The World Cup goes ahead

[Szymala]

10 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Rugby league is not football. Nobody will care.

Won't the fans who love the game care ? There'd be no sense of accomplishment in being crowned World Cup winners with Australia nowhere to be seen.

It would be even worse than GB winning their most recent World Cup in '72 after a drawn final...or Australia winning the year-long '75 tournament after drawing & losing to England. 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Szymala said:

Won't the fans who love the game care ? There'd be no sense of accomplishment in being crowned World Cup winners with Australia nowhere to be seen.

It would be even worse than GB winning their most recent World Cup in '72 after a drawn final...or Australia winning the year-long '75 tournament after drawing & losing to England. 

But if Australia won't come to the tournament then they can't be world champions.

[RP London]

7 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

The NRL hasn’t damaged the World Cup, if anything them pumping resources into developing players from NZ and the PI’s is the only thing that has kept it even slightly relevant in recent years...

The problems that the World Cup, and international RL in general, face can’t be fixed independently of the RFL, and other nations, getting their houses in order. A strong international product starts with strong local club competitions, and until we have that in more than just one nation international footy is always going to struggle.

while that is true the opposite is also true in that to get a strong vibrant local competition you need international competition to spark the interest of those not already embedded in the sport and also to keep that spark of something different in those that are already fans. 

For example, to encourage someone in Bristol to enjoy the game an international match involving England on terrestrial television will spark an interest, one they wouldnt necessarily have watching 2 teams from places unknown (a cup final may do this out of general interest of a large event). Everyone can associate with their national team. This sparks an interest which then gets them looking for a team to support etc etc. Also someone in an area with a struggling club can look forward to international competition too and keeps an interest when the club is going through the mire. 

For the most part, rather than chicken and egg, it is the international game that can spark this revival in the club game, to start a sport an international scene is really important. A good performance by GB Ice Hockey at the winter olympics etc would see a surge of people through the gates at arenas in the major ice hockey areas without a doubt, the job then is to keep them coming. It also see rises in participation levels, again the key is to keep it going. 

While I sympathise with the stand you are taking and the way you are looking at it, i would argue that actually the international game MUST work independently and sit there as the one constant, it then ploughs its profits back into the domestic game to raise the standards of that (see RU and Cricket for good examples of this, whereby without the international game the clubs/counties would be dead or amateur). 

[RP London]

23 minutes ago, Szymala said:

Won't the fans who love the game care ? There'd be no sense of accomplishment in being crowned World Cup winners with Australia nowhere to be seen.

It would be even worse than GB winning their most recent World Cup in '72 after a drawn final...or Australia winning the year-long '75 tournament after drawing & losing to England. 

Yes the fans would care, but I am guessing they will get over it. 

But a key, maybe THE key, to the world cup success is the interest it garners from people who are not already fans.. and will they care? I would argue not.. 

[Dunbar]

7 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

The NRL hasn’t damaged the World Cup, if anything them pumping resources into developing players from NZ and the PI’s is the only thing that has kept it even slightly relevant in recent years...

The problems that the World Cup, and international RL in general, face can’t be fixed independently of the RFL, and other nations, getting their houses in order. A strong international product starts with strong local club competitions, and until we have that in more than just one nation international footy is always going to struggle.

I agree that the NRL competition has contributed significantly to the development of competitive PI nations.  I have not and would not argue otherwise. 

But I did say 'if' the NRL clubs damage the World Cup and that 'if' is lobbying for the World Cup to not be ratified as a representative game so they are not obliged to release said players.  That would damage the competition. 

[frank]

8 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

The NRL hasn’t damaged the World Cup, if anything them pumping resources into developing players from NZ and the PI’s is the only thing that has kept it even slightly relevant in recent years...

The problems that the World Cup, and international RL in general, face can’t be fixed independently of the RFL, and other nations, getting their houses in order. A strong international product starts with strong local club competitions, and until we have that in more than just one nation international footy is always going to struggle.

The NRL haven't Sank a penny into player development in NZ and the Islands. They have  developed a few that go over to Aussie,  solely to make their comp more competative but certainly not to represent their countries. In fact it's it's just about wrecked league in NZ.

Don't be fooled  into thinking they do this to strengthen the International scene.

[The Great Dane]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

while that is true the opposite is also true in that to get a strong vibrant local competition you need international competition to spark the interest of those not already embedded in the sport and also to keep that spark of something different in those that are already fans. 

