Relegation Off?

[Fevrover]

48 minutes ago, Wholly Trinity said:

Featherstone could well be the new Keighley.

Despite the digs at the facilities in WMDC and the relative improvement in stadium quality provided by Fev, the "powers that be" do not want more than one club in the top flight, but definitely want to keep one.

It is a true hotbed of RL, even considering the recent decline in participation.  (3/10 women's SL teams).

The obvious answer was the M-word, but we know the history of that. 

IMHO, if/when one of the current teams gets a significant stadium improvement, the other will be dropped like a stone. Further, I'd say Trinity would be their preferred choice due to a slightly bigger potential following for a successful team. Fans who see this death race are dismissed as paranoid tin-hatters, but the existential threat is real and increasing.

I would say successive local governments over the last 50 years have missed an opportunity to develop the unique selling point of a district where RL is the only professional sport. They haven't been convinced by the long-term potential of RL.

 

Yeah POTENTIAL because Cas knock spots off Wakey for attendances.

[Wholly Trinity]

38 minutes ago, Fevrover said:

Yeah POTENTIAL because Cas knock spots off Wakey for attendances.

Crowds follow successful teams. Wakefield have not won a major competition since 1968. They haven't even contested a major final since 1979. Both Cas' and Fev's recent record is better. 

They have also been a financial basket case for a generation or two.

Which is why I said potential attendances. 

If WMDC had only one SL club and that club was reasonably successful with modern facilities (is that the biggest IF you've ever seen?), then a club carrying the Wakefield name would attract slightly bigger crowds (IMO).

That Wakefield can attract 5k+ with their current stadium facilities, financial limitations and recent record is strangely impressive. 

I would put current maximum potential, with RL in its current profile, as 15k for a 'Wakefield' team and 10k for a district team.

 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, crashmon said:

Its not about putting a London team in Superleague

its how do you engage the population outside the M62, who don't even know the RL exists.  Like I said before you would fill 200K for a England v NZ International in Union. In League you would be lucky to get 60K for a world cup final.

Where I live, Basketball, Icy Hockey and Netball have more awareness than RL does.

 

Exactly so Crashmon, in my job for 30+ years I travelled the length and breadth of the country and in conversation would always extoll the virtues of Rugby League Football, just the word 'Rugby' would throw a lot of people into deep confusion and remarks like "There are two different games?" and "What's the difference then?" And the most alarming thing was I did not have to travel far from the so called M62 corridor to get both these comments and ignorance of the existance of the sport. 

The truth is the term "The Greatest Game" is only a figment of the imagination of those brought up with the sport or of those few who have been converted, teams in new areas will take a very long time to establish themselves in this country into a major player - especially if the soccer monster is prevalent - RL is an organic product and will take time to nurture and grow, those who believe a club will be successful by just being in SL because they are in an area of high populas are sadly mistaken.

 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

The Championship and L1 clubs receive approx £7.5M, the RFL approx £2.5M and the SL clubs the remaining £30M in the current deal. For the SL clubs to still be receiving the same after a £10M cut then nobody below SL including the RFL would have to receive anything at all, and thats not going to happen.

If it did just watch the building come tumbling down, because if it is even considered to undermine the foundations that will surely happen.

Firstly the semi pro clubs will go, the amatuer/community game will suffer, even less youngsters and players coming through, result being the sport dies and slow and painful death.

[steve oates]

17 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

You just have no understanding do you of just how bad a financial position the clubs and the game is in at the moment do you ?

 

This season is still operating on the back of the last year of the current SKY deal and so you are right. I think the clubs meet in August to face the bleak future they have.

[sweaty craiq]

SL will get £20m, Catalans and TO will need to sort out their own deal, leaving the other 12 to divi the rest up - all sorted.

[steve oates]

18 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

There is a pretty easy solution to this but it would have to wait until Leigh's relegation would be confirmed..............

This is going to create exactly what most people want with a 14 team SL..

I don't think people like Moran, Lenegan or McManus invited Mr. Beaumont into Superleague just to throw him out again, nor do I think Mr. Beaumont ever believed Leigh had a chance of avoiding bottom place......

[Rupert Prince]

4 minutes ago, steve oates said:

I don't think people like Moran, Lenegan or McManus invited Mr. Beaumont into Superleague just to throw him out again, nor do I think Mr. Beaumont ever believed Leigh had a chance of avoiding bottom place......

They were not the ones inviting Leigh in.

[steve oates]

7 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

 Catalans and TO will need to sort out their own deal

There is no "deal" Catalans actually pay the French TV company to show their games because without TV coverage/exposure  Mr. Gausch believes the Catalans would suffer financially. That deal that costs Gausch money has ended anyway.

[RP London]

5 minutes ago, steve oates said:

I don't think people like Moran, Lenegan or McManus invited Mr. Beaumont into Superleague just to throw him out again, nor do I think Mr. Beaumont ever believed Leigh had a chance of avoiding bottom place......

i think thats exactly what they did and i think Mr Beaumont knew that.. I think what he was working on was there was money to be made in Super League with having fixtures on and being on telly, that he could not make in the championship this season. There was also the chance that they would not relegate them (if covid hit again) and it was better to be in if that happened than not. 

