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Lancashire. RL heartland?


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56 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Like I said its a rep team and should be renamed to North West, or play proper counties..

Lets be honest Sheens rang round on a thursday to get lads to play for a made up team and got lads to represent I dont know what?

At the end of the day its one of those oddities that show how outdated RL is currently

What city do Lancashire cricket play in again?

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16 hours ago, yipyee said:

For traditional sports who are long set in their ways.. doesnt mean it has to be though... sure merseyside have a netball team too??

Merseyside also run a youth games, who qualifies for that then if merseyside doesnt exsist?

Of course Merseyside exists - the Mersey has two sides, one on the north bank and one on the south!

Merseyside as a council area was introduced to carry out local government functions that had previously been undertaken by Lancashire & Cheshire councils. Lancashire & Cheshire had existed long before council areas were aligned with their geography in 1889. They continued to exist once the council areas no longer aligned with them.

The confusion comes because it was decided that the new council areas should also be called counties and that some (Cheshire & Lancashire included) should carry the traditional county's name, despite covering different areas.

The traditional counties' existence had never depended on having a council area aligned with it. There was never a Yorkshire County Council for example. The traditional counties had existed before having local government functions and continued to exist when they no longer had those functions. In altering the local government areas, the Government at the time had not intended that anything should be altered other than the councils.

One of the functions that was not removed from the traditional counties (because it had nothing to do with local government) was sports administration - Lancashire still play cricket at Old Trafford and played at Aigburth (Liverpool) until 2019, Newcastle United are subject to the Northumberland FA, West Ham are subject to the Essex FA and Sale Sharks to the Cheshire RFU (based on the location of Sale as a settlement, despite the team having moved to a stadium on the Lancashire side of the Mersey). To use your example - netball on (the north side of) Merseyside is administered by Netball Lancashire as part of Netball England.

These are the same old points that have been made on here time and time again. As I have said - everyone knows that when people say Lancashire in a RL setting, they mean the traditional county and not the local government area. There is no need for that to cause any issues.

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2 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I am Scottish, born and bred, and in my 40s. I have never heard that word used in my entire life. 

Seriously - it sounds like somewhere that existed in the 1950s. 

I say bring back THE SOKE OF PETERBOROUGH 🙂

 

Paul

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10 hours ago, Damien said:

What city do Lancashire cricket play in again?

Is this some kind of minor counties team?

Bless them for giving it a go.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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12 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Of course Merseyside exists - the Mersey has two sides, one on the north bank and one on the south!

Merseyside as a council area was introduced to carry out local government functions that had previously been undertaken by Lancashire & Cheshire councils. Lancashire & Cheshire had existed long before council areas were aligned with their geography in 1889. They continued to exist once the council areas no longer aligned with them.

The confusion comes because it was decided that the new council areas should also be called counties and that some (Cheshire & Lancashire included) should continue to carry the traditional county's name, despite covering different areas.

The traditional counties' existence had never depended on having a council area aligned with it. There was never a Yorkshire County Council for example. The traditional counties had existed before having local government functions and continued to exist when they no longer had those functions. In altering the local government areas, the Government at the time had not intended that anything should be altered other than the councils.

One of the functions that was not removed from the traditional counties (because it had nothing to do with local government) was sports administration - Lancashire still play cricket at Old Trafford and played at Aigburth (Liverpool) until 2019, Newcastle United are subject to the Northumberland FA, West Ham are subject to the Essex FA and Sale Sharks to the Cheshire RFU (based on the location of Sale as a settlement, despite the team having moved to a stadium on the Lancashire side of the Mersey). To use your example - netball on (the north side of) Merseyside is administered by Netball Lancashire as part of Netball England.

These are the same old points that have been made on here time and time again. As I have said - everyone knows that when people say Lancashire in a RL setting, they mean the traditional county and not the local government area. There is no need for that to cause any issues.

Well said.

The comments by Yippee et alia are just nonsense on stilts.

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15 hours ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

I am Scottish, born and bred, and in my 40s. I have never heard that word used in my entire life. 

Seriously - it sounds like somewhere that existed in the 1950s. 