For example, to encourage someone in Bristol to enjoy the game an international match involving England on terrestrial television will spark an interest, one they wouldnt necessarily have watching 2 teams from places unknown (a cup final may do this out of general interest of a large event). Everyone can associate with their national team. This sparks an interest which then gets them looking for a team to support etc etc. Also someone in an area with a struggling club can look forward to international competition too and keeps an interest when the club is going through the mire. 

For the most part, rather than chicken and egg, it is the international game that can spark this revival in the club game, to start a sport an international scene is really important. A good performance by GB Ice Hockey at the winter olympics etc would see a surge of people through the gates at arenas in the major ice hockey areas without a doubt, the job then is to keep them coming. It also see rises in participation levels, again the key is to keep it going. 

While I sympathise with the stand you are taking and the way you are looking at it, i would argue that actually the international game MUST work independently and sit there as the one constant, it then ploughs its profits back into the domestic game to raise the standards of that (see RU and Cricket for good examples of this, whereby without the international game the clubs/counties would be dead or amateur). 

Your line of logic hasn't worked for either the ARU or FFA, and going on the fact that English RL has been focused on international footy for just about as long as I can remember yet has been shrinking since at least the 90s, I'd suggest that it hasn't worked for the RFL/Super League either. In fact, IMO, the myth that internationals are some magic cure that can instantly change a sport's fortune has actually further cemented each of the three examples above's decline.

I mean the very idea that just because you can get a person through the gate to support their nations, that that means that they might/will have an interest in supporting clubs such as WSW, the Waratahs, and Castleford, is terrible logic in my opinion. I mean look at the Olympics and how many people take an interest in them every 4 years, only to forget the sports they took an interest in for the duration of Olympics even exist after they are over.

I also seriously doubt that there're many solid examples, i.e. backed by hard data, where an international competition 'sparked' a ' revival in the club game'. I mean Australian RU has only shrunk since the 03 WC and the last British and Irish Lions tour, and RL in England has shrunk since the 2013 WC, not seen a sustained boost, so why will this one be any different? The answer is that it almost certainly won't be, and that that's a false hope...

Nah if you want the sport, and internationals by extension, to become more relevant in the culture then it will come off the back of the grassroots, the club game, and the creation of star players. As a product that is RL's bread and butter, and as such that is where the majority of the focus needs to be.

How you go about pursuing that growth in the RFL's case is debatable, but a few things are obvious; the administrative structure needs to be completely reworked as too many people with vested interests have too much power, and you need to find a way to find a lot of investment for the sport and significantly increase it's exposure nationally at once.

[The Great Dane]

22 minutes ago, frank said:

The NRL haven't Sank a penny into player development in NZ and the Islands. They have  developed a few that go over to Aussie,  solely to make their comp more competative but certainly not to represent their countries. In fact it's it's just about wrecked league in NZ.

Don't be fooled  into thinking they do this to strengthen the International scene.

I've had this argument before, you are wrong.

The fact that the NZRL has squandered what the NRL has given them to the point that most Kiwi's don't even realise that they are getting it in the first place is as much an indictment on the NZRL as it is on the NRL for allowing the money to be wasted in the first place.

[The Great Dane]

46 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree that the NRL competition has contributed significantly to the development of competitive PI nations.  I have not and would not argue otherwise. 

But I did say 'if' the NRL clubs damage the World Cup and that 'if' is lobbying for the World Cup to not be ratified as a representative game so they are not obliged to release said players.  That would damage the competition. 

I'll say what I said before more plainly; the NRL clubs can't do anymore damage to the World Cup than has already been done by others!

I also find the entitlement to the competition going ahead quite sickening considering the circumstances, especially when considering that there's really no harm in delaying it. In saying that though it should be up to the individual whether or not they want to participate, just don't get upset when everybody puts a massive asterisk next to the comp if too many players pull out.

[RP London]

22 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Your line of logic hasn't worked for either the ARU or FFA, and going on the fact that English RL has been focused on international footy for just about as long as I can remember yet has been shrinking since at least the 90s, I'd suggest that it hasn't worked for the RFL/Super League either. In fact, IMO, the myth that internationals are some magic cure that can instantly change a sport's fortune has actually further cemented each of the three examples above's decline.

I mean the very idea that just because you can get a person through the gate to support their nations, that that means that they might/will have an interest in supporting clubs such as WSW, the Waratahs, and Castleford, is terrible logic in my opinion. I mean look at the Olympics and how many people take an interest in them every 4 years, only to forget the sports they took an interest in for the duration of Olympics even exist after they are over.

