick from other places but academies gives kids a chance to be seen quicker and more of a chance to play for the top teams. Not to mention it provides clubs on all rungs of the ladder a chance to recruit players who have received the coaching provided by the academies. Do i have to explain that academies provide kids with some of the best coaching and facilities around and chances are better players will come from them than anywhere else?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lad Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 hour ago, yipyee said: Less kids in academys doesnt mean less players, those players will still be playing in the community game helping amatuer clubs field U18 sides. Any good players will still get picked up Really? I think that in an academy where a kid is seen and coached by a club he has a better chance of being brought to the first team, its a bit naive to think that all you need is the ability, i see a lot of players who for whatever reason aren't playing in a team that are good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBull Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 hour ago, yipyee said: Nope they would get second choice of players available and therefore not elite players. This unnecessarily takes kids away from the community game Why? Someone seems to have decided that the main reason for players falling away at the u18 and open age is academies. Which is a small reason I suppose, but it’s being blown out of all proportion. It would be useful to see the research the RFL is basing this on. For my u18’s (a few years ago) - remember there isn’t a 17’s, so drawing from 2 years - out of 42 registered players for a Sunday game, 6 were playing for academies, usually between 10-15 were working and 10 were unreliable due to being out on the Saturday night. The recovering ones went on the bench but we always had 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 5 minutes ago, TrueBull said: Why? Someone seems to have decided that the main reason for players falling away at the u18 and open age is academies. Which is a small reason I suppose, but it’s being blown out of all proportion. It would be useful to see the research the RFL is basing this on. For my u18’s (a few years ago) - remember there isn’t a 17’s, so drawing from 2 years - out of 42 registered players for a Sunday game, 6 were playing for academies, usually between 10-15 were working and 10 were unreliable due to being out on the Saturday night. The recovering ones went on the bench but we always had 17. Its not at u18s that players are falling away; its 15s and 16s as a lot of players in a club are picked up by academies, decimating the side which then folds at that age group. That impact is felt throughout the game as players who want to get "spotted" leave their local amateur clubs to go (often fairly large distances) to the "big amateur clubs". The only teams still playing at u17s are the one's who were less good earlier on. I've experienced that, so has my brother. Clubs like Siddal or Kippax which were hugely successful at u12s, 13s, and u14s can't put out a team after 15s because 5 or more of their team have gone onto academies and the team has collapsed. That's before we even discuss the toxicity the quest to be spotted caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 I think the main arguments here are that less academies provide a better standard of competition and have less impact on the community games at u18s vs not enough academies excludes some clubs such as Hull KR, Castleford etc and limits the opportunities for young players to be picked up by a pro club. I think the only way we can have more academies is by increasing the player pool. This could be by opening up new markets (non heartland community game expansion) and/or increasing the amount of community clubs in the heartlands and surrounding areas. Without more juniors playing the game it doesn't matter how many academies there are there will still be the same amount of players with the ability to progress through to SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 3 hours ago, JM2010 said: Well, yeah because clubs such as Hull KR, Castleford, Salford etc would have players in an elite academy instead of not being involved like what's going to be happening now No , I meant your suggestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dboy Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 4 hours ago, JM2010 said: Why would they get second choice and why would it take more players away from community game? There would still only be one academy in the Wakefield region but Castleford and Wakefield would run it jointly so that Castleford also get to have players in the elite academy system Why should Wakey's excellent, well-resourced, well-funded, fully-staffed, education-based academy set-up, prop up Cas's shambolic efforts. Make no mistakes - the players in the Cas academy are not inferior - the Cas set-up just completely fails them. It is not fit for purpose and should not be centrally funded by the RFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimmestStar Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 Rimmers's argument is that it is OK for kids to be in tears now because most of them will end up in tears anyway. So let's not even give them a chance. Meanwhile, Hull KR, Castleford and Bradford are protecting the welfare of those kids because frankly, nobody else cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nadera78 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 13 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said: The comment was well earned, over many years If Penrith’s the benchmark then Leeds fail. If the strategy was to protect the community game from “crowding out” then they’d change the structure to address all teams, not just a limited number. If it was about particular local market penetration then there are smaller geo markets than Hull with more than one team’s academy in, they just don’t happen to share the same prefix in the name. The lesson from Penrith is that you win when you encourage professional sides to actively invest in the local market development of youngsters. Barring a small number of clubs from running elite academies that are able to compete with other academy sides does not encourage those pro clubs to do that - the opposite. All of that is to argue the strategy on its own logic, and demonstrate it fails on its own stated objectives. But as well as that, how about competition integrity? On what planet is allowing only some clubs in a competition to run an elite talent development programme doing that? We know the answer I had no idea my posts aroused such interest over a prolonged period of time. You still refuse to engage in the central point; if you only have 100 16 year olds to work with you're only going to get 1 or 2 SL players. 90 of them won't have anything like the combination of attributes needed to play elite sport, a handful will be close to it but not quite there for a variety of reasons, and the top 1 or 2 will establish themselves and have good careers. You can put the best 25 of them through 1 academy or you can put all 100 through 4 academies, it won't change the basic numbers. You've got it the wrong way round, we need to get more kids playing the game and then look at increasing the number of academies. "Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart." Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 8 hours ago, dboy said: Why should Wakey's excellent, well-resourced, well-funded, fully-staffed, education-based academy set-up, prop up Cas's shambolic efforts. Make no mistakes - the players in the Cas academy are not inferior - the Cas set-up just completely fails them. It is not fit for purpose and should not be centrally funded by the RFL. That is quite the point and is exactly the same position football takes. Standards matter at Academy/youth level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 9 hours ago, GUBRATS said: No , I meant your suggestion That was my suggestion. Stop trying to bait me. I'm just trying to have a discussion. It's fine if we don't agree that's what it's all about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 8 hours ago, dboy said: Why should Wakey's excellent, well-resourced, well-funded, fully-staffed, education-based academy set-up, prop up Cas's shambolic efforts. Make no mistakes - the players in the Cas academy are not inferior - the Cas set-up just completely fails them. It is not fit for purpose and should not be centrally funded by the RFL. That's fair enough if that's the case. If Cas want to be a part of it then they need to up their game by the sounds of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yipyee Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 13 hours ago, JM2010 said: Why would they get second choice and why would it take more players away from community game? There would still only be one academy in the Wakefield region but Castleford and Wakefield would run it jointly so that Castleford also get to have players in the elite academy system If you need me to explain why 2 academys would take double the kids I think theres deeper issues you need to address in your life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2010 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 53 minutes ago, yipyee said: If you need me to explain why 2 academys would take double the kids I think theres deeper issues you need to address in your life I haven't said 2 academies. I clearly say just one academy shared between Castleford and Wakefield so there would be exactly the same amount of kids in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, JM2010 said: I haven't said 2 academies. I clearly say just one academy shared between Castleford and Wakefield so there would be exactly the same amount of kids in it Who has the final say on who goes to which team ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yipyee Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 20 minutes ago, JM2010 said: I haven't said 2 academies. I clearly say just one academy shared between Castleford and Wakefield so there would be exactly the same amount of kids in it So that 2 academys training together at double the cost.. I guess maths/finance isnt your strong point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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