Sat 5 Jun: CCSF: Hull FC v St Helens KO 14:30 (TV)

[daz39]

1 hour ago, Old Frightful said:

I think that there's way too much OTT stuff and sweeping generalisations about Saints as a direct result of the Griffin incident which I find unfortunate.

When it happened, as I recall, there were a few Saints players with obvious concern for Griffin, some more who weren't sure how to react and the likes of Fages and one or two others appealing and celebrating.

Overall, I would probably expect a similar split down most teams' personnel had they been Hull's opposition.

As I've already stated, I think the major part of the blame lies with referee Liam Moore although who would want the responsibility of disallowing a try that didn't contravene the rules by using the "not in the spirit of the game" law in a Challenge Cup Semi Final?

His try made it very difficult for my team to win that game but, as everyone watching saw, it wasn't the difference in the end and great credit must go to Hull for that. When Connor kicked that 40/20 I felt we were then favourites, Saints looked to be only just hanging on. Regan Grace made a decision when Hull chucked it wide that could have given us the game but fortunately for him he got lucky and held on to Connor's pass.

I think I'd like the dust to settle now, forget about it as much as I possibly can, and hope that Fages receives special "hard but fair" attention when he ever comes up against Hull FC in the future.

 

 

There is no 'Spirit of the game' law therefore Mr Moore did nothing wrong.

[Rupert Prince]

8 hours ago, jacksy said:

I don't have an issue with Griffin/Fages try we didnt lose the game because of it.

If that had been Eng/GB v Australia and we were in the same situation. I would of been screaming at our players to pick it up and score.

You play to the whistle.

Rest assured, if England player picked up the ball like that after an Aussie injury, the NZ ref would have blown up to stop the game!

[Dunbar]

Well, I have had a chance to sleep on the situation and upon reflection...

On balance, I would have liked to have seen Saints stop the play, that would have been a great sporting gesture.  But I have had almost 24 hours to reflect on it.  Theo Fages had a split second to make the decision.

I will not be too critical of Fages.  We are told time and again to play to the whistle and he did.  Maybe the Saints team should have rectified it by allowing FC to score from the kick off but that would have been unprecedented - although it would have been a fantastic gesture.

I have also had a change of heart on the referee as well.  Last night I thought that the idea of suggesting that the referee rule out the try because it was unsporting was absurd.  On reflection, I have decided that it is utterly absurd.  You cannot ask the referees to decide whether a score is unfair or not... you can only ask them to apply the laws of the game.

[JohnM]

54 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

And some of the rubbish Connor gets up to often isn’t part of the game,do Hull fans  switch off ?

That's what aboutism of a high order. This is about a real incident that was seen by many during a heavily trailed game at a sports viewing peak time on national TV. 

[Padge]

1 hour ago, daz39 said:

Surely a better referee would've done his job and applied the rules, which he did !!

He didn't though, the referee had a law he could have applied to disallow the try.

[daz39]

11 minutes ago, Padge said:

He didn't though, the referee had a law he could have applied to disallow the try.

Which one?

[Dunbar]

13 minutes ago, Padge said:

He didn't though, the referee had a law he could have applied to disallow the try.

I assume that you are referring to law (i) under the section 'misconduct'.

'behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game'.

Rugby League (rugby-league.com)

Are you really trying to argue that scoring a try is misconduct? 

[Waynebennettswinger]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

I assume that you are referring to law (i) under the section 'misconduct'.

'behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game'.

Rugby League (rugby-league.com)

Are you really trying to argue that scoring a try is misconduct? 

No he and his Wigan buddies are just trolling don’t bring common sense in to this.

[Padge]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I assume that you are referring to law (i) under the section 'misconduct'.

'behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game'.

Rugby League (rugby-league.com)

Are you really trying to argue that scoring a try is misconduct? 

You obviously don't understand the law and the reason for it.

[GeordieSaint]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Disappointed, obviously, but we were left to rue the same traits that cost us last year. Patience close to the line and counting heads in defence.  I don’t know if it’s a communication issue (I think it is) but Grace first try had Fonua’s side overloaded for far too long before he scored.  That shouldn’t have happened so early and I believe Connors pass out into Graces hands, which killed the game, wasn’t really on.  Time and momentum was still on our side.

Never the less I thought Satae was tremendous.  Houghton, Ma’u and Connor were close behind and the overall effort from Hull was recognised by the fans at the game.  Great to see Cameron Scott cross the whitewash.  That will have given him confidence.  Wellsby (what a talent) and Knowles showed their real class for Saints.

Completely agree on the two parts in bold - which are linked. We were on the ropes. A bit more composure and patience and I have no doubt you would have scored in that set. 

Satae is outstanding. Really enjoying watching him play. It was him, Sao, Mau et al that really dragged you back into the game to give Connor a bit of a platform to play off. 