I also seriously doubt that there're many solid examples, i.e. backed by hard data, where an international competition 'sparked' a ' revival in the club game'. I mean Australian RU has only shrunk since the 03 WC and the last British and Irish Lions tour, and RL in England has shrunk since the 2013 WC, not seen a sustained boost, so why will this one be any different? The answer is that it almost certainly won't be, and that that's a false hope...

Nah if you want the sport, and internationals by extension, to become more relevant in the culture then it will come off the back of the grassroots, the club game, and the creation of star players. As a product that is RL's bread and butter, and as such that is where the majority of the focus needs to be.

How you go about pursuing that growth in the RFL's case is debatable, but a few things are obvious; the administrative structure needs to be completely reworked as too many people with vested interests have too much power, and you need to find a way to find a lot of investment for the sport and significantly increase it's exposure nationally at once.

got to say i disagree 100% with pretty much everything you have said. 

For a start, as i pointed out, there are some sports that only surivive thanks to the international game and the money pumped into the clubs from that and sited examples.. the ARU are another one so not sure why you have put them in as an example of what i said not being true.. it is an absolute example of what i am saying. Without a vibrant International game they would be struggling even more at club level. As it is they can use the money from the international game to support clubs and to try and re grow it.. (I dont know who the FFA is and googling it only brings up some random american organisation... if you mean anything to do with the football then thats a different argument due to the money in other leagues etc). 

If England RL have been solely concentrating on international RL for as long as you can remember then you obvisouly are very very young.. even taking away the pandemic IF Australia had toured here last year that would have been the first England International played for 2 years... 2 years FFS!!!. even if you take GB as England (which would be fair) then they would have been the first home international for 2 years... 2 years!!!! what other sport that has any semblance of an international game does that! we cannot even get mid season breaks sorted for internationals for christs sake! there is no way anyone has been taking the international game seriously since they scrapped the 4 nations, and perhaps even before that.. to say that "English RL has been focused on international footy for just about as long as I can remember" is ludicrous in the extreme!

Olympic sports are slightly different, you do see uplifts of participation in the sports immediately after and you see kids out on the streets etc.. but individual sports are different to team sports and its helped with success. Field Hockey has been growing in participation numbers since their success on the field in 2016 for example with statistics to back it up from places like statista. Womens football has seen both participation and spectator numbers increase (up until the pandemic) thanks to increased coverage of the international game. There are plenty of examples of this happening.. 

But of course it isnt the magic bullet that will cure all ills without anyone doing anything else.. that would be idiotic and is not what i said.. it then has to be run with by the the clubs, once you have caught the imagination of people. You will get people who go and support castelford becuase they saw England on tv.. i'm not saying they will travel to watch them but they may look out for them on tv, engage with them on social media etc and then there are things to sell to them, helping the club game.. The idea that its a one off is not going to work, it needs constant and regular internationals, it needs good FTA coverage of the highlights of the league and so on. 

The international game can catch people who may not otherwise tune in, that is the point, and from then the clubs have to work on it getting them down to play, train, watch etc but the international game can do so much to get the initial spark. Equally a good international structure that is profitable can help be fed back into the clubs and the game as a whole (as RU and Cricket do, as i exampled earlier).. 

We have actually been trying your way for years as we have not had a recognisable international format or calendar or even team playing.. and its just not working. Every time internationals are on I have people asking me about the game because they stumble across it on a weekend.. (as i do with the RU international matches) but hardly ever get talked to about Rugby at any other time.. its all football round here.. Its just an example of how internationals catch the imagination and can add a spark.. something the club game cannot do unless you are from that town IMHO. 

[Dunbar]

46 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

I'll say what I said before more plainly; the NRL clubs can't do anymore damage to the World Cup than has already been done by others!

I also find the entitlement to the competition going ahead quite sickening considering the circumstances, especially when considering that there's really no harm in delaying it. In saying that though it should be up to the individual whether or not they want to participate, just don't get upset when everybody puts a massive asterisk next to the comp if too many players pull out.

For your first line, do you mean this World Cup or the Rugby League World Cup in general?  Because I don't know if you have been following it closely but this World Cup has been superbly organized, publicized and managed.  It has the potential to be the competition that the game has craved for as long as I have been following it. 