Well maybe you should learn a bit more about your native country.

https://wikishire.co.uk/wiki/Cromartyshire

Just because you've never heard if it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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13 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

The traditional counties' existence had never depended on having a council area aligned with it. There was never a Yorkshire County Council for example. The traditional counties had existed before having local government functions and continued to exist when they no longer had those functions. In altering the local government areas, the Government at the time had not intended that anything should be altered other than the councils.

Absolutely.

This problem has been caused by pompous councillors putting signs up all over the place, where they were neither wanted nor needed, and by gullible fools believing them.

It's not "living in the past".  It's actually The Law.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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20 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

The historic counties are certainly what people refer to when talking about their origins. During the Humberside years round here no one ever said they were from that manufactured county, they were all proud Yorkshire folk and it didn't take long after it was abolished for it to be just about completely forgotten about. I doubt there are many people round here under about 25 or so that have even heard of Humberside as a county so desperate were people to forget that dark period of our history. 

although weirdly Cleveland has stuck a bit harder

I came from Hereford and Worcester and the struggle for our freedom was real.

People from Herefordshire thought people from Worcestershire  looked down on them and treated them as second class citizens. Meanwhile in Worcestershire we couldn't wait to be shot of the ungrateful spongers.

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42 minutes ago, Griff said:

Well maybe you should learn a bit more about your native country.

https://wikishire.co.uk/wiki/Cromartyshire

Just because you've never heard if it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Cromartyshire doesn't exist.

Ross and Cromarty was formed from the (re)merging of Cromarty with Ross in 1890. Thus ending its existence.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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6 hours ago, Hopping Mad said:

Not so weird.

The terms 'Cleveland Hills' and 'Cleveland Plain' were in use long, long before 'Cleveland' was dreamt up as the name for an administrative area.

 

It's interesting how what is/was referred to as Cleveland has changed over time.

Cleveland (literally Cliff-land) originally referred to not just the Cleveland Hills, but much of the North York Moors. The land to the north of the hills subsequently became known as the Cleveland Plain. This was though of course all on the south (Yorkshire) side of the Tees.

A number of Boroughs in and around Middlesbrough & Stockton had pre-empted local government reorganisation and merged in 1968 to become 'Teesside'. When plans were then made for the 1974 local government reorganisation, the commission decided a larger area was more suitable, but because Teesside Council was one of those now being merged, it was thought that a different name should be used so that other areas (primarily Hartlepool) didn't feel hard done to. They chose 'Cleveland' even though areas north of the Tees had never been part of Cleveland and Teesside really was a better descriptor for the area (practically all of the cliffs/hilly land was outside of the area, to the south).

This area is a really good example of what a mess the interplay between administrative areas and cultural/social geography in England has become - Cleveland Council was abolished in 1996 and the County Council responsibilities were passed to the district councils. Cleveland however remained as the police and fire authority. The Tees once again became the boundary for the ceremonial/judicial counties. Recent changes introduced a metro-mayor for the Tees Valley (Cleveland local authorities plus Darlington). Most people if asked would tell you they live on Teesside.

Taking the town of Yarm as an example then:

Traditional County - Yorkshire (North Riding)

Local Authority - Stockton

Police & Fire Brigade - Cleveland

Ambulance Service - North East England

Metro-Mayor - Tees Valley

Ceremonial County - North Yorkshire (although Stockton town in the same council area is County Durham)

If you ask people which county they live in, they will answer - Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Cleveland, Teesside or Stockton!

Council areas and other administrative organisations will regularly change, this can often be necessary for demographic, economic or political reasons. That being the case, the use of the traditional counties as a fixed, unchanging geographical reference is a sensible option - this is what people are doing when they refer to Lancashire clubs in discussing RL.

Edit - I note that the wikipedia link you have edited in gives some of the same background that I put in my post.

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57 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Cromartyshire doesn't exist.

Ross and Cromarty was formed from the (re)merging of Cromarty with Ross in 1890. Thus ending its existence.

Just a council Jon. Not a place. 

Keep ignoring the facts if you like, but it doesn't make them go away.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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4 minutes ago, Griff said:

Just a council Jon. Not a place. 

Keep ignoring the facts if you like, but it doesn't make them go away.

I did actually do a bit of reading around it.

