John Duffy to be sacked?

[Just Browny]

15 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

coach of leigh required -must be prepared to be on a constant hiding to nothing - personal parking space included exept on tuesdays when its reserved by clothes aid for bin bag drop offs - wage un negotiable 

Pretty sure they need to keep the space free on Wednesdays too in case of any hastily-arranged international matches.

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Whoa hang on a minute Tommy.

I would have thought that someone who had to produce a 'dissertation' as part of achieving their scholastic standing, would be more inclined to use and promote 'facts' other than just 'envisage' the proceedings.

Tell me I am wrong but I was under the impression that 'dissertations' must not contain 'speculation'? 

Yes of course you have not penned a dissertation in your reply, but you cannot argue what you have said is nothing other than pure fabrication. I must say you really surprise me it is not what I expect from you.

Dissertations, at least in humanities, are full of judgement calls and assumptions. In this reality, the concept of "facts" don't really exist - just best assumptions based on the available evidence. For example, tell me why Britain invaded Iraq under the Blair administration? The "fact" that is the answer there is hugely contested. To take it another way, some things just have to be assumed and/or accepted as "fact" or you'll get nowhere.

Indeed most of the reasoning for the best assumptions comes from reading between the lines and what is not said. Understanding the provenance of comments and sources is far more important than the content of the source itself in my experience - especially when it is said in public!

You could argue speculation is the very heart of academic work. You just agree which set of speculations you think are most likely and go from there.

[Harry Stottle]

42 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Dissertations, at least in humanities, are full of judgement calls and assumptions. In this reality, the concept of "facts" don't really exist - just best assumptions based on the available evidence. For example, tell me why Britain invaded Iraq under the Blair administration? The "fact" that is the answer there is hugely contested. To take it another way, some things just have to be assumed and/or accepted as "fact" or you'll get nowhere.

Indeed most of the reasoning for the best assumptions comes from reading between the lines and what is not said. Understanding the provenance of comments and sources is far more important than the content of the source itself in my experience - especially when it is said in public!

You could argue speculation is the very heart of academic work. You just agree which set of speculations you think are most likely and go from there.

All very feasible, but judgement calls and assumptions are very private until you can convince enough people that they actually happened, took place or was said an then that brings in perspective in how you view or percieve something.

[LeytherRob]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Dissertations, at least in humanities, are full of judgement calls and assumptions. In this reality, the concept of "facts" don't really exist - just best assumptions based on the available evidence. For example, tell me why Britain invaded Iraq under the Blair administration? The "fact" that is the answer there is hugely contested. To take it another way, some things just have to be assumed and/or accepted as "fact" or you'll get nowhere.

Indeed most of the reasoning for the best assumptions comes from reading between the lines and what is not said. Understanding the provenance of comments and sources is far more important than the content of the source itself in my experience - especially when it is said in public!

You could argue speculation is the very heart of academic work. You just agree which set of speculations you think are most likely and go from there.

Strange how you shut down attempts at speculation on the academy thread with tin foil hat comments, a subject where facts are very much disputed between the parties involved, however are happy to speculate away on a story which both parties have been in complete agreement. So perhaps you should take your own advice on this one and put the tin foil hat away.

[Tommygilf]

54 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

All very feasible, but judgement calls and assumptions are very private until you can convince enough people that they actually happened, took place or was said an then that brings in perspective in how you view or percieve something.

Some people make a living out of it to be honest!

Its all about judging whether you believe something. Sometimes face value is fine, sometimes it isn't. Deciding where the line is isn't easy, and in the internet news age its arguably the most important skill of them all.

As I said to you earlier in this thread the timing of this is the odd bit for me, as from the outside everything that Leigh have experienced since being accepted into Super League has been entirely predictable and forseeable given the circumstances. In the absence of something obvious changing between then and now, its perfectly reasonable to infer that a point of our initial assumptions (that Leigh would be in this predicament) was not shared by either both or one of Mr Beaumont or Mr Duffy.

The lack of immediate replacement would suggest that this move was instigated by Duffy, as I'd expect a Chairman would only remove a coach if they had a replacement lined up and ready. Though it's possible that expectation could be misplaced. You know the club better than I do on that one. What are your thoughts?

