World Cup in Doubt…Again

[Dave T]

25 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

But we are still going to have WC`s every four years, and there would be nothing stopping you from having internationals whatever time of the year you felt was appropriate

 And due to the continued influx of New Zealander and Islander players into the NRL those teams are only going to get stronger and stronger ipso facto better more competitive World Cups that are going to get bigger and bigger.

Every week new players debut down here and I check out their profile, the amount of New Zealand born players coming into the NRL is staggering, two more for the Tigers this weekend.

If players have an end of year off after a WC year would that be so bad. As long as our club competitions are strong and our World Cup is worth waiting for, then perhaps sticking with that model wouldn`t be so bad until the day we can negotiate shorter club seasons and an expanded international calendar, bit like the union.

I genuinely think it's just an Aussie thing. In RL and Aussie Rules international sport has never been that important and they are huge in Australia. So having years with no internationals just doesn't seem to be a big thing. To much of the rest of the world it seems odd.

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I genuinely think it's just an Aussie thing. In RL and Aussie Rules international sport has never been that important and they are huge in Australia. So having years with no internationals just doesn't seem to be a big thing. To much of the rest of the world it seems odd.

Cricket is the biggest sport in Australia and is all about the national team; RU is kept alive by its international circuit (you could argue soccer in Oz is too).

It’s not necessarily even just an Aussie thing. Just a “people who are in charge of Aussie RL right now” thing.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Cricket is the biggest sport in Australia and is all about the national team; RU is kept alive by its international circuit (you could argue soccer in Oz is too).

It’s not necessarily even just an Aussie thing. Just a “people who are in charge of Aussie RL right now” thing.

I agree, it wasn't even necessarily a RL thing until the NRL started calling the shots.

[Rupert Prince]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I genuinely think it's just an Aussie thing. In RL and Aussie Rules international sport has never been that important and they are huge in Australia. So having years with no internationals just doesn't seem to be a big thing. To much of the rest of the world it seems odd.

They think Neighbours is Shakespeare. 

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Cricket is the biggest sport in Australia and is all about the national team; RU is kept alive by its international circuit (you could argue soccer in Oz is too).

It’s not necessarily even just an Aussie thing. Just a “people who are in charge of Aussie RL right now” thing.

Fair points, but that does stretch to the fans too, not just the administrators.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Fair points, but that does stretch to the fans too, not just the administrators.

Given the likelihood of Australia winning *and* the derisory attitude shown by the administrators I'm almost amazed anyone turns up these days.

[Jim from Oz]

10 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Cricket is the biggest sport in Australia and is all about the national team; RU is kept alive by its international circuit (you could argue soccer in Oz is too).

It’s not necessarily even just an Aussie thing. Just a “people who are in charge of Aussie RL right now” thing.

Precisely.

Australia ALWAYS played rugby league internationals every year before the idiotic super league war. And it always attracted huge ratings.

Also, as we have seen with English Premier League soccer, for example, you raise the profile of the game internationally and you attract fans from all over the world to your club competition. So the NRL clubs would benefit in the Longrun from greater international RL matches/ exposure.

But the NRL clubs are just  idiotically insular

 

[Sports Prophet]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

You haven't looked very hard. There are articles still now with quotes from V'landys and Blake Solly saying they wanted it postponed and still need reassurances. 

@Dave T do I really have to demonstrate the difference between the NRL and Blake Solly????? I’ve seen no quote from V’landys saying the NRL does not want to compete in the RLWC.

4 hours ago, Jim from Oz said:

Ditto here:

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/nrl/every-nation-has-signed-an-agreement-for-this-year-s-world-cup-bar-australia-20210702-p586cr.html?ref=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_source=rss_feed

nothing about the NRL. Certainly discussion that the NRL was under the pressure of influential clubs and RLPA (all of which are exceedingly larger organisations than SL and/or IRL) yet despite such pressure, the NRL have still committed.

 

[The Rocket]

45 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Cricket is the biggest sport in Australia and is all about the national team; RU is kept alive by its international circuit (you could argue soccer in Oz is too).

