Thu 17 Jun: SL: St Helens v Warrington Wolves KO 19:45 (TV)

[Barry Badrinath]

52 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Saints have a gameplan thats hard to stop, some saints fans (me included) find it a bit dull but its effective. In my opinion the referee let warrington stop this gameplan unfairly.. I get warrington fans may think otherwise but warrington didnt outplay saints, just stopped saints from playing by gamesmanship, 

so, the other times we've beat you in recent years, did we do this as well, or did we just get up in walmsleys face, smash him, and not get suckered in to lomax and fages stepping against backrowers.

[Barry Badrinath]

54 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Saints have a gameplan thats hard to stop, some saints fans (me included) find it a bit dull but its effective. In my opinion the referee let warrington stop this gameplan unfairly.. I get warrington fans may think otherwise but warrington didnt outplay saints, just stopped saints from playing by gamesmanship, 

dupe

[yipyee]

7 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

so, the other times we've beat you in recent years, did we do this as well, or did we just get up in walmsleys face, smash him, and not get suckered in to lomax and fages stepping against backrowers.

What about the header from gelling?

[VelvetSpring]

Saints poor tonight and 6-2 probably reflected the game perfectly. Wire knew what they needed to do, I.e slow the ruck, meet the line fast, prevent gain, and through effort and, all must admit, a bit of gamesmanship at the turnover, they achieved that without ever looking like they’d run away with the game but not looking like they’d lose either.

It has been coming for Saints, despite recent victories they are their own worst enemy for letting teams into/back into games (cite Hull and Leeds in the cup) and not possessing the cutting edge to kill a team off where the quality of individuals should make certain games a breeze (cite Leigh in the league particularly and probably every game this season to a degree).

Many Saints fans will blame Woolf on nights like this pointing to boring tactics and whilst there’s not much champagne about their play since he came in their defence has been solid, as it was tonight apart from one lapse in concentration, and when they apply sustained pressure the opposition more often than not fold (cite numerous repeat drubbings of Leeds, Catalans, and Wakefield last season). They didn’t do that tonight, not through tactical shortfalls, but through bad final play ball with successively conceding 7 tackle sets from poor kicking or knock on/loose carries and penalties from PTB infringements. Yes the attack looked dull without any sign of ingenuity but the Warrington defence was allowed to stay resolute, keeping the ruck slow, and meeting the line with energy as no significant pressure was applied for 80 minutes, let alone 10 really. 

If you don’t respect your ball you don’t win games. Simple. Learn from it, don’t do it again, and Saints will go 3 in a row. This result could be the wake up they need...

[Oxford]

I love it when teams are accused of slowing the play down and it's funny the way that works.

The other side is the expectation not to be on the wrong side of decisions and being able to handle it when you do.

 

[Old Frightful]

9 hours ago, dkw said:

They weren't booing the injury though.

No.

I think they were booing because, in their mind, any injured player is supposed to give them the ball to score.

[Vambo]

8 hours ago, Chris22 said:

In an attempt to turn the conversation away from straw clutching, was that a really good game or really bad game?

I'm honestly not sure what I think. Thought it was quite tense towards the end but wonder what the neutral view was?

As far as I'm concerned... any game that Saints lose is a good game

[M j M]

8 hours ago, Barry Badrinath said:

I've just had a nosey on the redvee saints forum, it's quite a toxic venue, and many share yipyee's view, sadly.

A few others do think that's them making excuses for saints poor attacking performances under Wolfe.

Of all the RL forums I look at redvee is by far the most toxic, dominated by people who appear to have deeply unpleasant, aggressive views on anything and everything, including far right politics. I can see why even the people on there are worried about what's happened to it.

But from what I can tell they still haven't got over losing that cup final to Warrington a couple of years ago and still inexplicably bleat on about being screwed over by Hicks. It's a coping strategy I guess and I suppose it looks like we have a similar issue here. 

After all "the S" couldn't possibly lose to a bunch of chokers like the Wire could they? So there has to be some alternative explanation. At least Woolfe wasn't busy making excuses last night.

[Old Frightful]

18 minutes ago, M j M said:

At least Woolfe wasn't busy making excuses last night.

"Why would I...we won!"

[CiderWire]

Caught the last 2 mins on the radio. In between applying field dressings to the tips of my fingers, it was encouraging to hear the commentators express that although the scoreboard was light in numbers the endeavour and intensity of the game was beyond reproach.  Happy with the result, happy with Wires defensive attitude, now just need to tweak the attack by all accounts.

[Faithful1865]

A real battle and won by a team who were prepared to put all of their effort in to stopping the opposition. Saints looked clueless in the face of some terrific defending and for me its Well done wire.

[Cheshire Setter]

38 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

"Why would I...we won!"

