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Lancashire. RL heartland?


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21 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

I say bring back THE SOKE¬†OF PETERBOROUGH ūüôā

 

Paul

Now, you're talking, Paul!

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On 29/06/2021 at 14:20, The Hallucinating Goose said:

The historic counties are certainly what people refer to when talking about their origins. During the Humberside years round here no one ever said they were from that manufactured county, they were all proud Yorkshire folk and it didn't take long after it was abolished for it to be just about completely forgotten about. I doubt there are many people round here under about 25 or so that have even heard of Humberside as a county so desperate were people to forget that dark period of our history. 

BBC Radio Humberside and the Humberside Police may muddy the waters a bit there. The Humberside name is still about, and you still get it as a selection of many "counties" lists when putting in your address online.

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39 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

BBC Radio Humberside and the Humberside Police may muddy the waters a bit there. The Humberside name is still about, and you still get it as a selection of many "counties" lists when putting in your address online.

Yeah this is fair enough though whether younger people would know the reason for those things being called Humberside I am not sure, it might be that people just think the term is an informal way of referring to the area rather than having its origins rooted in an official name change, of course this would not explain the counties list thing so I don't really know, it was just a thought more than anything. Another institution would be Humberside Fire and Rescue. 

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6 minutes ago, meast said:

When talking about RL I use the terms "Yorkshire" and "Lancashire" as geographical areas rather than counties.

 

Yorkshire doesn't exist anymore and there are no professional clubs in modern day Lancashire, but most people apart from the extremely pedantic will know what those terms refer to.

So if it doesn't have a council, it's not a place any more.

Surely you can see that's nonsense.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

BBC Radio Humberside and the Humberside Police may muddy the waters a bit there. 

At the other extreme you have West Mercia Police.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, meast said:

When talking about RL I use the terms "Yorkshire" and "Lancashire" as geographical areas rather than counties.

 

Yorkshire doesn't exist anymore and there are no professional clubs in modern day Lancashire, but most people apart from the extremely pedantic will know what those terms refer to.

Remember you are on TotalRL dot com.

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I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks.

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2 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Yeah this is fair enough though whether younger people would know the reason for those things being called Humberside I am not sure, it might be that people just think the term is an informal way of referring to the area rather than having its origins rooted in an official name change, of course this would not explain the counties list thing so I don't really know, it was just a thought more than anything. Another institution would be Humberside Fire and Rescue. 

Yeah I'd say referring to the area as Humberside is more a positional description (at the side if the Humber) rather than an official name of the region.

Was the term Humberside ever used before the 70s?

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Wouldn't it have made sense to just split Lancashire up into East Lancashire (GM), West Lancashire (Merseyside) and North Lancashire (Lancashire present)? The region of Lancashire would have had around 6m people (Cheshire without Warrington would go to the Midlands, and Cumbria can remain).

Your half-million of Cumbria could turn had joined with the North East to make a larger Northern region (which would still have been the smallest region in the country, but just not as small!).

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4 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

On the first part of your post, absolutely. Lancashire is amongst the youngest traditional counties and actually one of the few in England for which there is a known date for its creation (1182) - probably a bit before drawing lines on maps to be honest. Before then it had been a bit of an odd sort of no man's frontier land, within England, but part of no county.

So, created in 1182, gained a local council role in 1889, had that council role re-assigned in 1974. But never abolished as a county, only the council which shared its name (and geography) was got rid of and that had existed for only 85 years - one person's lifetime.

As I've said in other posts, the foolish thing was to name the new council areas 'counties' as well. This only caused confusion.

The Government statement when council functions were reassigned in 1974 was:

“The new county boundaries are administrative areas, and will not alter the traditional boundaries of counties, nor is it intended that the loyalties of people living in them will change despite the different names adopted by the new administrative counties."

This has been confirmed by various Governments since:

‚ÄúI can confirm that the Government still stand by this statement,.‚Ķthat the local authority areas and boundaries introduced in April 1974 do not alter the traditional boundaries of counties. The 1974 arrangements are entirely administrative, and need not affect long-standing loyalties and affinities.‚Ä̬†¬†Michael Portillo (Minister of State for Local Government) in 1990.

"these Acts did not specifically abolish traditional counties, so traditional counties still exist, but no longer for the purpose of the administration of local government." Department for Communities & Local Government, 2008

Based on this there are two definitions of Lancashire (actually three - the traditional county, the council area and the lieutenancy/police/fire authority area). Both/all are valid and used for different purposes. So if someone from Lancashire is Lancastrian, then yes, someone from Oldham, Rochdale, Swinton, Salford, Leigh, St Helens, Widnes, Barrow, etc is Lancastrian.

Thanks for the detailed infomation and history!

Whilst I borderline agree with you on your opinion at the end several others would disagree, also politicians say what will get them votes so I would take their quotes with a pinch if salt

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55 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Wouldn't it have made sense to just split Lancashire up into East Lancashire (GM), West Lancashire (Merseyside) and North Lancashire (Lancashire present)? The region of Lancashire would have had around 6m people (Cheshire without Warrington would go to the Midlands, and Cumbria can remain).

Your half-million of Cumbria could turn had joined with the North East to make a larger Northern region (which would still have been the smallest region in the country, but just not as small!).

Great idea! Not sure why this didnt happen unless it was a political ploy to divide and conquer

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48 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Thanks for the detailed infomation and history!

Whilst I borderline agree with you on your opinion at the end several others would disagree, also politicians say what will get them votes so I would take their quotes with a pinch if salt

A very wise stance!