He hasnt spent like a mad man and therefore next year he should be able to bounce back up.. 

personally as much as i think the decision was flawed from the SL/RFL i dont blame DB for giving it a go, if they survive somehow it will have been a great decision, if they dont but he has managed it well then Leigh are still possibly in a better situation than they could have been. 

[steve oates]

3 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

They were not the ones inviting Leigh in.

"An independent panel, led by Lord Jonathan Caine and compromising three members from the Rugby Football League governing body and three from Super League, made the decision".

Yes they were.......

 

[Rupert Prince]

4 hours ago, RP London said:

Except that 4th place team could still be the best team/squad to go up. The butterfly effect of time travel is a major consideration. If you change one thing, even the smallest tiniest detail, you can change everything thereafter. 

A team that is in a system with the play offs knows it needs to make the play offs as the first stage, then after they have to be on top form for knock out rugby. Therefore you enter the play offs at your peak. Before that you can rest players at points during the season, you can try out new combinations, youngsters etc knowing that the key is to hit the play offs with the best set up and with everyone in peak condition. Like it or not that's what they can do. 

Teams may aim for the top for an easier ride through and to take confidence but other teams decide to do it a different way.

If clubs know from day one that they must come top to go up then they plan and structure everything from day one of pre season (maybe even squad selection) to win every single league game. 

You cannot say, while we have the play offs, that the team that comes top is the best team etc because it just isn't the system in place and other teams are playing that system to the best of their advantage.. 

There is no logic to that.

The same logic suggests that there should be a bottom 4 play off for relegation...  which is of course equally absurd.

Far to many people far far far too many people are living in cloud cuckoo land. 

Or more precisely, 1971 not 2021.

[Rupert Prince]

7 minutes ago, steve oates said:

"An independent panel, led by Lord Jonathan Caine and compromising three members from the Rugby Football League governing body and three from Super League, made the decision".

Yes they were.......

3 from SL 3 from RFL...

[RP London]

10 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

There is no logic to that.

The same logic suggests that there should be a bottom 4 play off for relegation...  which is of course equally absurd.

Far to many people far far far too many people are living in cloud cuckoo land. 

Or more precisely, 1971 not 2021.

no thats rubbish..

I'm not saying that play offs are right or that they are wrong.. I am not saying they are the right way to product champions or get relegated.. what i am saying is that in a system where we have the play offs then to say that the team that finished 4th and goes on to win them is not the worthy champions is illogical.. teams prepare and they work to the rules that are set out at the beginning of the season. If the rule that had been in place was that top wins then you would see a completely different looking table (potentially. change one small thing and everything changes). 

In terms of the bottom of the table the same argument stands. It is what you start the season with and therefore teams play to that.. proven by the period with the Super 8s. When a team was destined for the middle 8 they potentially rested a few players to be ready for the most important part of the season which was to stay up.. where they finished in the bottom 4 didnt overly matter, what mattered was where they finished in the middle 8s. The bottom team was not necessarily the worst (or second to bottom second worst etc) as it was irrelevant to the final goal of staying up.

[steve oates]

1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said:

3 from SL 3 from RFL...

So your analysis is that the three from SL had no greater say than the three from the RLF. Come on mate don't play games, the SKY money was paid to Superleague this time. They can dictate the set up 2022 onwards

 

[steve oates]

On 17/07/2021 at 14:42, Spidey said:

I missed it but plenty of noise that Mark Chapman announced that there will be no relegation from SL this year?  Does that mean no promotion either, or will It be a 13 or 14 team SL in 2022?

Let's get back to the OP...........

Mark Chapman probably get's his information from John Davison see here.............

____________________________________________________________________________________

"Superleague signed a new deal with Sky until the end of 2023 believed to be worth about £26m a year, down on the existing £40m-a-year deal that runs out this season.  The large cut  is set to affect the RFL and the Championships the worst.

Clubs are yet to be told what they will receive.  SL & the RFL are in negotiations over how the money will be split. Fear is some lower-division clubs may go to the wall and a potential restructure from three leagues into two divisions of 10 clubs each has even been mooted.

The fear is  we will lose clubs. One SL club admitted there not a strong demand for our sport. The sport in the UK simply cannot continue in its current guise. There is no longer enough money to maintain the same level of professional clubs and players. Change must come, it will be brutal and harsh"……John Davison I news…

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Again Superleague have the SKY money that is dropping from 40M a year to 26M a year. Massive drop leaving the championship clubs with nothing.

That money has to be used to pay for top class professional RL for SKY to televise. If we want another deal in two years everything looks like it will go into 12 chosen club and maybe just 10. Catalans are trying very hard to justify a place with great performances using a good number of french lads, and Gausch is a big benefactor so they may get in unless the lack of a French TV deal is used against them, Leigh's Beaumont is keen to invest so they may well get in. Salford look to have no chance now they are moving to Moor Lane.