Whatever has happened to Wolfie? Used to see him get dragged out every week. I guess he’s getting on a bit now, 25 human years is how many dog years? Must cost a fortune in vet’s bills to stop him involuntarily peeing over the carpet in the director’s  lounge?

[M j M]

11 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Whatever has happened to Wolfie? Used to see him get dragged out every week. I guess he’s getting on a bit now, 25 human years is how many dog years? Must cost a fortune in vet’s bills to stop him involuntarily peeing over the carpet in the director’s  lounge?

He's a wolf not a dog !

Gone quiet on twitter as well. Hope he's not succumbed to the virus.

[Saint Toppy]

That match was an almost carbon copy of the Catalans game and my comments after that game hold true for this one.

Woolf only appears interested in defensive structure because since he took over Saints attacking plays have gone completely. Regardless of who they are playing its the same plays every week. When they're not close to the opposition line its monotonous, drive up the middle winger or centre, drive up the middle winger or centre, drop off play, drop off play, drive up the middle, Fages kick (occasionally Coote) - repeat !

When they get near the opposition try line they only have 2 plays, a shortside with a cut out pass to the winger, or an openside play with a forward dummy runner who fools nobody with an out the back pass (usually to Coote) who then throws a cut out pass to the winger - Repeat !!!

Decent defensive teams like Wire & Catalans can reads these plays like a book and easily shut them down. Jeeze if fans like me with no professional experience can see these plays then they're easy for an opposition to pick out and close down. 

Its not the loss that most Saints fans are unhappy about, its the boring, predictable style of play under Woolf, its like having Cunningham back again.

Its not helped by some of the players not being anywhere near their best either. Coote looks like he doesn't want to be here and return to Oz, he's massively underperforming from where he's been at the last 2 years, Naiquama is probably one of the worst defensive centres in SL, his reading of plays is awful and he often ends up tackling nobody and leaving his wingman exposed. I feel sorry for Makinson having such a poor defender inside him. Fages did his usual defensive stint but was hopeless in attack, cant remember him taking the line on once all night. Amor is just plain awful and should never have got a contract extension for this year. I said a month or so ago the jury was still out on Thompson, well I think the verdict is well & truly in now, he's just a donkey plodder who offers nothing going forward at all. Its just a pity all our other 2nd row options are out with long term injuries (Bentley and the 2 promising youngsters Wingfield & Foster). Although given Bentley's leaving i'd rather give one of the 2 kids a go when they're fit again to drop Thompson.

Overall, can't argue with the result from last night, Warrington were the best team, they leave with 2 league points and a hat full of acting Oscars (either that or Jesus has joined the backroom staff at Wire given the number of goal line injures they had that all made miraculous recoveries once the team had a rest and reset their defensive line  )

[Dave T]

I do think we need to be careful in this country with the Aussie influence. Too many clubs are going down the defensive percentages route, and it will turn fans off. 

I enjoyed last night's game as it was a great battle between two of the best teams, but I dont want to see those tactics every week. 

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, yipyee said:

Bad, missed tackles, basic one up rugby, slow ruck, poor kicking on last, stopping the game pretending to be injured, poor refereeing to allow all of the above and more.

It livened up somewhat in the second half, but there was a period in the first half that in the duration of 7 consecutive sets apart from the ball being passed to the first reciever there were only 4 other passes, I laughed out loud when either Baz or Tez said how tense it was.

[Harry Stottle]

32 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

That match was an almost carbon copy of the Catalans game and my comments after that game hold true for this one.

Woolf only appears interested in defensive structure because since he took over Saints attacking plays have gone completely. Regardless of who they are playing its the same plays every week. When they're not close to the opposition line its monotonous, drive up the middle winger or centre, drive up the middle winger or centre, drop off play, drop off play, drive up the middle, Fages kick (occasionally Coote) - repeat !

When they get near the opposition try line they only have 2 plays, a shortside with a cut out pass to the winger, or an openside play with a forward dummy runner who fools nobody with an out the back pass (usually to Coote) who then throws a cut out pass to the winger - Repeat !!!

Decent defensive teams like Wire & Catalans can reads these plays like a book and easily shut them down. Jeeze if fans like me with no professional experience can see these plays then they're easy for an opposition to pick out and close down. 

Its not the loss that most Saints fans are unhappy about, its the boring, predictable style of play under Woolf, its like having Cunningham back again.