In this case they're statements on behalf of the relevant Goverment department, no doubt drafted by civil servants on the advice of legal officers, in respect of what Acts of Parliament do and don't do. They aren't party political statements and were released by Governments of both political persuasions. This seems to be as close to official/definitive as we will get on the subject.

As you say, I'm sure others will continue to disagree.

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On 29/06/2021 at 13:23, Cumbrian Mackem said:

Due to all the boundary changes like greater Manchester, Merseyside and Cheshire can we still keep referring to Lancashire as a RL heartland?

Especially with their being zero professional or semi-professional RL clubs in the county and very few amauter/grassroots clubs?

If I was from those traditional historic proud Lancashire towns I would object to being called greater Manchester. I come from Bramley always part of Leeds ,but just up the road is Pudsey where I live now just on the old border actually and the old Pudsey natives still object to being classed as Leeds with an LS postcode. " Pudsa where t sparrers fly backards ter keep t soot outta ther eyes " 

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 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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12 hours ago, meast said:

Huh?

You admit Yorkshire's a geographical area then in the next breath say it doesn't exist.

It does exist. It's a geographical area.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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12 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Yeah I'd say referring to the area as Humberside is more a positional description (at the side if the Humber) rather than an official name of the region.

Was the term Humberside ever used before the 70s?

From what I've read, the term was very rarely used, certainly not to refer to the geographical area that became the county. I think the term was really only used to describe the collection of ports at Hull, Grimsby, Immingham and Goole. I believe they were sometimes collectively referred to as the 'Humberside ports' but other than this, no I don't think the term was used much at all.

Essentially it was used as a marketing tool, so to speak, when the local authorities were trying to convince the government to fund the building of the bridge and the creation of Humberside was one of the last pushes they needed because suddenly we found ourselves with a county straddling both sides of the estuary and incredibly poor transport connections between the two sides. 

Another example of it still existing is Humberside Airport though why that place even still exists is beyond me. It should have been built at Brough, as was considered at the time, and it might actually have gotten far more use but where it is now it gets very little usage. I've never been to Humberside Airport, just as easy to get to Leeds-Bradford and there are far more choices of destinations from there. 

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Yet whenever the County of Origin idea comes up everyone from West of the Pennines says Lancashire doesn’t exist anymore?

I guess the white arose of Yorkshire really did win the War of the Roses! We prevailed while the Red rose of Lancashire has faded to insignificance and blipped out of existence 

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20 hours ago, gingerjon said:

At the other extreme you have West Mercia Police.

The area is know as Yorkshire and the Humber economically.  And of course both South and West Yorkshire now have mayors like Greater Manchester does.

Edited by Trojan

‚ÄúFew thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.‚ÄĚ

Clement Attlee.

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2 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Yet whenever the County of Origin idea comes up everyone from West of the Pennines says Lancashire doesn’t exist anymore?

People from Lancashire clearly have no sense of pride.

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"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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1 hour ago, Trojan said:

The area is know as Yorkshire and the Humber economically.  And of course both South and West Yorkshire now have mayors like Greater Manchester does.

Again - local gvernment has nothing to do with geography.

I can cheerfully keep saying that until it sinks in.

Meast unintentionally hit the nail on the head a few posts earlier.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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19 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Yeah I'd say referring to the area as Humberside is more a positional description (at the side if the Humber) rather than an official name of the region.

Was the term Humberside ever used before the 70s?

Isn't there two sides to the Humber,  Yorkshire and Lincolnshire and never the twain shall meet?

For some time (even now?) the Humber Bridge was very underutilized

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3 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Yet whenever the County of Origin idea comes up everyone from West of the Pennines says Lancashire doesn’t exist anymore?

I guess the white arose of Yorkshire really did win the War of the Roses! We prevailed while the Red rose of Lancashire has faded to insignificance and blipped out of existence 

The usurper & baby killer, Richard III, still lost his crown and ended up in a ditch.  That seems pretty conclusive to me.

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44 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

The usurper & baby killer, Richard III, still lost his crown and ended up in a ditch.  That seems pretty conclusive to me.

Usurper?                                                          Likely.

Child (rather than baby) killer?                      We'll probably never know.

Lost his crown and ended up in a ditch?      Certainly.

But the throne was taken by the House of Tudor, not Lancaster. Tudor would have had to be a legitimate male line descendent of John of Gaunt to be a member of the House of Lancaster - his descent was via an illegitimate line and then a female line. The House of Lancaster died out with the death of Henry VI, with the Yorkists on the throne. Not that this has much at all to do with the counties of Yorkshire & Lancashire (or rugby league)!

Edited by Barley Mow
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2 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Usurper?                                                          Likely.

Child (rather than baby) killer?                      We'll probably never know.

Lost his crown and ended up in a ditch?      Certainly.

But the throne was taken by the House of Tudor, not Lancaster. Tudor would have had to be a legitimate male line descendent of John of Gaunt to be a member of the House of Lancaster - his descent was via an illegitimate line and then a female line. The House of Lancaster died out with the death of Henry VI, with the Yorkists on the throne. Not that this has much at all to do with the counties of Yorkshire & Lancashire (or rugby league)!

I think the house that ended was a Plantagenat one, but it would probably take one of those ladies who wonder around documentaries to confirm. ūüėÄ

Wikipedia (?) will tell us that Henry Tudor came via her mother, from a legitimized branch of the royal House of Lancaster.

As all of us know, especially all of us who give a Loyal Toast, that by the Grace of God Her Majesty the Queen, and the Ruler of all her Realms, is The Duke Lancaster.

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