Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 There seems to be more Internationals of Tier 2 Nations named in the Origin Squads than ever before. The vast majority of the players below have played for a Tier 2 Nation and they all qualify for a Tier 2 Nation, they’ve all been named in the Origin squads. These players are the best of the best, the fact so many of them will be in various different World Cup squads is brilliant for International Rugby League. Jaroame Luai, Daniel Saifiti, Tariq Sims, Junior Paulo, Apisai Koroisau, Regan Campbell-Gillard, Xaviar Coates, Felise Kaufusi, Tino Fa’asaumaleaui, David Faifita, Jaydn Su’a, Joe Ofahengaue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Mackem Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: There seems to be more Internationals of Tier 2 Nations named in the Origin Squads than ever before. The vast majority of the players below have played for a Tier 2 Nation and they all qualify for a Tier 2 Nation, they’ve all been named in the Origin squads. These players are the best of the best, the fact so many of them will be in various different World Cup squads is brilliant for International Rugby League. Jaroame Luai, Daniel Saifiti, Tariq Sims, Junior Paulo, Apisai Koroisau, Regan Campbell-Gillard, Xaviar Coates, Felise Kaufusi, Tino Fa’asaumaleaui, David Faifita, Jaydn Su’a, Joe Ofahengaue I’m confused. Are you asking that the likes of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji should play against Queensland and NSW in some sort of competition? Because not only do I think that’s a great idea but I’ve been advocating for this to happen for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 5 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: There seems to be more Internationals of Tier 2 Nations named in the Origin Squads than ever before. The vast majority of the players below have played for a Tier 2 Nation and they all qualify for a Tier 2 Nation, they’ve all been named in the Origin squads. These players are the best of the best, the fact so many of them will be in various different World Cup squads is brilliant for International Rugby League. Jaroame Luai, Daniel Saifiti, Tariq Sims, Junior Paulo, Apisai Koroisau, Regan Campbell-Gillard, Xaviar Coates, Felise Kaufusi, Tino Fa’asaumaleaui, David Faifita, Jaydn Su’a, Joe Ofahengaue I agree that it is great for the international game that many of the best NRL players qualify for tier 2 nations and may choose to play for then as well as play Origin. I think this trend will only increase. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 3 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said: I’m confused. Are you asking that the likes of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji should play against Queensland and NSW in some sort of competition? Because not only do I think that’s a great idea but I’ve been advocating for this to happen for years. I don't think he is advocating that but that is for him to say. Personally, I would hate that. NSW and Queensland should not be playing nations (with perhaps the exception of a touring team if that ever happens again). "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrewxi Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 I actually think the international game would be stronger if they completely scrapped any link between kangaroo qualification and playing in SOO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Mackem Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 33 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I don't think he is advocating that but that is for him to say. Personally, I would hate that. NSW and Queensland should not be playing nations (with perhaps the exception of a touring team if that ever happens again). Could be the only way of getting the Aussies to take international RL serious again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, Cumbrian Mackem said: Could be the only way of getting the Aussies to take international RL serious again. I'm not sure what you are advocating for? Do you want players to be eligible for and play for tier 2 nations and Origin or that Origin just be for players who qualify for Australia and not play for any other nation? Because putting to one side for a second the fact that NSW and Queensland are not technically international sides I can't see how their players can play for these states and the tier 2 nations as well if NSW and Queensland are actually playing Tonga, Fiji, Samoa etc. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Route66 Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 The amount of tier 2 possible players playing not only origin but NRL in general should give the world cup a massive boost, would like to see players declaring their allegiance early to help with the promotion of the world cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnyia Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 If they play origin they can't play for their tier 2 nation. That's what i read somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 3 minutes ago, barnyia said: If they play origin they can't play for their tier 2 nation. That's what i read somewhere. Nah that is only when their games clash now, the link between playing origin and playing for the Kangaroos went a good few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrewxi Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Tommygilf said: Nah that is only when their games clash now, the link between playing origin and playing for the Kangaroos went a good few years ago. https://www.nrl.com/siteassets/documents/state-of-origin-eligibility-rules.pdf "To qualify for State of Origin you must be eligible and elect to play for Australia and have not represented another Tier 1 Nation at Senior Level (England/New Zealand)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yipyee Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 3 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said: Could be the only way of getting the Aussies to take international RL serious again. They dont take it serious as they cannot control it. They can control SOO and can dictate rule changes. They control SH RL and ignore NH as to continue to try to control RL. England or France need to win the world cup and then refuse to play australia and prononuce NH RL as the greatest for them to want to play regular test footy again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTK Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 6 hours ago, thebrewxi said: https://www.nrl.com/siteassets/documents/state-of-origin-eligibility-rules.pdf "To qualify