Its not helped by some of the players not being anywhere near their best either. Coote looks like he doesn't want to be here and return to Oz, he's massively underperforming from where he's been at the last 2 years, Naiquama is probably one of the worst defensive centres in SL, his reading of plays is awful and he often ends up tackling nobody and leaving his wingman exposed. I feel sorry for Makinson having such a poor defender inside him. Fages did his usual defensive stint but was hopeless in attack, cant remember him taking the line on once all night. Amor is just plain awful and should never have got a contract extension for this year. I said a month or so ago the jury was still out on Thompson, well I think the verdict is well & truly in now, he's just a donkey plodder who offers nothing going forward at all. Its just a pity all our other 2nd row options are out with long term injuries (Bentley and the 2 promising youngsters Wingfield & Foster). Although given Bentley's leaving i'd rather give one of the 2 kids a go when they're fit again to drop Thompson.

Overall, can't argue with the result from last night, Warrington were the best team, they leave with 2 league points and a hat full of acting Oscars (either that or Jesus has joined the backroom staff at Wire given the number of goal line injures they had that all made miraculous recoveries once the team had a rest and reset their defensive line  )

Excellent summing up Toppy.

[DoubleD]

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

The game was very very similar to last year's Grand Final. 

It did and that is the intensity required at the top level. Reminds me also of the World Cup Final - you only get a handful of opportunities in these games and you have to ice them. Unfortunately for Saints, they couldn't execute under immense pressure from Warrington. You want and need your top players playing in these games so they can learn how to execute in tight and high intensity games. 

[Harry Stottle]

29 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do think we need to be careful in this country with the Aussie influence. Too many clubs are going down the defensive percentages route, and it will turn fans off. 

I enjoyed last night's game as it was a great battle between two of the best teams, but I dont want to see those tactics every week. 

We have been seeing them everyweek here though Dave,once again we are trying to emulate what is happening down under but the difference is between here and in Aus, when a glimmer of opportunity presents itself to attack they have the players to take advantage with loads of skill and speed.

[Saint Toppy]

28 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

We have been seeing them everyweek here though Dave,once again we are trying to emulate what is happening down under but the difference is between here and in Aus, when a glimmer of opportunity presents itself to attack they have the players to take advantage with loads of skill and speed.

Agree completely. The Aussie coaches who come to SL inevitably get the SL teams to play like NRL teams, but that defence first mindset just isn't there in most British players as that isn't the way they've been coached all through their junior rugby.

We need to get away from just trying to emulate the NRL way and start playing to the strengths of our players instead of trying to mould them into poorer versions of NRL players. Maybe the only way round this is to have less Aussie coaches in SL, but I guess this will only happen if the coach gets counted on the quota like the players. 

[Cheshire Setter]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

 

I do think we need to be careful in this country with the Aussie influence. Too many clubs are going down the defensive percentages route, and it will turn fans off. 

 

 

Worse still, not attracting new fans. The sport won’t survive in this country relying on a loyal but declining small fan base.

In the mid-2000s when we had all that champagne rugby from Saints and Bradford with the summer carnival-like atmosphere the game was far better from a neutral’s or potential new fan’s perspective. 

[Saint Toppy]

9 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Worse still, not attracting new fans. The sport won’t survive in this country relying on a loyal but declining small fan base.

In the mid-2000s when we had all that champagne rugby from Saints and Bradford with the summer carnival-like atmosphere the game was far better from a neutral’s or potential new fan’s perspective. 

I have to admit I seriously considered giving up my season ticket when we had Cunningham as coach, I just wasn't enjoying watching the games anymore regardless of whether we won or lost. While i'm not quite at that point yet, if Woolf stays beyond this year then I do think i'll be having a serious think about whether to renew or not for 2022 or to just pick & choose to buy tickets for individual games.

So far this year we've played a dozen league & cup games and I can only think of the league game against Hull where the team has played anything like attractive rugby that i've enjoyed watching.

[Harry Stottle]

52 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Maybe the only way round this is to have less Aussie coaches in SL, but I guess this will only happen if the coach gets counted on the quota like the players. 

I have said this for years Toppy, I would have a maximum of 4 overseas player's at any club, if they are born and raised and learned their trade overseas then that is that, non of this residency rule carp, they are still overseas player's AND if an overseas coach is employed he becomes a part of the count.

Back in the 70's the Aussies placed an embargo on their clubs signing British talent, it was claimed that it was holding back the opportunity of their homegrown players, I would say that can be multiplied by a factor of 6 or 7 over here.

[Cheshire Setter]

45 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

I have to admit I seriously considered giving up my season ticket when we had Cunningham as coach, I just wasn't enjoying watching the games anymor

I guess we just got too focussed on competing at international level (which of course is important, but not at the expense of the sport’s popularity).

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

We have been seeing them everyweek here though Dave,once again we are trying to emulate what is happening down under but the difference is between here and in Aus, when a glimmer of opportunity presents itself to attack they have the players to take advantage with loads of skill and speed.

Hey, you don't need to tell me that, have you read any of my posts about the Steve Price-coached Wire team?