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Should the 1895 Cup have some Amateur teams?


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15 hours ago, Tom Moore said:

Would it not be a bit ironic to have amateur teams in a competition named after a split over broken-time payments? 

Don't get hung up on the term 'amateur'.

Rugby League usually uses the word 'open' which suggests (to me) I hope, that clubs can offer payments to players if they can afford to and no-one is going to have their BARLA rep. jerseys confiscated if they do.

BARLA's biggest mistake (in my opinion) in their bid for National Governing Body status, was including the term 'amateur' in their title. Just before RaRa were about to roll over and tacitly admit to a hundred years of utter hypocrisy BARLA picked up the torch and ran with it.

Good Lord, you couldn't make it up.

 

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On 17/07/2021 at 14:39, Scubby said:

I'm not sure that's true. Someone else on here can back me up perhaps.

Anyone who backs you up will be wrong.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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22 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

There are 2 qualifications for the 1895, 1st not be a Super League team, 2nd get knocked out of Challenge Cup. 

That's not quite so. Badly worded, perhaps.

You can't play in the final of both but you can play in the 1895 Cup before you're out of the Challenge Cup.

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"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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4 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Don't get hung up on the term 'amateur'.

Rugby League usually uses the word 'open' which suggests (to me) I hope, that clubs can offer payments to players if they can afford to and no-one is going to have their BARLA rep. jerseys confiscated if they do.

BARLA's biggest mistake (in my opinion) in their bid for National Governing Body status, was including the term 'amateur' in their title. Just before RaRa were about to roll over and tacitly admit to a hundred years of utter hypocrisy BARLA picked up the torch and ran with it.

Good Lord, you couldn't make it up.

 

My calculations get it to something like 23 years before union admitted to paying players.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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3 hours ago, Marauder said:

My calculations get it to something like 23 years before union admitted to paying players.

Would you care to elucidate? 

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13 hours ago, barnyia said:

French teams? 

Part time French teams, you mean ?  Playing midweek ?

Whether that's at home or away, someone's going to have a problem.

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"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Would love to see this as a thirty-two team competition with the games at weekends but realistically, that’s quite the ask and very unlikely that we’d get thirty-two sides willing/able to take part, available slots at weekends and league games being put to one side for this. 

Realistically though, with an early May final date, the tournament should really start a week or two before the regular season starts to prevent too many midweek games. 

There’s 24 outside of Super League. Hopefully all 24 decide to compete in this but you’ll probably only have 23 if Toulouse are still a Championship side, so you’d have to possibly draft in a NCL side in that instance. If not, Featherstone, as the holders, and the seven highest ranked sides in the Championship from 2021 should receive a “bye” to round two. The remaining sixteen are drawn out to play out round one and the eight winners meet the eight teams who received the bye and so on till you get the Wembley final. 

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22 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Would you care to elucidate? 

the amateur in BARLA started around 1973, union went Pro around 1996ish wasn't it? so 1973 taken away from 1996 leaves 23. and what is the problem with having amateur in a title.

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Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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On 17/07/2021 at 20:03, Smudger06 said:

There are 2 qualifications for the 1895, 1st not be a Super League team, 2nd get knocked out of Challenge Cup. 

I'm starting to think of it as a Europa League type job in comparison to Champions League, but to be fully like that you'd need SL Teams to enter as well. Which then would defeat the purpose of the non SL Teams having a final at Wembey. 

Kind of - there were 4 teams that progressed to the round of 16 with the 12 Super League teams - these four also qualified for the semi finals of the 1895. There was the technical possibility that one of those four teams could go on to win the Challenge Cup although obviously extremely unlikely that a Championship club would win the whole cup.

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11 hours ago, Marauder said:

the amateur in BARLA started around 1973, union went Pro around 1996ish wasn't it? so 1973 taken away from 1996 leaves 23. and what is the problem with having amateur in a title.

Well I could write a great deal about what the problem is. I'm not sure you really want to read it (or anyone else for that matter).

The point I was trying to make was that after a century of asserting the great ''amateur ethos'' whilst really using it as a means of excluding the common man, from their elitist (silly) Eton wall games they couldn't keep the secret (that they were paying their players handsomely) any more and the disgusting facade collapsed around them.

This collapse hastened of course by the fear of being overtaken as a result of Murdoch's £87 million pound payment to Super League.

Then of course bumbling old BARLA who could have/should have been the games National Governing Body by now, re-assert and re-affirm the whole absurd concept, (thereby tacitly condemning our own honest professionals), when what they should have done was stood for open (free) competition and let clubs and players find their natural level. 

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11 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Well I could write a great deal about what the problem is. I'm not sure you really want to read it (or anyone else for that matter).

The point I was trying to make was that after a century of asserting the great ''amateur ethos'' whilst really using it as a means of excluding the common man, from their elitist (silly) Eton wall games they couldn't keep the secret (that they were paying their players handsomely) any more and the disgusting facade collapsed around them.

This collapse hastened of course by the fear of being overtaken as a result of Murdoch's £87 million pound payment to Super League.

Then of course bumbling old BARLA who could have/should have been the games National Governing Body by now, re-assert and re-affirm the whole absurd concept, (thereby tacitly condemning our own honest professionals), when what they should have done was stood for open (free) competition and let clubs and players find their natural level. 

I'm sure you wouldn't be able to write anything I don't know or what I've forgot, I can see you played a lot against our own honest pro's as for BARLA and letting clubs find their own natural levels, I'm trying to find where, when or even why any club wasn't allowed to climb the amateur pyramid unless for disciplinary reasons, just had a peek at the NCL clubs, in total 16 of the teams now plying their trade there, I have played against in the regionals divisions.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I'm sure you wouldn't be able to write anything I don't know or what I've forgot, I can see you played a lot against our own honest pro's as for BARLA and letting clubs find their own natural levels, I'm trying to find where, when or even why any club wasn't allowed to climb the amateur pyramid unless for disciplinary reasons, just had a peek at the NCL clubs, in total 16 of the teams now plying their trade there, I have played against in the regionals divisions.