for State of Origin you must be eligible and elect to play for Australia and have not represented another Tier 1 Nation at Senior Level (England/New Zealand)." While that may be an official rule, in practice it means nothing when you could swap your elected nation (between tier 1 and 2) each week. This is a good thing because it means all these tier 2 internationals can make their choice again at the end of the year. The flipside of this is it shows the vested interest the NRL has in ensuring tier 2 internationals don't clash with the standalone Origin weekend as has happened the last couple of years. Scrapping these matches in a WC year using the "Covid issues" excuse while Origin still goes ahead is appalling IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted June 1, 2021 Author Share Posted June 1, 2021 9 hours ago, thebrewxi said: I actually think the international game would be stronger if they completely scrapped any link between kangaroo qualification and playing in SOO. 8 hours ago, barnyia said: If they play origin they can't play for their tier 2 nation. That's what i read somewhere. You can play Origin and then play for any Tier 2 Nation, obviously if the games are played in the same week a player would need to choose whether to play in the International or play in the Origin game. Playing Origin pays far more, $20,000 per game if I remember right. Under the current rules it’s only New Zealand and England Internationals that cannot play Origin. My Opinion is Origin selection should be completely Independent from International selection. If you were born in Queensland, or have a parent that was born in Queensland, or been a resident for 5+ years you should qualify to play for them regardless of whether you play Internationally for Australia, England, New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted June 1, 2021 Author Share Posted June 1, 2021 13 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said: I’m confused. Are you asking that the likes of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji should play against Queensland and NSW in some sort of competition? Because not only do I think that’s a great idea but I’ve been advocating for this to happen for years. No absolutely not it’s a terrible idea, those Nations simply need to play International games not daft gimmick fixtures, the Oceania Cup is a brilliant competition to develop those Nations and the brand of International Rugby League. I was simply pointing out that we are in a really strong position as it’s great for International Rugby League that so many Tongan, Samoan and Fijian Internationals are been selected to play Origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 8 hours ago, yipyee said: England or France need to win the world cup and then refuse to play australia and prononuce NH RL as the greatest for them to want to play regular test footy again Good luck with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Mackem Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: No absolutely not it’s a terrible idea, those Nations simply need to play International games not daft gimmick fixtures, the Oceania Cup is a brilliant competition to develop those Nations and the brand of International Rugby League. I was simply pointing out that we are in a really strong position as it’s great for International Rugby League that so many Tongan, Samoan and Fijian Internationals are been selected to play Origin. The Aussies would never allow the Oceania cup to compete with never mind overtake state of origin. It would and always will play second fiddle to the all mighty and all conquering behemoth that is state of origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Cumbrian Mackem said: The Aussies would never allow the Oceania cup to compete with never mind overtake state of origin. It would and always will play second fiddle to the all mighty and all conquering behemoth that is state of origin. Over time things change. At the moment there are more star players in the NRL who are not eligible for Origin than ever before; or at least eligible for Origin and tier 2 nations. This number will only increase in coming years. An interesting exercise would be to look at selecting a best 17 from the NRL who are nor available for Origin and compare them to the two teams named. 30 years ago the 'others' would be no chance. Today they would be a very good team. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 Tonga is a tier one nation now right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Mackem Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 28 minutes ago, DavidM said: Tonga is a tier one nation now right ? You’d think so after they’ve beaten Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain in the last 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Mackem Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 54 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Over time things change. At the moment there are more star players in the NRL who are not eligible for Origin than ever before; or at least eligible for Origin and tier 2 nations. This number will only increase in coming years. An interesting exercise would be to look at selecting a best 17 from the NRL who are nor available for Origin and compare them to the two teams named. 30 years ago the 'others' would be no chance. Today they would be a very good team. I just can’t ever see the Aussies letting state of origin slip from being the centre of the universe unfortunately. If anything I’d expect them to change the rules to suit themselves by allowing players born in Fiji, png and New Zealand being able to represent Queensland and NSW and moving the dates of the pacific tests from the same time as origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Cumbrian Mackem said: I just can’t ever see the Aussies letting state of origin slip from being the centre of the universe unfortunately. If anything I’d expect them to change the rules to suit themselves by allowing players born in Fiji, png and New Zealand being able to represent Queensland and NSW and moving the dates of the pacific tests from the same time as origin. I think you are right. But very often things like this evolve organically rather than through decisions. If we go back to the 80's and 90's, State of Origin served two or three purposes. 1. An interstate series for Queensland and NSW players/fans to win each year. 2. An opportunity to showcase the best players in Australia in a top class series. 