[Tommygilf]

29 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Strange how you shut down attempts at speculation on the academy thread with tin foil hat comments, a subject where facts are very much disputed between the parties involved, however are happy to speculate away on a story which both parties have been in complete agreement. So perhaps you should take your own advice on this one and put the tin foil hat away.

I distinctly remember having quite a lengthy debate with you on that topic. Hardly a sign of shutting anything down!

You're perfectly free to draw whatever conclusions and believe what you wish to from what you have read, watched etc., as am I. That is the fun of the debate!

[JohnM]

I guess in the end, we'll never know who said what to whom, who did what to whom, etc. etc. 

I hold no brief for Leigh but a think it's important for the game that they stay up so that we avoid a return to expensive, stressful, controversial yo-yos

[Snowys Backside]

Something needed to change, and an amicable agreement was reached in regards of that. 

I don't know what the issue is. Duffys gone, life goes on, and Leigh moves on. 

Poisoned chalice or not, everyone involved at the club knew the task at hand. No one wants sympathy and someone needed to make up the 12th team. Enjoy the ride, but being competitive for 40 mins just wasn't good enough. 

Good luck to whoever picks up the role and good luck to the lads who put their bosies on the line. Hopefully the tosspots crowing at the negative news may dwindle back to their shells.! 

[Robin Evans]

1 hour ago, Snowys Backside said:

Something needed to change, and an amicable agreement was reached in regards of that. 

I don't know what the issue is. Duffys gone, life goes on, and Leigh moves on. 

Poisoned chalice or not, everyone involved at the club knew the task at hand. No one wants sympathy and someone needed to make up the 12th team. Enjoy the ride, but being competitive for 40 mins just wasn't good enough. 

Good luck to whoever picks up the role and good luck to the lads who put their bosies on the line. Hopefully the tosspots crowing at the negative news may dwindle back to their shells.! 

Top post cocker

[Mumby Magic]

It's a gamble. If they stay up a master stroke. If they go down another culling of players will happen. 

[GUBRATS]

18 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Did you take the comments in the article at face value?

That's cute!

You don't know the people involved , seems perfectly reasonable to anybody who knows them 

[GUBRATS]

7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Whoa hang on a minute Tommy.

I would have thought that someone who had to produce a 'dissertation' as part of achieving their scholastic standing, would be more inclined to use and promote 'facts' other than just 'envisage' the proceedings.

Tell me I am wrong but I was under the impression that 'dissertations' must not contain 'speculation'? 

Yes of course you have not penned a dissertation in your reply, but you cannot argue what you have said is nothing other than pure fabrication. I must say you really surprise me it is not what I expect from you.

 

Unfortunately it's exactly what I've come to expect from Tommy , he's become quite obnoxious recently , he might grow up one day 

[GUBRATS]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Dissertations, at least in humanities, are full of judgement calls and assumptions. In this reality, the concept of "facts" don't really exist - just best assumptions based on the available evidence. For example, tell me why Britain invaded Iraq under the Blair administration? The "fact" that is the answer there is hugely contested. To take it another way, some things just have to be assumed and/or accepted as "fact" or you'll get nowhere.

Indeed most of the reasoning for the best assumptions comes from reading between the lines and what is not said. Understanding the provenance of comments and sources is far more important than the content of the source itself in my experience - especially when it is said in public!

You could argue speculation is the very heart of academic work. You just agree which set of speculations you think are most likely and go from there.

Or you're just full of sheeeeite 

[GUBRATS]

4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Some people make a living out of it to be honest!

Its all about judging whether you believe something. Sometimes face value is fine, sometimes it isn't. Deciding where the line is isn't easy, and in the internet news age its arguably the most important skill of them all.

As I said to you earlier in this thread the timing of this is the odd bit for me, as from the outside everything that Leigh have experienced since being accepted into Super League has been entirely predictable and forseeable given the circumstances. In the absence of something obvious changing between then and now, its perfectly reasonable to infer that a point of our initial assumptions (that Leigh would be in this predicament) was not shared by either both or one of Mr Beaumont or Mr Duffy.

The lack of immediate replacement would suggest that this move was instigated by Duffy, as I'd expect a Chairman would only remove a coach if they had a replacement lined up and ready. Though it's possible that expectation could be misplaced. You know the club better than I do on that one. What are your thoughts?