It’s not necessarily even just an Aussie thing. Just a “people who are in charge of Aussie RL right now” thing.

Absolutely spot on, soccer who can`t 10 000 for it`s domestic comp will get nearly a million for a big international against  a high profile competitor, union very similar, maybe half a million. It`s all about credibility, and unfortunately until Tonga beat Oz a couple of years ago international League has had just about zero. And it still doesn`t have a lot.

It`s going to take a while and it`s going to take the Australians being beaten on a regular basis for the wider public and most League fans to take it seriously once again and start coming back to the games like they did in the 80`s and previous to that.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Jim from Oz said:

 

Also, as we have seen with English Premier League soccer, for example, you raise the profile of the game internationally and you attract fans from all over the world to your club competition. So the NRL clubs would benefit in the Longrun from greater international RL matches/ exposure.

 

What a load of bananas. If you think the Premier League exploded because of an increase in fan exposure to international soccer, then you can’t be saved.

[Dave T]

18 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Absolutely spot on, soccer who can`t 10 000 for it`s domestic comp will get nearly a million for a big international against  a high profile competitor, union very similar, maybe half a million. It`s all about credibility, and unfortunately until Tonga beat Oz a couple of years ago international League has had just about zero. And it still doesn`t have a lot.

It`s going to take a while and it`s going to take the Australians being beaten on a regular basis for the wider public and most League fans to take it seriously once again and start coming back to the games like they did in the 80`s and previous to that.

 

We keep hearing about the Aussies needing to be beaten regularly - for the quality of their team, with so many legends, the Aussies have been absolute bottle boys for the last decade and a half. The Kiwis (a nation with one pro team) have beaten them in three Tri/Four Nations tournaments and one World Cup. They have lost four of the last 12 major tournaments. That is the worst return for quite a while. 

During this time great tournaments have been delivered, with some record crowds, including the biggest world cups ever, and Aussie's just moan that the international game has no credibility because Australia always win.

[Dr Tim Whatley]

40 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

What a load of bananas. If you think the Premier League exploded because of an increase in fan exposure to international soccer, then you can’t be saved.

I think he means an increase in exposure to fans around the world. In which case I make him right - it isn't just Sky and BT who pay eye-watering sums to show the Premier League. Broadcasters all over the world do likewise.

 

Fair to say though they the likes of Man Utd and Liverpool have a bit of a head start in terms of global exposure compared to (say) Wigan and St Helens.

[fighting irish]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

................  But sometimes you just have to do the right things.

If the Australians don't value competing in the World Cup, then let them out of it.

We, the entire northern hemisphere and all the Pacific Nations (NZ included), Africa and Asia can go ahead without them.

Let's build an International calendar and grow it until their exclusion becomes a thorn in their flesh, then we can let them back in.

It's still a World Cup, even if they don't enter it.

The potential benefits to all competing Nations are immense so the show must/should go on.

If $5 million is small change to them, well so be it, it would mean an enormous benefit to us, or the French say (or any other Nation for that matter). 

The Olympics continues, without the circus strong men, the trapeze artists, the acrobats and jugglers, doesn't it?

Horses for courses. I thought the tournament participants were assembled by invitation.

 

[The Rocket]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

 

We keep hearing about the Aussies needing to be beaten regularly - for the quality of their team, with so many legends, the Aussies have been absolute bottle boys for the last decade and a half. The Kiwis (a nation with one pro team) have beaten them in three Tri/Four Nations tournaments and one World Cup. They have lost four of the last 12 major tournaments. That is the worst return for quite a while. 

During this time great tournaments have been delivered, with some record crowds, including the biggest world cups ever, and Aussie's just moan that the international game has no credibility because Australia always win.

That`s a really interesting observation, because I for one, who never misses an international, certainly fall in to that category.

I remember when the Kiwis won the WC and beat us in the  Four Nations around the same time, for the first time in a long time I got excited about International Rugby League. The Kiwi team was full of exciting attacking players, Toopi, Meli, Vagana, Ali Lautiti, who could forget him, and crucially they had a world class game breaker half-back Benji. I thought they were going to match us and beat us for years.