As for your second part.  The word is not entitlement, it is ambition.  Have you seen the sports crowds in the UK since we have eased restrictions - the Euros, the cricket... watch the highlights of the England Pakistan 3rd T20 from yesterday and see how ready the nation is to celebrate sport.  I want this World Cup to go ahead because I believe it will be a huge success.  A strong World Cup should benefit any sport.  If it doesn't benefit Rugby League it says a lot about what is wrong with the sport at its core.

Finally.  Yes, it should be down to the individual players whether or not they want to participate.  That is all we are asking for.

[fighting irish]

55 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

I'll say what I said before more plainly; the NRL clubs can't do anymore damage to the World Cup than has already been done by others!

I also find the entitlement to the competition going ahead quite sickening considering the circumstances, especially when considering that there's really no harm in delaying it. In saying that though it should be up to the individual whether or not they want to participate, just don't get upset when everybody puts a massive asterisk next to the comp if too many players pull out.

Shame on Australia ! 

[Man of Kent]

If only Australia had vaccinated instead of boasting about their Covid-proof fence being the “envy of the world” (!)

[Scubby]

10 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

If only Australia had vaccinated instead of boasting about their Covid-proof fence being the “envy of the world” (!)

Fair point and was very short sighted, but if they had it would only provoke another excuse. The one kicking about regarding not counting the WC as official representative games is as pathetic as you get really.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, frank said:

The NRL haven't Sank a penny into player development in NZ and the Islands. They have  developed a few that go over to Aussie,  solely to make their comp more competative but certainly not to represent their countries. In fact it's it's just about wrecked league in NZ.

Don't be fooled  into thinking they do this to strengthen the International scene.

I was about to say similar. Signing big kids of PI heritage from within Australia and young Kiwis isn't really pumping in resources. Its NRL clubs signing the best talent they can to benefit them. Any benefits to the international game have been a by product of this, not the goal. Its also not much use to the international game if the said countries cant arrange their own matches or if they do obstacles are then put in their way to scupper them.

[fighting irish]

33 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

If only Australia had vaccinated instead of boasting about their Covid-proof fence being the “envy of the world” (!)

There's still time to vaccinate all the players isn't there, to protect them.

[frank]

1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

I've had this argument before, you are wrong.

The fact that the NZRL has squandered what the NRL has given them to the point that most Kiwi's don't even realise that they are getting it in the first place is as much an indictment on the NZRL as it is on the NRL for allowing the money to be wasted in the first place.

It's no wonder you have had this argument before.

The argument  has been going on for some time, to no avail, about getting some remuneration on the NZ players being sucked out of the system and into the NRL .The only ones to receive money are the  the players  who make it to Aussie and get a contract.

If it wasn't for  NZ, N Guinea and the Islands The Aussie  comp would be in a very bad way.

[Yakstorm]

The NRL has poured a lot of money into the Pacific game over the past decade and for anyone to say otherwise just shows how little they understand what the NRL does below the Premiership. 

To begin with, just using the Hunters and Silktails, roughly half of PNG's funds and about a third of the Silktails comes from the NRL.

The NRL has paid Development staff in PNG, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

The NRL has underwritten the Pacific Tests since 2013 and it has been funding the NZRL for a number of years (that amount has been significantly increased in the past 12 months).

They have literally poured tens of millions in investment outside of Australia. 

Now are they perfect? Far from it and of course the clubs, just like Super League clubs, are selfish parasites only concerned about themselves.

But to say the NRL has done nothing for the Pacific is out and out lies. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Yakstorm said:

The NRL has poured a lot of money into the Pacific game over the past decade and for anyone to say otherwise just shows how little they understand what the NRL does below the Premiership. 

To begin with, just using the Hunters and Silktails, roughly half of PNG's funds and about a third of the Silktails comes from the NRL.

The NRL has paid Development staff in PNG, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

The NRL has underwritten the Pacific Tests since 2013 and it has been funding the NZRL for a number of years (that amount has been significantly increased in the past 12 months).

They have literally poured tens of millions in investment outside of Australia. 

Now are they perfect? Far from it and of course the clubs, just like Super League clubs, are selfish parasites only concerned about themselves.

But to say the NRL has done nothing for the Pacific is out and out lies. 

How much money? As in - what is the number?

Is this 'tens of millions' documented anywhere? 

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

 

I also find the entitlement to the competition going ahead quite sickening considering the circumstances, especially when considering that there's really no harm in delaying it.

