Top of the Table

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Your opinions are based on your own perceptions not on any actual real evidence.

If they are based on evidence i'd be grateful if you could actually share it with us on here

What counts as evidence in your eyes that allows someone to have a point of view?

 

4 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

and how many of those players are playing at SL level every week and are ready to play at international level and be able to give England a good close game ?

And how many English players can play at NRL level and give the Kangaroos a good close game.?

Long term goals and work take time.

As I pointed out we're still catching up from 1982!

 

10 minutes ago, PECETTO said:

There are currently 40 professionals french players. Most of them very yung. None 10years ago... 

No evidence will reach the target.

 

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Read my whole post.

Part of Catalans case for being admitted into SL was that they would be increasing the number of French players available for the National team to pick from, and hence be able to provide a competitive French team for England to play against.

You can't really blame Catalans for this, they're just playing to the rules set for them, but the RFL must certainly feel misled by the Dragons as they've failed to deliver on their promises for entry into the competition.

As i've already said, there's a quick & easy fix for this, make British & French players count as quota players for their respective countries.

In the 15 years Catalans have been around, over 100 full time French players have played in SL for both the Dragons and various UK clubs including Wigan and Saints. Can you give me another way over creating that many players from a country like France? 

Had there not been 100 full time French players (i.e had Catalans not existed) they would have nearly all be swallowed up by union and an Elite 1 French National team would be getting spanked by cricket scores.

[Saint Toppy]

30 minutes ago, Scubby said:

In the 15 years Catalans have been around, over 100 full time French players have played in SL for both the Dragons and various UK clubs including Wigan and Saints. Can you give me another way over creating that many players from a country like France? 

Had there not been 100 full time French players (i.e had Catalans not existed) they would have nearly all be swallowed up by union and an Elite 1 French National team would be getting spanked by cricket scores.

And the French National team isn't now !!!

Competitive matches between England & France over the last decade, Results;

44-6

48-4

34-6

36-6

44-6

The 'Friendlies' are even worse;

60-6

84-4

40-6

These are no better than the results from before Catalans inclusion into SL. The results don't lie, Catalans inclusion into SL hasn't improved their national team one bit.

[Saint Toppy]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

What counts as evidence in your eyes that allows someone to have a point of view?

 

Definition of Evidence - "Data on which to base proof or to establish truth".

So back to my previous question - can you actually provide any evidence ? without it its nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion and personal perception.

[Scubby]

14 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

And the French National team isn't now !!!

Competitive matches between England & France over the last decade, Results;

44-6

48-4

34-6

36-6

44-6

The 'Friendlies' are even worse;

60-6

84-4

40-6

These are no better than the results from before Catalans inclusion into SL. The results done lie, Catalans inclusion into SL hasn't improved their national team one bit.

It is not worth debating with you. Every country except France has selected heritage players since the inception of Catalans - even England/GB.

Not only do you want a single SL club to improve the French national team's results, you want them to combat numerous sides stacking their teams with heritage NRL and SL players.

England beat France 36-6 in the 2017 World Cup - the only major competition fixture these teams have played since 2013 (and then 2009). In 2013 it was 36-6 and then in 2009 4N it was 34-12 (France led at half time 12-4). How is that not about right given the resources of the 2 nations?

[Saint Toppy]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

It is not worth debating with you. Every country except France has selected heritage players since the inception of Catalans - even England/GB.

Not only do you want a single SL club to improve the French national team's results, you want them to combat numerous sides stacking their teams with heritage NRL and SL players.

England beat France 36-6 in the 2017 World Cup - the only competition fixture these teams have played since 2013 (and then 2009). In 2013 it was 36-6 and then in 2009 it was 34-12 (France led at half time 12-4). How is that not about right given the resources of the 2 nations?

Your just dreaming up excuses instead of accepting the facts !

[Scubby]

13 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Your just dreaming up excuses instead of accepting the facts !

Melbourne Storm have only had a couple of players from Victoria (population 6+m) in 22 years of being in the NRL. Do they need a quota too? Shouldn't Victoria be in State of Origin after all this time or were they just playing the best players to help them win the NRL?