So why did I stop getting excited about them, the answer can only be, with out going back over the records, is that they haven`t matched us consistently enough,  and they were a joke at the last WC. International League doesn`t have enough participants at the highest level for one of the main ones to go missing. Soccer might get away with that, even union.

And unfortunately mate, no offence, England hasn`t seriously challenged us for a long time. Even beating them in the last WC final would have been seen by many as predictable, despite the close score.

The whole situation would be helped when other countries rise up and threaten, like hopefully a couple of the Pacific nations are threatening. Honestly there is nothing I would enjoy more than seeing the Australians starting to be knocked out in the semi-final stages of tournaments, because that would mean the other sides are bloody good.

I suppose when a team has been dominant for a long time it is going take a while for the pendulum to swing the other way before we start giving international League the attention it deserves again.

That`s the best and most honest appraisal I can give at short notice to try to explain the apathy that many Australians, League fans and otherwise have.

 

 

 

[Davo5]

10 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

That`s a really interesting observation, because I for one, who never misses an international, certainly fall in to that category.

I remember when the Kiwis won the WC and beat us in the  Four Nations around the same time, for the first time in a long time I got excited about International Rugby League. The Kiwi team was full of exciting attacking players, Toopi, Meli, Vagana, Ali Lautiti, who could forget him, and crucially they had a world class game breaker half-back Benji. I thought they were going to match us and beat us for years.

So why did I stop getting excited about them, the answer can only be, with out going back over the records, is that they haven`t matched us consistently enough,  and they were a joke at the last WC. International League doesn`t have enough participants at the highest level for one of the main ones to go missing. Soccer might get away with that, even union.

And unfortunately mate, no offence, England hasn`t seriously challenged us for a long time. Even beating them in the last WC final would have been seen by many as predictable, despite the close score.

The whole situation would be helped when other countries rise up and threaten, like hopefully a couple of the Pacific nations are threatening. Honestly there is nothing I would enjoy more than seeing the Australians starting to be knocked out in the semi-final stages of tournaments, because that would mean the other sides are bloody good.

I suppose when a team has been dominant for a long time it is going take a while for the pendulum to swing the other way before we start giving international League the attention it deserves again.

That`s the best and most honest appraisal I can give at short notice to try to explain the apathy that many Australians, League fans and otherwise have.

 

 

 

And yet they didn’t exhibit that apathy during Queensland’s decade of dominance.

[The Rocket]

28 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

If the Australians don't value competing in the World Cup, then let them out of it.

We, the entire northern hemisphere and all the Pacific Nations (NZ included), Africa and Asia can go ahead without them.

Let's build an International calendar and grow it until their exclusion becomes a thorn in their flesh, then we can let them back in.

It's still a World Cup, even if they don't enter it.

The potential benefits to all competing Nations are immense so the show must/should go on.

If $5 million is small change to them, well so be it, it would mean an enormous benefit to us, or the French say (or any other Nation for that matter). 

The Olympics continues, without the circus strong men, the trapeze artists, the acrobats and jugglers, doesn't it?

Horses for courses. I thought the tournament participants were assembled by invitation.

 

You know what Irish, one of the games I always look forward to most at the WC is England vs. New Zealand, I would loved to have watched the Kiwis tour there a few years back, because they are usually so well matched up.

A World Cup without Oz, these days, what an appealing prospect, could be anyone of five, maybe more, what a prospect.

I`m not offended by your post at all, and I would love it, tell you what though, the players would kick up an absolute stink once they started missing out. Sitting back here in OZ while Tonga played England in front of 75 000 at old Trafford in a WC and the winner crowned world champion.

 

[Damien]

Some more detail here:

World Cup players and officials could quarantine at Sydney Olympic Park hotels and potentially be allowed exclusive use of their facilities as part of a plan to ensure the tournament will proceed.

The World Cup organising committee will confirm on Thursday plans for the tournament to go ahead despite resistance from NRL clubs, who will supply the majority of players.

One of the big sticking points is how hundreds of players and officials would serve the mandatory two-week isolation period upon returning to the southern hemisphere.