Yes , we do know the club better than you , that's why you haven't a clue and are posting ######

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

You don't know the people involved , seems perfectly reasonable to anybody who knows them 

 

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Or you're just full of sheeeeite 

 

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , we do know the club better than you , that's why you haven't a clue and are posting ######

So what's changed then? Surely something must have to have made this happen? Or do people do things for no apparent and obvious reason all the time in the Borough of Wigan?

[LeytherRob]

4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

 

 

So what's changed then? Surely something must have to have made this happen? Or do people do things for no apparent and obvious reason all the time in the Borough of Wigan?

If I had to guess, I'd assume the 9 competitive losses from 9 games had an effect. It's painfully obvious Duffy was out of his depth. 

It's all well and good saying Leigh were on a hiding to nothing, players not good enough etc but we bombed game 1 against Wigan, completely capitulated a winning position against an equally poor Salford amongst other decent positions we've found ourselves in. We've got little to no chance against Wakefield on Sunday with an injury ravaged squad so makes pretty good sense to rip the plaster off now so that whoever comes in has ample time to try and turn things around. 

Duffy is a nice guy, but I've had reservations on his coaching ability going back to his first season in 2019 when after a great start to the year he randomly started putting McNally on the wing and Ridyard at FB to accommodate Josh Woods and Brierley in the halves. It made no sense and our form went out the window but he persisted with it all the way to a disappointing conclusion to the season.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

If I had to guess, I'd assume the 9 competitive losses from 9 games had an effect. It's painfully obvious Duffy was out of his depth. 

It's all well and good saying Leigh were on a hiding to nothing, players not good enough etc but we bombed game 1 against Wigan, completely capitulated a winning position against an equally poor Salford amongst other decent positions we've found ourselves in. We've got little to no chance against Wakefield on Sunday with an injury ravaged squad so makes pretty good sense to rip the plaster off now so that whoever comes in has ample time to try and turn things around. 

Duffy is a nice guy, but I've had reservations on his coaching ability going back to his first season in 2019 when after a great start to the year he randomly started putting McNally on the wing and Ridyard at FB to accommodate Josh Woods and Brierley in the halves. It made no sense and our form went out the window but he persisted with it all the way to a disappointing conclusion to the season.

Yeah fair enough, I suppose it must be tough but perhaps because I'm removed emotionally from the situation its a bit easier for me to say this was entirely expected. I take it then you think this is a move initiated from the top to see if anything can be salvaged?

Perversely that performance against Wigan might have kept Duffy in place a few weeks longer. I had hoped that Leigh, backed by DB, would stuff some of the selfish clubs in Super League, but like you it seems I remained thoroughly unconvinced that he was a coach capable of doing it.

I do get what you mean about Duffy as a coach. As I think Harry said earlier in this thread, Leigh's coaching appointments under DB have been from a small pool of ex club men. I'm surprised a club with the consistent ambition and backing of Leigh haven't had a top quality coach (or at least one with a more substantial CV) in that time. I'm not talking Wayne Bennett, but at least someone from outside the club with a bit of success or a good record. I think Keiron Cunningham was as close as they've got which isn't something to write home about!

That said I'm inclined to think there's no point getting rid of a coach if you don't have a clearish short term plan in place to replace them. Action for the sake of action? If he's only going to be replaced by Purtill?

[LeytherRob]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Yeah fair enough, I suppose it must be tough but perhaps because I'm removed emotionally from the situation its a bit easier for me to say this was entirely expected. I take it then you think this is a move initiated from the top to see if anything can be salvaged?

Perversely that performance against Wigan might have kept Duffy in place a few weeks longer. I had hoped that Leigh, backed by DB, would stuff some of the selfish clubs in Super League, but like you it seems I remained thoroughly unconvinced that he was a coach capable of doing it.

I do get what you mean about Duffy as a coach. As I think Harry said earlier in this thread, Leigh's coaching appointments under DB have been from a small pool of ex club men. I'm surprised a club with the consistent ambition and backing of Leigh haven't had a top quality coach (or at least one with a more substantial CV) in that time. I'm not talking Wayne Bennett, but at least someone from outside the club with a bit of success or a good record. I think Keiron Cunningham was as close as they've got which isn't something to write home about!

That said I'm inclined to think there's no point getting rid of a coach if you don't have a clearish short term plan in place to replace them. Action for the sake of action? If he's only going to be replaced by Purtill?