[Dave T]

Catalans have brought more French players into SL than ever. They are doing their bit.

They don't manage the French National Team, who are generally still useless. That isn't Catalans' job.

[Scubby]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Catalans have brought more French players into SL than ever. They are doing their bit.

They don't manage the French National Team, who are generally still useless. That isn't Catalans' job.

For a time it was Richard Agar's and Bobbie Goulding's  

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

For a time it was Richard Agar's and Bobbie Goulding's  

Aye, and that is a big part of the issue isn't it. France have never really behaved like a nation that takes internationals seriously. 

[Gooleboy]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Catalans have brought more French players into SL than ever. They are doing their bit.

They don't manage the French National Team, who are generally still useless. That isn't Catalans' job.

Agreed, it isn't Catalans responsibility, but the National Side are as bad as they have ever been. There hasn't been any improvement for years.

[PECETTO]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Your just dreaming up excuses instead of accepting the facts !

Why am i suddenly tired when i read your posts ?.... are you négative for everything or only whith the french ? 

[Oxford]

1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Definition of Evidence - "Data on which to base proof or to establish truth".

So back to my previous question - can you actually provide any evidence ? without it its nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion and personal perception.

That wasn't an answer to my question.

You never said well I watch lots of French RL and I think it's rubbish. So I assume you don't or you're just very negative or both.

49 minutes ago, Dave T said:

France have never really behaved like a nation that takes internationals seriously. 

Like by creating the World Cup Dave?

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

These are no better than the results from before Catalans inclusion into SL. The results don't lie, Catalans inclusion into SL hasn't improved their national team one bit.

If Wigan were the only English side in SL do you think the International team would improve?

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

That wasn't an answer to my question.

You never said well I watch lots of French RL and I think it's rubbish. So I assume you don't or you're just very negative or both.

Like by creating the World Cup Dave?

Sorry, I did mean during the modern era. 

[Oxford]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Sorry, I did mean during the modern era. 

I can understand why you think that, to me the French are desperate for international games. Having Catalan as the only side so that their team is completely decimated by tests was always going to be a problem and just further proof that the game is reactive not proactive.

The problem with RL is that as a sport it is far too easy for one side to be dominant in a match, and the only time our game looks complete rubbish. We all know that only by playing the Aussies can we eventuall beat them in a series but 1) the road is Lo-o-ong ( with nice music ) and 2) actually getting the team you need to play to turn up.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

That argument was put forward as a reason for admitting Catalans in the first place - improve the french game, improve their national side, provide england with competition etc. etc... Whether your a fan of Catalans or not you can't deny that none of that has happened since their inclusion into SL.

As others have said the club's main focus is in winning trophies and for them if they think the best way to do that is to have the majority of their team made up of Brits & antipodeans then thats what they'll do because thats what the rules allow them to do.

Catalans is yet another example of the RFL having a good idea and good intentions but pi$$ poorly managing it. If they were entered into SL on the basis of improving the french game, national team etc. then rules should have been put in place to ensure that happened after a certain 'grace period' after entry.

The RFL didn't put those rules in place so really whats the point in having Catalans in SL or indeed whats the point of trying to get another french team into SL like Toulouse as they'll likely just follow the same path and fill their team with Brits & Antipodeans once they get in.

The only way round this is to make Brits Quota players for french clubs and vice versa. That way they'll have no choice other than to have a dozen french players in their 17 every week instead of the 5 or 6 they do now.

Add Toulouse into the equation and all of a sudden you have 24+ french players playing at the top level week in week out and the French national team position soon becomes a more viable opposition for England.

Totally 100% agree, but don't  even consider the caveat of protected from relegation.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Aye, and that is a big part of the issue isn't it. France have never really behaved like a nation that takes internationals seriously. 

Good point, and on these pages I was lambasted for saying the games at LSV were completely a shambles, it was not just the French system but the higher  profile French player's themselves who could not be bothered to play for their country.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, PECETTO said:

Why am i suddenly tired when i read your posts ?.... are you négative for everything or only whith the french ? 

The truth hurts sometimes, just bury your head in the sand it may eventually improve in France, but to do so the French themselves need to take the game seriously and grow from within.