But the Herald has been told by sources familiar with the tournament logistics that the Accor hotel group with accommodation at Olympic Park is a preferred option rather than the traditional hotels used to bring stranded Australians home.

Earlier this week, Australia was the only the country yet to sign a participation agreement for this year’s World Cup. The Rugby League Players Association said individual players should be given the choice of whether they want to travel for the tournament.

Rugby League World Cup 2021: Defending champions Australia only country yet to sign participation agreement (smh.com.au)

[The Rocket]

5 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

And yet they didn’t exhibit that apathy during Queensland’s decade of dominance.

Just impossible to compare that, Queensland perennial underdogs always winning, nearly every series coming down to the wire, once in a generation players on display.

 If international League had been like that year in, year out, replace QLD with NZ, or anyone for that matter, they`d be packing out any stadium anywhere, bigger than Bledisloe, bigger than Ben Hur.

[fighting irish]

4 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

You know what Irish, one of the games I always look forward to most at the WC is England vs. New Zealand, I would loved to have watched the Kiwis tour there a few years back, because they are usually so well matched up.

A World Cup without Oz, these days, what an appealing prospect, could be anyone of five, maybe more, what a prospect.

I`m not offended by your post at all, and I would love it, tell you what though, the players would kick up an absolute stink once they started missing out. Sitting back here in OZ while Tonga played England in front of 75 000 at old Trafford in a WC and the winner crowned world champion.

 

Ha ha ha Rocket, this one was created with my tongue in cheek.

Part of the fun of this forum is the bear baiting aspect of it.

I'd much prefer to have the Aussies in it, but the point stands, that if they'd rather not, we could go ahead without them.

It would also introduce a little more uncertainty about the eventual outcome.

The winners would still be World Champions and I'm sure the players, sitting at home in Oz would be green (and gold) with envy.

I reckon it would only take one round, without them, before they wanted to be back in the fold.

The Australian national ego wouldn't tolerate it any longer than that. 

Or even before that, they'd be throwing down the gauntlet to the winners in a post WC (mega bucks) challenge match! 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

That`s a really interesting observation, because I for one, who never misses an international, certainly fall in to that category.

I remember when the Kiwis won the WC and beat us in the  Four Nations around the same time, for the first time in a long time I got excited about International Rugby League. The Kiwi team was full of exciting attacking players, Toopi, Meli, Vagana, Ali Lautiti, who could forget him, and crucially they had a world class game breaker half-back Benji. I thought they were going to match us and beat us for years.

So why did I stop getting excited about them, the answer can only be, with out going back over the records, is that they haven`t matched us consistently enough,  and they were a joke at the last WC. International League doesn`t have enough participants at the highest level for one of the main ones to go missing. Soccer might get away with that, even union.

And unfortunately mate, no offence, England hasn`t seriously challenged us for a long time. Even beating them in the last WC final would have been seen by many as predictable, despite the close score.

The whole situation would be helped when other countries rise up and threaten, like hopefully a couple of the Pacific nations are threatening. Honestly there is nothing I would enjoy more than seeing the Australians starting to be knocked out in the semi-final stages of tournaments, because that would mean the other sides are bloody good.

I suppose when a team has been dominant for a long time it is going take a while for the pendulum to swing the other way before we start giving international League the attention it deserves again.

That`s the best and most honest appraisal I can give at short notice to try to explain the apathy that many Australians, League fans and otherwise have.

 

 

 

I appreciate where you are coming from, however in reality I don't think it really is backed up with evidence. Obviously yiu are giving your personal view, and I'm sure it is a view that some people share, but it doesn't seem to be the biggest factor. 

For starters, dominant International teams in other sports can still do very well, they can still pack out events at home and abroad. 

Secondly, we have seen that when the Aussies put on a decent event and stage it well, they can get good crowds in. Some of the crowds for Aus v NZ games, and a few of the 4N games have done really well and we have seen over 30k and into the 40's. 

We saw an amazing World Cup Final in 2008, packed in Brisbane, with Oz losing. The Kiwis then also beat them in a couple of 4N tournament finals (although the Aussies won the 2013 WC), and England came within a VR decision of beating the Aussies in Melbourne. There were some outstanding international games between the mid-00's and the mid-10's - very very competitive, but by the time we got to the 2017 WC the Aussie part was once again very lacklustre, with a low opener and Final crowd. 