Agreed on Welsby and Knowles; the latter is simply awesome. Not the biggest but massive heart, effort and quality pretty much every time he takes the field. 

[dkw]

8 minutes ago, Waynebennettswinger said:

No he and his Wigan buddies are just trolling don’t bring common sense in to this.

I'm sure it's just a massive coincidence that it's Wigan fans on here (mainly) that are upset by this.....

[Padge]

2 minutes ago, dkw said:

I'm sure it's just a massive coincidence that it's Wigan fans on here (mainly) that are upset by this.....

Check my posting history.

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Lowdesert said:

Well done to Saints in what proved to be an enthralling contest.  Final score didn’t reflect the closeness of the battle. Took their chances first half and imo that was the difference with the fatigue created towards the end of the match just a bit too much for Hull to convert their momentum into a winning score after getting back to a 3 point game.  

Disappointed, obviously, but we were left to rue the same traits that cost us last year. Patience close to the line and counting heads in defence.  I don’t know if it’s a communication issue (I think it is) but Grace first try had Fonua’s side overloaded for far too long before he scored.  That shouldn’t have happened so early and I believe Connors pass out into Graces hands, which killed the game, wasn’t really on.  Time and momentum was still on our side.

Never the less I thought Satae was tremendous.  Houghton, Ma’u and Connor were close behind and the overall effort from Hull was recognised by the fans at the game.  Great to see Cameron Scott cross the whitewash.  That will have given him confidence.  Wellsby (what a talent) and Knowles showed their real class for Saints.

Commiserations and Hull fans thoughts will be with Josh Griffin though.  I hope the prognosis isn’t as serious as it might be.  My best wishes to him for a full recovery as soon as possible.  

 

 

On Connor, him moving into the attacking line was what kicked Hull on I thought, made a huge difference over when he was stood out behind it as a full back. Mainly because Reynolds was doing nothing at all in the attack, so Connor taking a bigger part was great to see. But those 3 minutes summed him perfectly.  Great 40/20, gobbled off at a Saints player for no reason then threw a stupid pass. He's such a brilliant player but his head is his biggest problem.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

You obviously don't understand the law and the reason for it.

Of course I understand it.  Here are all of the other sections under misdconduct.

(a) trips, kicks or strikes another player.

(b) when effecting or attempting to effect a tackle makes contact with the head or neck of an opponent intentionally, recklessly or carelessly.

(c) drops knees first on to an opponent who is on the ground

(d) uses any dangerous throw when effecting a tackle.

(e) deliberately and continuously breaks the Laws of the Game.

(f) uses offensive or obscene language.

(g) disputes a decision of the Referee or Touch Judge.

(h) re-enters the field of play without the permission of the Referee or a Touch Judge having previously temporarily retired from the game.

(j) deliberately obstructs an opponent who is not in possession.

All of these are acts of foul play or are abuse of another player or the referee.  And then, in order to have a 'catch all' for other types of misconduct, they have included (i) behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game.

I will say once again, you cannot describe a player scoring a try as misconduct.

Look, we may have felt that the Saints team were acting in an unsporting manner scoring that try (but as you can see from all the posts on here, that is debatable).  But you simply cannot ask a referee to strike off a try that was scored legally because he felt it was unsporting.  Surely you can see this?

[MZH]

I aren't going to be too critical of Fages, you have to play to the whistle and he took the opportunity that was presented. I'd like to think in that position I would have stopped playing, but its very easy to say that now. In a big game with so much on the line and in the heat of the moment I probably wouldn't have done.

Celebrating the try left a bit of a sour taste though. That was the classless part.

[Padge]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Of course I understand it.  Here are all of the other sections under misdconduct.

(a) trips, kicks or strikes another player.

(b) when effecting or attempting to effect a tackle makes contact with the head or neck of an opponent intentionally, recklessly or carelessly.

(c) drops knees first on to an opponent who is on the ground

(d) uses any dangerous throw when effecting a tackle.

(e) deliberately and continuously breaks the Laws of the Game.

(f) uses offensive or obscene language.

(g) disputes a decision of the Referee or Touch Judge.

(h) re-enters the field of play without the permission of the Referee or a Touch Judge having previously temporarily retired from the game.

(j) deliberately obstructs an opponent who is not in possession.

All of these are acts of foul play or are abuse of another player or the referee.  And then, in order to have a 'catch all' for other types of misconduct, they have included (i) behaves in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game.

I will say once again, you cannot describe a player scoring a try as misconduct.

Look, we may have felt that the Saints team were acting in an unsporting manner scoring that try (but as you can see from all the posts on here, that is debatable).  But you simply cannot ask a referee to strike off a try that was scored legally because he felt it was unsporting.  Surely you can see this?

Scoring the try is not the problem, how many times do people have to post this, Fage did not break any laws of the game by actually scoring. It is the taking advantage of a seriously injured player where the problem is.