Having watched everyone minute of Leighs games so far this year, we should have been on 2 wins right now(Wigan and Salford) which would've had us 4 points clear of last place assuming other results stayed as they were. Whilst the squad isn't exactly brilliant, it is much better than results we've been getting particularly when it comes to points difference.

 

Barring a couple of shockers such as the thumping by Wire and Cas, we've been in a lot of competitive positions ruined by us chasing games unnecessarily from early in the second half even though we've gotten better results doing the basics early on. For me that's down to half time instructions of the coaching staff.

On who comes next, I don't doubt for one minute that Beaumont would be throwing money at Wane right now but whether he comes is another matter. I wouldn't mind Henderson but would be very disappointed were Purtill to get the job. He might have improved a bad situation in 2018 but considering the playing personnel we still massively underperformed and were really clueless at closing out games. Leigh have tried to find their answer to Ian Watson, but now they need to find a Tony Smith. 

[Manfred Mann]

I don’t dispute that the quality of the coach makes a difference to a team’s performance. The evidence is abundant from the NRL, be it from the drastic positive change in NZ Warriors’ performances after Stephen Kearney was belatedly sacked, to the ability of Craig Bellamy at Melbourne Storm to turn previously slightly above average players into stars.

However no coach can turn a team full of mediocre and below average players into stars. And that is a big part of the problem at Leigh. The club just doesn’t have the playing personnel to get off the bottom of the competition ladder. Derek Beaumont needed to make bold moves in foreign player recruitment from the beginning, in the way that Bernard Guasch  has done at Catalans. I know that Guasch has made mistakes with some players in the past. But he has always ignored the moral conventions, in terms of players regarded as “bad boys” in Australia, and right now his player recruitment decisions are looking very good. Beaumont should have bitten the bullet and signed “bad boys” Ben Barba, Michael Jennings, and Bronson Xerri, and also the talented match winning half Chris Sandow, out of favor Cronulla prop Andrew Fifita (whose twin brother plays for Wakefield), and sensational PNG speedster winger/fullback Edene Gabbie (formerly with South Sydney, now on $1000 a week at Wests Tigers, as he waits in the pecking order behind Dally M winger David Nofoaluma and SOO centre now winger James Roberts) as players. Since these players now either have no options in the NRL, or else no guarantees of playing soon in the NRL, he could have signed them for reasonable money.

In addition Beaumont should have paid good money to get either a reputable but now unemployed NRL coach such as Paul Green, Paul “Mary” McGregor, or Neil Henry, or even Justin Morgan — the now long-standing assistant coach at the NZ Warriors who did very well when he coached Hull KR for many years.

If Leigh could have made all or even most of those signings, it  would not only have got Leigh off the bottom of the table. It might even have given Leigh a chance to challenge for the final place in the playoffs.

It is probably too late now for Leigh to make the playoffs, but signing most of the individuals whom I have mentioned even now would assure that Leigh was not relegated.

[Snowys Backside]

15 minutes ago, Manfred Mann said:

I don’t dispute that the quality of the coach makes a difference to a team’s performance. The evidence is abundant from the NRL, be it from the drastic positive change in NZ Warriors’ performances after Stephen Kearney was belatedly sacked, to the ability of Craig Bellamy at Melbourne Storm to turn previously slightly above average players into stars.

However no coach can turn a team full of mediocre and below average players into stars. And that is a big part of the problem at Leigh. The club just doesn’t have the playing personnel to get off the bottom of the competition ladder. Derek Beaumont needed to make bold moves in foreign player recruitment from the beginning, in the way that Bernard Guasch  has done at Catalans. I know that Guasch has made mistakes with some players in the past. But he has always ignored the moral conventions, in terms of players regarded as “bad boys” in Australia, and right now his player recruitment decisions are looking very good. Beaumont should have bitten the bullet and signed “bad boys” Ben Barba, Michael Jennings, and Bronson Xerri, and also out of favor prop Andrew Fifita, as players. Since they now have no options in the NRL, he could have signed them for reasonable money.

In addition Beaumont should have paid good money to get either a reputable but now unemployed NRL coach such as Paul Green, Paul “Mary” McGregor, or Neil Henry, or even Justin Morgan — the now long-standing assistant coach at the NZ Warriors who did very well when he coached Hull KR for many years.

Those signings would not only have got Leigh off the bottom of the table. It might even have given Leigh a chance to challenge for the final place in the playoffs.