I'm trying not to be confrontational here Mara' but I'm quite sure, I haven't got the first idea what you are trying to say?

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23 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I'm trying not to be confrontational here Mara' but I'm quite sure, I haven't got the first idea what you are trying to say?

He's saying there is a full pyramid system for both players and clubs within the community game.

Declaring the game 'Open 'did not serve BARLA's purpose as they tried and ultimately succeeded in smashing the RFU apartheid system. They had to show to  the world that there was  massive  rugby league  activity outside the professional game and thus undermine the RFU's case. The RFU caved in following more parliamentary pressure and then the Murdock Wars Down Under  caused the southern hemisphere RU to go  pro followed by the RFU.

There is no such thing as  ' open free competition. ' 

The salary cap through Tiers 1-3 controls that. Tier 4 downwards in RL choose not to allow payment to players  for a number of reasons consistent with the salary cap principle of promoting competition but also for the clubs' own protection . It does not prevent player progress/ remuneration and if he is ultimately good enough he can go to the NRL or the RU Premiership.

On that latter point I quote the RFU itself -- ' The RFU have determined that payments for playing rugby in the Community  Game are having a detrimental effect  on the ethos of the game and on the development of some clubs. Consequently it believes that clubs should be encouraged to limit payments at levels 3-5 with those clubs at level 6 and below discouraged from making any payments '

The RFU let the horse bolt, have  clearly regretted that move and have since introduced strict salary caps down the line. And they are awash with money...

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10 minutes ago, del capo said:

He's saying there is a full pyramid system for both players and clubs within the community game.

Declaring the game 'Open 'did not serve BARLA's purpose as they tried and ultimately succeeded in smashing the RFU apartheid system. They had to show to  the world that there was  massive  rugby league  activity outside the professional game and thus undermine the RFU's case. The RFU caved in following more parliamentary pressure and then the Murdock Wars Down Under  caused the southern hemisphere RU to go  pro followed by the RFU.

There is no such thing as  ' open free competition. ' 

The salary cap through Tiers 1-3 controls that. Tier 4 downwards in RL choose not to allow payment to players  for a number of reasons consistent with the salary cap principle of promoting competition but also for the clubs' own protection . It does not prevent player progress/ remuneration and if he is ultimately good enough he can go to the NRL or the RU Premiership.

On that latter point I quote the RFU itself -- ' The RFU have determined that payments for playing rugby in the Community  Game are having a detrimental effect  on the ethos of the game and on the development of some clubs. Consequently it believes that clubs should be encouraged to limit payments at levels 3-5 with those clubs at level 6 and below discouraged from making any payments '

The RFU let the horse bolt, have  clearly regretted that move and have since introduced strict salary caps down the line. And they are awash with money...

Give me a little time?

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10 hours ago, del capo said:

He's saying there is a full pyramid system for both players and clubs within the community game.

Declaring the game 'Open 'did not serve BARLA's purpose as they tried and ultimately succeeded in smashing the RFU apartheid system. They had to show to  the world that there was  massive  rugby league  activity outside the professional game and thus undermine the RFU's case. The RFU caved in following more parliamentary pressure and then the Murdock Wars Down Under  caused the southern hemisphere RU to go  pro followed by the RFU.

There is no such thing as  ' open free competition. ' 

The salary cap through Tiers 1-3 controls that. Tier 4 downwards in RL choose not to allow payment to players  for a number of reasons consistent with the salary cap principle of promoting competition but also for the clubs' own protection . It does not prevent player progress/ remuneration and if he is ultimately good enough he can go to the NRL or the RU Premiership.

On that latter point I quote the RFU itself -- ' The RFU have determined that payments for playing rugby in the Community  Game are having a detrimental effect  on the ethos of the game and on the development of some clubs. Consequently it believes that clubs should be encouraged to limit payments at levels 3-5 with those clubs at level 6 and below discouraged from making any payments '

The RFU let the horse bolt, have  clearly regretted that move and have since introduced strict salary caps down the line. And they are awash with money...

Thank you for the information I'm eager to know more.

This is a part of BARLA's history, which I'm almost completely ignorant of and of which you seem to be very well informed.

Would you mind giving me an overview of the battle to ''smash the RFU's apartheid system''?

I'd really appreciate as much detail as you can muster (if that's not asking too much?) as it's an area of the games history/development I'm particularly interested in.

 

 

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On 17/07/2021 at 10:09, POR said:

that may be true but cant use it as an excuse don't forget this year isn't the first time they have dropped out all pre covid and before the RFL proposed the  catalan bond FIASCO  and besides I was merley pointing out  to How about a couple of French teams as well. bottom line the french don't want to be in 

OH just a thought S why didn't 1985 cup finalists  FEV drop out of both cups to concentrate on the championship🤣

If Fev could only be drawn away in France, might be a different story. And given the money spent on your squad, most games you have aren't that competitive anyway. 

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On 19/07/2021 at 11:05, Smudger06 said:

I was extremely dismissive of this Cup until the weekend, I saw for myself the potential it has, I was wrong, this will only grow in prestige the more teams are engraved on that Cup. 

There is great potential for this Cup. I am sure all Lower League players watching Saturday's Final would want to see be part of that occasion. The RFL must keep the Final as a Curtain Raiser to the Main Event and it can go from strength to strength.

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