3. A selection trial for the Kangaroos... with State of Origin and finals performances seen as the main selection tools for quality players in competition for Kangaroo spots. If we look at Origin today. While number 3 may still be in play, the Origin jersey is probably more valued than the Kangaroo jersey and so it is not seen as a 'trial' but as the end goal in and of itself. But number 1 and 2 are interesting and will come into conflict I feel as the series evolves. There is no doubt in the 80's and 90's State of Origin was showcasing the very best that Aussie Rugby league had to offer - across the Brisbane and Sydney comps and then across the unified national comp. But today, players like Jason Taumalolo or James Fisher-Harris are not playing in Origin. It is not the best of the best in Australia, it is the best of those that fit both a selection criteria and who they choose to represent internationally. There has already been talk (as you say) about trying change Origin selection criteria to allow the likes of Taumalolo to play. As we see more and more Polynesian players in the NRL I think this in inevitable. So that will solve the 'best of the best' (point 2) but what does it do to point 1? Would the Queensland and NSW fans get behind a series that effectively is an all stars from those states; Tongan internationals, Kiwis etc rather than the Aussies. I really don't know the answer to that as I don't know how much the Australian identity is embedded in the State of Origin ethos. But surely there is a risk of SOO one day reaching the point that it is so diverse that the identity behind the teams disappears and instead the 'groupings' of Australian qualified or Tongan or Kiwi become much more relevant - and this will swing us back to the international identity and international tests being more relevant. As they will be of equal quality but have more foundation and emotional attachment for the fans rather than 'where did you go to school?'. I am looking from the outside in but I see a clear trend to the national teams of the Polynesian players becoming much more relevant. I will take time - decades perhaps - but it will happen. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Prophet Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 17 hours ago, Dunbar said: I don't think he is advocating that but that is for him to say. Personally, I would hate that. NSW and Queensland should not be playing nations (with perhaps the exception of a touring team if that ever happens again). Similar to my instant reaction, but, thinking about it more, I am very open to it. Giving Pacific nations the opportunity to play in big occasion, intense fixtures against SOO teams can only go on to improve the lustre to represent a Pacific Island nation over NSW/Qld and it will further enhance the profile of RL in the respective homelands. In fact, I am all for it and do not want anyone but those that want to play for Australia representing either state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rocket Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 6 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: You can play Origin and then play for any Tier 2 Nation, obviously if the games are played in the same week a player would need to choose whether to play in the International or play in the Origin game. Playing Origin pays far more, $20,000 per game if I remember right. Was $ 30k, reduced to $10k last year, not sure if this still holds. 6 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: Under the current rules it’s only New Zealand and England Internationals that cannot play Origin. My Opinion is Origin selection should be completely Independent from International selection. If you were born in Queensland, or have a parent that was born in Queensland, or been a resident for 5+ years you should qualify to play for them regardless of whether you play Internationally for Australia, England, New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa or anyone else. I agree with this and have said it before, playing for NSW or QLD should be removed from who you play for internationally. Had Sam Burgess through a 5 year residential rule nominated to play for NSW, one could almost look on them being like a `mercenary` bought in to win the series. This would suit the NRL`s `best of the best` agenda and imagine what players could take back to their respective national teams. For a team like Samoa, imagine the benefits of Jerome Laui having played Origin. 46 minutes ago, Dunbar said: But surely there is a risk of SOO one day reaching the point that it is so diverse that the identity behind the teams disappears and instead the 'groupings' of Australian qualified or Tongan or Kiwi become much more relevant - and this will swing us back to the international identity and international tests being more relevant I`ve made this point before and it is probably hard for people to grasp if you don`t live here. SOO has been on a gradual slow decline for the past 20 years reflected in the slow decline in TV ratings and the inability, especially in NSW, to sell matches, aside from deciders, out. V`landy`s attempts to change the rules to bring the likes of Taumololo in was a direct response to this, because he`s a drawcard. The NRL will do whatever it can get away with to prolong the life of this series because of the money it generates. There were worrying signs even this year with very sluggish ticket sales in Melbourne, before even the latest outbreak down there they were worried they might not even get a crowd of 60 000. I can see a scenario in the very near future that the only way they will get sell-outs in non-League states is if they have a decider. That`s not going to please NSW and QLD residents. If Origin starts playing to half full stadiums it will then get the whiff of death about it and it could unravel pretty quickly, because it relies on full-houses full of screaming rabid fans. Hopefully by then the international game will be able to step up and fill the void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumbrian Mackem Posted June 1, 2021 Share Posted June 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said: Similar to my instant reaction, but, thinking about it more, I am very open to it. Giving Pacific nations the opportunity to play in big occasion, intense fixtures against SOO teams can only go on to improve the lustre to represent a Pacific Island nation over NSW/Qld and it will further enhance the profile of RL in the respective homelands. In fact, I am all for it. Could be huge. 6 teams spit into 2 groups all playing each other once with the group winners playing in a final. nsw queensland new Zealand fiji tonga samoa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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