[Exiled Wiganer]

3 hours ago, Oxford said:

If Wigan were the only English side in SL do you think the International team would improve?

Yes, of course it would. 

I would much prefer it if 1) we knew what the point/aim of having a French team in SL is and 2) they had to field more French players than they do. I would not have thought they are insane aspirations. 

[Gooleboy]

3 hours ago, PECETTO said:

Why am i suddenly tired when i read your posts ?.... are you négative for everything or only whith the french ? 

Despite what you may think, in my opinion the majority of RL Fans on here would love to see French RL get stronger both domestically and at International Level. I personally have fond memories of attending GB v France fixtures in the 60s and 70s, they were ferocious battles. I have no problem with the two French Clubs being in our game at all. I do disagree with any automatic promotion or being protected from relegation though. If Toulouse win the Championship good luck to them in SL, they will have got there on merit. As for their influence on the domestic game in France and securing TV Deals and creating more interest in the Country, only time will tell. As always though, getting financial investment into the French game and spreading in to the big Cities will be very difficult against the power of Rugby Union.

[Oxford]

21 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Yes, of course it would. 

I would much prefer it if 1) we knew what the point/aim of having a French team in SL is and 2) they had to field more French players than they do. I would not have thought they are insane aspirations. 

Not insane but maybe not so reasonable. If we want to limit the French side only because we want more French players of quality then we have to apply that to English sides too.

If there were more french sides there might be a fighting chance that this would work but I don't think that's what this is about or the whole thing being on Catalan's shoulders would be treated as illogical.

Someone above quoted tests from 60s and 70s but a great many conditions were different then both sides being pro-am being one of them.

And to be honest this is pointless if Catalans are to be France which is in effect what's being put forward.

 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

I can understand why you think that, to me the French are desperate for international games.

I'm not sure they are, but I accept it may all be chicken and egg. They haven't really created an elite national setup, that should be feeding off the work that Catalans, Toulouse and others do. 

Pound for pound I'd suggest France are the weakest RL test nation around, they underperform almost every tournament versus some of the other nations who outperform their level. They should have romped every European Championship they played in when England haven't been present, but they've managed to balls that up and lost out on two major Four Nations tournaments to Wales and Scotland due to their incompetence. 

I'd love them to get their act together, but a lot of this has to come from within, the RFL is not responsible for the development of French RL. 

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure they are, but I accept it may all be chicken and egg. They haven't really created an elite national setup, that should be feeding off the work that Catalans, Toulouse and others do. 

Pound for pound I'd suggest France are the weakest RL test nation around, they underperform almost every tournament versus some of the other nations who outperform their level. They should have romped every European Championship they played in when England haven't been present, but they've managed to balls that up and lost out on two major Four Nations tournaments to Wales and Scotland due to their incompetence. 

I'd love them to get their act together, but a lot of this has to come from within, the RFL is not responsible for the development of French RL. 

We're very much working along the same lines Dave, but the conclusions we arrive at are very different.

If it's made no progress with the Dragons in there there are only three outcomes get rid of 'em, get more of 'em or stop talking about 'em.

[Saint Toppy]

17 hours ago, Scubby said:

Melbourne Storm have only had a couple of players from Victoria (population 6+m) in 22 years of being in the NRL. Do they need a quota too? Shouldn't Victoria be in State of Origin after all this time or were they just playing the best players to help them win the NRL?

Australia dont have a ###### national team and have strong southern hemisphere opposition to play against if they want to - so whats your point about Melbourne ?

For those of you that keep conveniently ignoring it - Catalans were parachuted into SL on the promise of producing a lot more French players and improving their national team so that they could provide England with a strong northern hemisphere opposition.

They've failed to deliver on this promise, instead choosing to pack their team with Brits and antipodeans

So whats the point of having a French team in SL ? why not just have another British based club.

If its about expansion then we could just have London, Newcastle, Coventry etc.

None of the British clubs benefit from having Catalans in SL, certainly not from a financial perspective and the sum total of about 10 away fans they bring to UK games.

The only benefit of having French clubs in SL is for the improvement of their national team and England, and this is something Catalans aren't delivering on, so why bother having them at all.