That suggests that it isn't competitiveness that is the driver, but maybe we'll organised tournaments. It is the same in the UK. We can go from 45k versus the Kiwis in one series to 17k the next. 

Staging great events and doing them well is far more important than competitive games IMHO. 

[Barley Mow]

56 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

...one of the games I always look forward to most at the WC is England vs. New Zealand...

 

Let's hope you get to see it at this WC then - They can't meet before the final!

[Jim from Oz]

12 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

What a load of bananas. If you think the Premier League exploded because of an increase in fan exposure to international soccer, then you can’t be saved.

Yes, we have no bananas ! 

Sorry, I could have expressed my comment better. I meant:

English Premier League soccer has massive reach and support internationally.

The NRL has negligible international reach and support.

RL is general has negligible international reach and support.

If we had a well promoted, stable, sensible international RL calendar, RL's popularity and profile would grow internationally – and the NRL, being a premier, high-quality RL competition, could use that increased international RL profile to attract fans from all over the world to watch/follow/stream/have interest in/support its competition.

So hopefully now I can be saved. 

[ghost crayfish]

A generally overlooked part of Australian apathy towards international rugby league is its timing: a lot of people simply stop watching rugby league after the grand final. Even last year's state of origin TV ratings dipped considerably. That is added to other factors like poor organisation, lack of consistent competitiveness over what is now generations and the fact clubs are so hostile to it (because unlike origin, it doesn't make them money). Here's hoping the world cup is a massive success and beyond that, a proper well organised international schedule is set in stone.

Personally, I think a single standalone international weekend after the origin series is essential. Suddenly the origin series becomes a high profile, six week ad for test football, as players compete for test selection. Then that test weekend becomes a high profile ad for the post season tests to follow.

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, ghost crayfish said:

A generally overlooked part of Australian apathy towards international rugby league is its timing: a lot of people simply stop watching rugby league after the grand final. Even last year's state of origin TV ratings dipped considerably. That is added to other factors like poor organisation, lack of consistent competitiveness over what is now generations and the fact clubs are so hostile to it (because unlike origin, it doesn't make them money). Here's hoping the world cup is a massive success and beyond that, a proper well organised international schedule is set in stone.

Personally, I think a single standalone international weekend after the origin series is essential. Suddenly the origin series becomes a high profile, six week ad for test football, as players compete for test selection. Then that test weekend becomes a high profile ad for the post season tests to follow.

Mid season International matches are vital, I've said it before and I'm sure I will say it again. 

End of season are fine but anyone who gets interested in the sport due to watching the internationals have nowhere to go for their RL fix for 3+ months. Mid season you can easily say, now watch this match next weekend. Then you have them.. it would help sky too.. watch one on BBC but with sky pushing the next matches etc (they'd probably prefer itv or Channel 4 and have an advert for the next round of super league in the break). 

They are a must, with the end if season being for a tour style set up or world cup. 

[Damien]

30 minutes ago, ghost crayfish said:

A generally overlooked part of Australian apathy towards international rugby league is its timing: a lot of people simply stop watching rugby league after the grand final. Even last year's state of origin TV ratings dipped considerably. That is added to other factors like poor organisation, lack of consistent competitiveness over what is now generations and the fact clubs are so hostile to it (because unlike origin, it doesn't make them money). Here's hoping the world cup is a massive success and beyond that, a proper well organised international schedule is set in stone.

Personally, I think a single standalone international weekend after the origin series is essential. Suddenly the origin series becomes a high profile, six week ad for test football, as players compete for test selection. Then that test weekend becomes a high profile ad for the post season tests to follow.

I agree but the trouble is the NRL also now want to put a stop to mid season internationals too. They don't even want one anymore never mind anything else.

Having 3 standalone internationals mid season, in the form of a Pacific Cup, when SOO is played would be transformative for the game and would allow RL to completely dominate in the PI countries. We can't have that interfering with SOO and the NRL though and dare I say devalue it.