[MZH]

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

On Connor, him moving into the attacking line was what kicked Hull on I thought, made a huge difference over when he was stood out behind it as a full back. Mainly because Reynolds was doing nothing at all in the attack, so Connor taking a bigger part was great to see. But those 3 minutes summed him perfectly.  Great 40/20, gobbled off at a Saints player for no reason then threw a stupid pass. He's such a brilliant player but his head is his biggest problem.

That's the frustrating thing with Connor. His interception ultimately cost us the game, but then we probably wouldn't have got back into the game I'm the first place without him.

[dkw]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

Scoring the try is not the problem, how many times do people have to post this, Fage did not break any laws of the game by actually scoring. It is the taking advantage of a seriously injured player where the problem is.

So you would have the same problem if a team ran at an obviously injured player in a defensive line, took advantage of it and scored a try?

[dkw]

1 minute ago, MZH said:

That's the frustrating thing with Connor. His interception ultimately cost us the game, but then we probably wouldn't have got back into the game I'm the first place without him.

I actually think some of the grief he's getting is a bit wrong, he had to try and make something happen with time running out. It's hard to keep composure when you see an opportunity and a gap with 4 minutes to go in a semi final I bet.

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Padge said:

Scoring the try is not the problem, how many times do people have to post this, Fage did not break any laws of the game by actually scoring. It is the taking advantage of a seriously injured player where the problem is.

So your point is that any player who picks up a lost ball from a player who has suffered an injury should be penalised for misconduct?

[Davo5]

32 minutes ago, dkw said:

I'm sure it's just a massive coincidence that it's Wigan fans on here (mainly) that are upset by this.....

There is Wigan fans on here defending Fages too,mind.

[dkw]

Just now, Davo5 said:

There is Wigan fans on here defending Fages too,mind.

Yeah that's fair, buy I didn't say all Wigan fans ....

[Padge]

10 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

So your point is that any player who picks up a lost ball from a player who has suffered an injury should be penalised for misconduct?

It was totally obvious to the majority of people that this was not  run of the mill 'injury', the guy went down in total agony and could no longer care about possession, often in tackles when a player gets hurt the opposition call to the ref to stop the game.

Taking the score was wrong, it was a wrong that Saints could have put right.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Padge said:

It was totally obvious to the majority of people that this was not  run of the mill 'injury', the guy went down in total agony and could no longer care about possession, often in tackles when a player gets hurt the opposition call to the ref to stop the game.

Taking the score was wrong, it was a wrong that Saints could have put right.

But we are not talking about Saints putting it right are we, I have already said that it would have been a very sporting gesture if Saints had either stopped playing or if they had gifted Hull a try from the kick off.

Our discussion is whether the referee could have/should have disallowed the try (you brought this up by saying there was a law that would have allowed the referee to disallow the try).

Your point is that the referee could have/should have penalised Fages for misconduct for picking up the loose ball as the law you cite for behaving in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game is in the misconduct section.

You are now qualifying that by saying it was a serious injury.  In which case you are advocating for the referee to judge the severity of a players injury before deciding whether picking up a lost ball from an injured player is misconduct.  It is simply unrealistic.

If Griffin had taken the ball to ground then of course the referee would have immediately stopped the game.  But in the one or two seconds from Griffin releasing the ball and Fages picking it up and subsequently scoring, it is entirely unrealistic to suggest that the referee appraise the extent of the injury and penalise the St Helens player for misconduct for picking up the loose ball.

What you are expecting of the referee in this situation is just not possible.

[Padge]

Just now, Dunbar said:

But we are not talking about Saints putting it right are we, I have already said that it would have been a very sporting gesture if Saints had either stopped playing or if they had gifted Hull a try from the kick off.

Our discussion is whether the referee could have/should have disallowed the try (you brought this up by saying there was a law that would have allowed the referee to disallow the try).

Your point is that the referee could have/should have penalised Fages for misconduct for picking up the loose ball as the law you cite for behaving in any way contrary to the true spirit of the game is in the misconduct section.

You are now qualifying that by saying it was a serious injury.  In which case you are advocating for the referee to judge the severity of a players injury before deciding whether picking up a lost ball from an injured player is misconduct.  It is simply unrealistic.

If Griffin had taken the ball to ground then of course the referee would have immediately stopped the game.  But in the one or two seconds from Griffin releasing the ball and Fages picking it up and subsequently scoring, it is entirely unrealistic to suggest that the referee appraise the extent of the injury and penalise the St Helens player for misconduct for picking up the loose ball.

What you are expecting of the referee in this situation is just not possible.

It was within the refs power to disallow the try, some have claimed it was not. The ref could have disallowed it, but his problem then would have been he would have to give Hull a penalty, we would then be having an argument about why the ref had given a penalty for an unfortunate accident, I would sooner we were having that argument than one about really bad sportsmanship.