Cromartyshire is a fun little exercise for people who like to talk about exclaves.

It ceased to exist 131 years ago, being replaced by the historic county that had existed before it.

Nothing to do with council areas.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I did actually do a bit of reading around it.

Cromartyshire is a fun little exercise for people who like to talk about exclaves.

It ceased to exist 131 years ago, being replaced by the historic county that had existed before it.

Nothing to do with council areas.

Nothing to do with the Local Government Act then? Just a coincidence that the whole of local government was being reformed at the same time?

The geography of Cromartyshire makes it absolutely sensible that it would be administered jointly with Rossshire, but it doesn't make it Rossshire.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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13 minutes ago, Griff said:

Nothing to do with the Local Government Act then? Just a coincidence that the whole of local government was being reformed at the same time?

The geography of Cromartyshire makes it absolutely sensible that it would be administered jointly with Rossshire, but it doesn't make it Rossshire.

My understanding from reading, and happy to be wrong, is that the creation of Cromarty out of Ross was entirely 'administrative' in the context of the time as it was all to do with landowners and rates.

Unlike, say, Lancashire - to keep on topic - it doesn't exist today even in any ceremonial form whereas, to choose one at random, the current Lord Lieutenant of Ross and Cromarty is Janet Bowen.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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56 minutes ago, Griff said:

Nothing to do with the Local Government Act then? Just a coincidence that the whole of local government was being reformed at the same time?

It was in 1890. Cromartyshire was scattered small areas within Ross :- 

https://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usfeatures/areas/indexto1890.html

Nothing to do with the re-organisation of Scotland into Regions (and then back again) that's happened more recently.

Back on topic - while administration of some amateur sports, in some places, uses the traditional county boundaries, it's worth noting that neither football, nor rugby union has county games involving players from top flight clubs, nor do top flight clubs take part in county cups. (And the RU county championship has had Cumbria rather than Cumberland for decades, and has had teams which are not county based e.g. North Midlands for even more decades).

 

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15 minutes ago, JonM said:

The RU county championship has had Cumbria rather than Cumberland for decades, and has had teams which are not county based e.g. North Midlands for even more decades.

The Cumberland (Minor Counties) cricket team changed its name to Cumbria for the 2021 season.

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33 minutes ago, JonM said:

it's worth noting that neither football, nor rugby union has county games involving players from top flight clubs, nor do top flight clubs take part in county cups

That's due to fixture congestion more than anything else though. For example, the Lancashire Senior Cup and Lancashire Junior Cup are both cup competitions run by the Lancashire FA, with the former being for the reserve/u23 sides of the professional clubs, and the latter for semi-pro clubs. Although it is worth mentioning that a Manchester FA also exists, with quite a few clubs being members of both at the same time (if memory serves me right, the Manchester versions are the Senior Cup and the Premier Cup).

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Well maybe you should learn a bit more about your native country.

https://wikishire.co.uk/wiki/Cromartyshire

Just because you've never heard if it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

What an utterly pompous answer. 

It doesn't exist. I have never heard of it, it is not mentioned in the media, and no Scottish people ever talk about in common usage. 

Maybe try lecturing the Welsh about their country next? They might be more likely to listen to you.

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18 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

That's due to fixture congestion more than anything else though. For example, the Lancashire Senior Cup and Lancashire Junior Cup are both cup competitions run by the Lancashire FA, with the former being for the reserve/u23 sides of the professional clubs, and the latter for semi-pro clubs. Although it is worth mentioning that a Manchester FA also exists, with quite a few clubs being members of both at the same time (if memory serves me right, the Manchester versions are the Senior Cup and the Premier Cup).

Amusingly, the official list of 'county' FAs kicks off with two county FAs who do not represent counties: the Amateur Football Alliance (AFA), and the Army Football Association.

There's also a Liverpool FA. A London FA. A Sheffield & Hallamshire FA.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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11 minutes ago, The Frying Scotsman said:

What an utterly pompous answer. 

It doesn't exist. I have never heard of it, it is not mentioned in the media, and no Scottish people ever talk about in common usage. 

Maybe try lecturing the Welsh about their country next? They might be more likely to listen to you.

You're entitled to your view.