Depressing yes, but it may be a bit of fun to pick your 10 SL club bankers and two reserves for 2022.  

[sweaty craiq]

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

There is no "deal" Catalans actually pay the French TV company to show their games because without TV coverage/exposure  Mr. Gausch believes the Catalans would suffer financially. That deal that costs Gausch money has ended anyway.

You missed my point, no sky money for the two french clubs in the expanded 14 team comp, they get tasked with funding themselves fully in times of austerity. £20m to the 12 SL clubs and the rest to RFL for distribution with CC deals etc

[Blind side johnny]

16 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

In the absurd event of p&r, it is doubly absurd to detarmine promotion by a play off system.

Such a system could allow say 4th team... miles behind on points... to get promoted over a team top of table by loads of points.

And if someone says that would never happen, then why bother with the play offs anyway!

The clubs don't play each other home and away this season so the final table could equally be defined as absurd.

I guess that the fact that the Championship clubs agreed to this system before the season commenced is also absurd.

[Smudger06]

12 Clubs in SL with only 10 Clubs in one Division below seems like something they might do. Unfortunately. 

They'll want to revert back to the pre covid 2019 structure of 29 rounds and top 5 Playoffs and the 66 games Sky deal for £26m per season (don't forget sky are producing all games which is a massive hidden benefit with a large £ value in itself) looks like its set up for that.

56 regular season matches 28 Thursday & 28 Friday games. 

All 6 magic weekend games 

3 SL Playoff games (1st pick; 1 per week)

Grand Final 

Then 10 Clubs below to maintain 1 up 1 down for the freshen up effect, extra player pool, reserve of Clubs if needed. And all the other useful tasks a 2nd tier can perform. These clubs might get £4m to share, depends how BBC games go and PPV streaming etc, both of SL games not selected for Sky & Champ games. 

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

Let's get back to the OP...........

Mark Chapman probably get's his information from John Davison see here.............

____________________________________________________________________________________

"Superleague signed a new deal with Sky until the end of 2023 believed to be worth about £26m a year, down on the existing £40m-a-year deal that runs out this season.  The large cut  is set to affect the RFL and the Championships the worst.

Clubs are yet to be told what they will receive.  SL & the RFL are in negotiations over how the money will be split. Fear is some lower-division clubs may go to the wall and a potential restructure from three leagues into two divisions of 10 clubs each has even been mooted.

The fear is  we will lose clubs. One SL club admitted there not a strong demand for our sport. The sport in the UK simply cannot continue in its current guise. There is no longer enough money to maintain the same level of professional clubs and players. Change must come, it will be brutal and harsh"……John Davison I news…

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Again Superleague have the SKY money that is dropping from 40M a year to 26M a year. Massive drop leaving the championship clubs with nothing.

That money has to be used to pay for top class professional RL for SKY to televise. If we want another deal in two years everything looks like it will go into 12 chosen club and maybe just 10. Catalans are trying very hard to justify a place with great performances using a good number of french lads, and Gausch is a big benefactor so they may get in unless the lack of a French TV deal is used against them, Leigh's Beaumont is keen to invest so they may well get in. Salford look to have no chance now they are moving to Moor Lane.

Depressing yes, but it may be a bit of fun to pick your 10 SL club bankers and two reserves for 2022.  

How does that equate to no relegation?  That'd mean 4 teams going down?

 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

They were not the ones inviting Leigh in.

Has they did not voice the words coming out of Robert Elstones mouth, but I think he was told what and not to say by the mentioned Fun Boy Three.

Do you honestly believe Princey that there was no discussion between The "INDEPENDENT" Panel and the SL hierarchy over the choice of club to be awarded the "poison chalice"? 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, steve oates said:

There is no "deal" Catalans actually pay the French TV company to show their games because without TV coverage/exposure  Mr. Gausch believes the Catalans would suffer financially. That deal that costs Gausch money has ended anyway.

Hi Steve, yes I saw that Bien Sports required more money from Catalans to further broadcast their games once the current contract expires, or is it there will just be a straight cut off and no more TV exposure?

So by your judgement what does Mr Gausch do next, suffer financially or ask SL to fund it?

[Lowdesert]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Steve, yes I saw that Bien Sports required more money from Catalans to further broadcast their games once the current contract expires, or is it there will just be a straight cut off and no more TV exposure?

So by your judgement what does Mr Gausch do next, suffer financially or ask SL to fund it?

A long way to go yet but it would not surprise me if the Mairie provided further funding if Catalans won the GF.  I seem to remember their funding increased and USAF’s reduced last time around.  

Another angle is that SLE make Cats a full member.  

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

A long way to go yet but it would not surprise me if the Mairie provided further funding if Catalans won the GF.  I seem to remember their funding increased and USAF’s reduced last time around.  

Another angle is that SLE make Cats a full member.  

And where would that leave Toulouse should they win promotion?

[Smudger06]

Catalans are a full member of SLE, not of the RFL though.