Why do you think there is no harm in delaying this? Millions and millions of pounds have been pumped into the World Cup.

This isnt an Aussie World Cup which consists of just opening a few grounds and seeing if people bother coming.

[RP London]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Why do you think there is no harm in delaying this? Millions and millions of pounds have been pumped into the World Cup.

This isnt an Aussie World Cup which consists of just opening a few grounds and seeing if people bother coming.

not to mention the fact we will have this period of time pretty much to ourselves.. autumn 2022 is not a good time to be doing anything if you are wanting back page coverage and you arent soccerball

[RP London]

31 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

There's still time to vaccinate all the players isn't there, to protect them.

If you REALLLLLY wanted to yes... there in lies the problem I would suggest!

 

[Dave T]

I'm really glad that the RLWC announcement has put to bed any speculation and uncertainty. This really does have echoes of the Denver test.

As somebody who has hundreds of quid tied up in gig tickets etc, I'm just not buying tickets for RLWC. If that means I pay a premium at the time, or even miss out on tickets I want, so be it.

[Damien]

26 minutes ago, Yakstorm said:

The NRL has poured a lot of money into the Pacific game over the past decade and for anyone to say otherwise just shows how little they understand what the NRL does below the Premiership. 

To begin with, just using the Hunters and Silktails, roughly half of PNG's funds and about a third of the Silktails comes from the NRL.

The NRL has paid Development staff in PNG, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

The NRL has underwritten the Pacific Tests since 2013 and it has been funding the NZRL for a number of years (that amount has been significantly increased in the past 12 months).

They have literally poured tens of millions in investment outside of Australia. 

Now are they perfect? Far from it and of course the clubs, just like Super League clubs, are selfish parasites only concerned about themselves.

But to say the NRL has done nothing for the Pacific is out and out lies. 

How much of this funding has been provided by the Australian Government? I certainly know an awful lot of work in Fiji and PNG has been due to that funding.

[Damien]

27 minutes ago, Damien said:

How much of this funding has been provided by the Australian Government? I certainly know an awful lot of work in Fiji and PNG has been due to that funding.

To answer my own question, in Fiji:

The Australian Government have also included funding support for an elite-level rugby league team in Fiji to compete in the NSWRL Intrust Super Premiership.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Marise Payne said sport has been a longstanding element of Australia's engagement in the Pacific.

"These announcements are part of the Australian Government's commitment to the Australia-Pacific Sports Linkages Program which will deliver $40 million in grants over five years to support the development of sport throughout the Pacific," Minister Payne said.

"Sport has been a longstanding element of our engagement in the Pacific. This new program recognises the role and reach of sport as a major connection between Pacific and Australian people and communities."

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/01/18/nrl-teams-to-play-trial-matches-in-pacific-nations/

 

In PNG:

Rugby League in Schools program, together with the SP PNG Hunters, will undergo the Australian NRL’s Level 1 Coaching course this Thursday and Friday at Bomana Police College, which will include the entire Hunters squad.

Up to 50,000 students from 80 schools will participate in the ‘Rugby League in Schools program, which is funded by the Australian Government and delivered by the Australian NRL, over the next three years. The program targets girls and boys of all abilities and uses a range of in classroom and on field rugby league and related activities to improve the quality of education. The program also focuses on teacher training and increasing the capacity of the PNGRFL to deliver school based rugby league programs.

https://png.embassy.gov.au/pmsb/214.html

And again:

The League Bilong Laif program is expanding into a fourth region of Papua New Guinea, commencing its school-based rugby league activities in the Autonomous Region of Bougainville this month.

League Bilong Laif uses rugby league as a tool to support education outcomes. It is funded by the Australian Government and delivered by the National Rugby League (Australia) in partnership with the PNG National Department of Education and Bougainville’s Department of Education.

https://png.embassy.gov.au/pmsb/449.html

And the NRL strategy:

The NRL is seeking tens of millions of dollars in federal government funding to introduce rugby league into schools throughout the Pacific Islands with a view to becoming the No.1 sport in the region.

..

The participation of the Kaiviti Silktails, financed primarily by the Australian federal government

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/having-beaten-covid-19-nrl-sets-its-sights-on-conquering-the-pacific-20210227-p576d3.html

This is all great and if the sport can get others to fund it then even better. However the Australian Government has there own strong reasons for doing this, without wanting to get political, and a lot of this work simply wouldn't be happening without their funding.