As am I.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

My understanding from reading, and happy to be wrong, is that the creation of Cromarty out of Ross was entirely 'administrative' in the context of the time as it was all to do with landowners and rates.

Unlike, say, Lancashire - to keep on topic - it doesn't exist today even in any ceremonial form whereas, to choose one at random, the current Lord Lieutenant of Ross and Cromarty is Janet Bowen.

Creation of Cromarty ?  No - you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick there.

Let me pose a slightly different question - when towns such as Castleford and Dewsbury were made into county boroughs, with their own autonomous councils, did anyone claim that they'd left Yorkshire ?    No, of course they didn't.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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21 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Of course Merseyside exists - the Mersey has two sides, one on the north bank and one on the south!

Merseyside as a council area was introduced to carry out local government functions that had previously been undertaken by Lancashire & Cheshire councils. Lancashire & Cheshire had existed long before council areas were aligned with their geography in 1889. They continued to exist once the council areas no longer aligned with them.

The confusion comes because it was decided that the new council areas should also be called counties and that some (Cheshire & Lancashire included) should carry the traditional county's name, despite covering different areas.

The traditional counties' existence had never depended on having a council area aligned with it. There was never a Yorkshire County Council for example. The traditional counties had existed before having local government functions and continued to exist when they no longer had those functions. In altering the local government areas, the Government at the time had not intended that anything should be altered other than the councils.

One of the functions that was not removed from the traditional counties (because it had nothing to do with local government) was sports administration - Lancashire still play cricket at Old Trafford and played at Aigburth (Liverpool) until 2019, Newcastle United are subject to the Northumberland FA, West Ham are subject to the Essex FA and Sale Sharks to the Cheshire RFU (based on the location of Sale as a settlement, despite the team having moved to a stadium on the Lancashire side of the Mersey). To use your example - netball on (the north side of) Merseyside is administered by Netball Lancashire as part of Netball England.

These are the same old points that have been made on here time and time again. As I have said - everyone knows that when people say Lancashire in a RL setting, they mean the traditional county and not the local government area. There is no need for that to cause any issues.

Yep but Lancashire didnt exsist until someone drew a line on the map and said this is lancashire and you oversee this land.

Back in the roman times and the dark ages Lancashire didnt exsist as a county.

I get that people here can represent Lancashire but it doesnt really mean anything as they are not lancastrians 

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1 hour ago, yipyee said:

Yep but Lancashire didnt exsist until someone drew a line on the map and said this is lancashire and you oversee this land.

Back in the roman times and the dark ages Lancashire didnt exsist as a county.

I get that people here can represent Lancashire but it doesnt really mean anything as they are not lancastrians 

On the first part of your post, absolutely. Lancashire is amongst the youngest traditional counties and actually one of the few in England for which there is a known date for its creation (1182) - probably a bit before drawing lines on maps to be honest. Before then it had been a bit of an odd sort of no man's frontier land, within England, but part of no county.

So, created in 1182, gained a local council role in 1889, had that council role re-assigned in 1974. But never abolished as a county, only the council which shared its name (and geography) was got rid of and that had existed for only 85 years - one person's lifetime.

As I've said in other posts, the foolish thing was to name the new council areas 'counties' as well. This only caused confusion.

The Government statement when council functions were reassigned in 1974 was:

“The new county boundaries are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change despite the different names adopted by the new administrative counties."

This has been confirmed by various Governments since:

“I can confirm that the Government still stand by this statement,.…that the local authority areas and boundaries introduced in April 1974 do not alter the traditional boundaries of counties. The 1974 arrangements are entirely administrative, and need not affect long-standing loyalties and affinities.”  Michael Portillo (Minister of State for Local Government) in 1990.

"these Acts did not specifically abolish traditional counties, so traditional counties still exist, but no longer for the purpose of the administration of local government." Department for Communities & Local Government, 2008

Based on this there are two definitions of Lancashire (actually three - the traditional county, the council area and the lieutenancy/police/fire authority area). Both/all are valid and used for different purposes. So if someone from Lancashire is Lancastrian, then yes, someone from Oldham, Rochdale, Swinton, Salford, Leigh, St Helens, Widnes, Barrow, etc is Lancastrian.

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