Some interesting points, but for one, on paper I don't think Leigh have a bad side with a full 17 available. 

In 1992, our side was absolutely crud, rock bottom and a gutsy first win in 10 v St Helens of all teams led to us climbing up the table losing only 9 games for the rest of the season with the same crud team bar 3 Academy lads. 

We have been competitive but our 2nd half's have been woeful. Fitness?  Motivation? Surprise of leading?  That's the Coaches role and and it's one Job that Duffy failed so miserably on. If it's poor conditioning, the backroom team have to go too! 

The 1992 Solution was an Aussie coach called Steve Simms. Great bloke and a different team environment meant a different team performance come game day. Its all about 80 mins, and irrespective of Duffy being thrown a bad hand or not, the job he was doing wasn't good enough. 

As a Leigh fan do I sympathise?  Yes

Did we need change? Absolutely. Derek needs to as well. Mates need to be a thing of the past. He just needs to employ the best, even if they don't see eye to eye and get what the club desires. If he doesn't see this, then he needs to move on too. 

No more yes men! 

[JohnM]

I think he (and this may or may not also apply to other owners, too) needs to demonstrate that the overall environment at the club is attractive to an incoming coach. If the private reality in any way matches the the public image of the club and owner, its hard to imagine that a big name coach might want the gig.  

I might be doing the guy a disservice, of course. People who actually know him might see things differently. 

All Superleague clubs come in at the lower end of  the SME category, with quite modest income figures. In my experience, the owners of such small  businesses can find it hard not to interfere in the day to day running, something that a top coach would not accept. 

 

[Saint Toppy]

8 hours ago, Manfred Mann said:

However no coach can turn a team full of mediocre and below average players into stars. And that is a big part of the problem at Leigh.

Not quite stars but Holbrook is doing OK at the Titans who up until signing the likes of Fifita this year had a team of very average players barring maybe 1 or 2.

[The Blues Ox]

13 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

Barring a couple of shockers such as the thumping by Wire and Cas, we've been in a lot of competitive positions ruined by us chasing games unnecessarily from early in the second half even though we've gotten better results doing the basics early on. For me that's down to half time instructions of the coaching staff.

 

I doubt the coaching staff suddenly change tactics if things are going well, the reality is that its more than likely down to fatigue in the players who have upped their levels massively for the first half which again just comes down to a lack of quality in the squad. Other factors such as the opposition likely thinking of an easy win should be taken in to account as well.

Thats not a dig at Leigh by the way they have been handed an impossible situation that everyone apart from DB saw coming. I don't believe he is that knowledgable when it comes to Rugby League anyway but to think this were a good idea just shows how out of touch he really is.

[LeytherRob]

2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

I doubt the coaching staff suddenly change tactics if things are going well, the reality is that its more than likely down to fatigue in the players who have upped their levels massively for the first half which again just comes down to a lack of quality in the squad. Other factors such as the opposition likely thinking of an easy win should be taken in to account as well.

Thats not a dig at Leigh by the way they have been handed an impossible situation that everyone apart from DB saw coming. I don't believe he is that knowledgable when it comes to Rugby League anyway but to think this were a good idea just shows how out of touch he really is.

The way teams set out to play is entirely the responsibility of the coaching staff. If you need any further proof look at the difference between Salford under Watson last year and Marshall this year, with an almost identical squad. The notion that no coach could do better than Duffy has is utter nonsense and it's unbelievable I even have to point that out. 

 

[The Blues Ox]

14 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

The way teams set out to play is entirely the responsibility of the coaching staff. If you need any further proof look at the difference between Salford under Watson last year and Marshall this year, with an almost identical squad. The notion that no coach could do better than Duffy has is utter nonsense and it's unbelievable I even have to point that out. 

 

That's not really a fair comparrison, Leigh at best had a team that could have challenged for promotion this year. To take pretty much that squad and expect them to win games in SL without massive imporvements in playing personel was dilousional. Everybody could see it so im not sure why anybody can be surprised. Yes there will be one or two games that they might compete in and with a little bit of luck could gain the odd victory but even a comparison between Wakefield, Salford, and Leigh's squads you can see the vast gulf in quality.

Leigh should have pocketed the cash this season and built a team to push for promotion in 2022 and one that would only take a few improvements to stand a chance of staying up in 2023.