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Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)


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7 hours ago, jim_57 said:

The World Cup qualifiers were 3-4 years ago, there will be massive changes regardless and International Rugby League World Cup places shouldn’t be a charity honestly. Sure if the incumbents and home grown players are in a similar form & ability pick them over “blow ins”.

Fans cry foul every 4 years that players come out of the woodwork for World Cups. These players might play between World Cups if there was a decent schedule in place with regular meaningful games. I don’t exactly blame players for not wanting to come over to play a friendlies against England Knights and Wales for free and risk injury.

You completely miss the point. There is also nothing charitable about players that have earned a World Cup place playing in a World Cup, that's complete nonsense. If we had what you say then as things stand it would still do sweet fa when it comes to developing the game in Ireland. What you say is great for the RLWC but it's absolutely no use for Irish RL. As I have already said.

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7 hours ago, jim_57 said:

The World Cup qualifiers were 3-4 years ago, there will be massive changes regardless and International Rugby League World Cup places shouldn’t be a charity honestly. Sure if the incumbents and home grown players are in a similar form & ability pick them over “blow ins”.

Fans cry foul every 4 years that players come out of the woodwork for World Cups. These players might play between World Cups if there was a decent schedule in place with regular meaningful games. I don’t exactly blame players for not wanting to come over to play a friendlies against England Knights and Wales for free and risk injury.

What about the players in super league who don't show up for World Cup qualifiers or euro games? You do realise that PI players, in both union and league travel around the world to play for their nations, often at their own expense! 

You say you don't blame players for not travelling over for games like that, fair enough I don't either. But at the same time I don't blame players for jacking in the game when they are jettisoned for a guy who puts his hand up for selection in the eleventh hour. 

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2 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

What about the players in super league who don't show up for World Cup qualifiers or euro games? You do realise that PI players, in both union and league travel around the world to play for their nations, often at their own expense! 

You say you don't blame players for not travelling over for games like that, fair enough I don't either. But at the same time I don't blame players for jacking in the game when they are jettisoned for a guy who puts his hand up for selection in the eleventh hour. 

Yeah it's not accurate to try and portray Ireland as having no schedule or games. Pre-Covid they played in 5 European Championships between 2010 and 2018 with World Cups and qualifiers in other years. There has been plenty of opportunity for heritage players to play for Ireland every year if they so desire.

I don't think anyone has an issue with heritage players like Simon Grix and Tyrone McCarthy who have put their hand up time and again and do their best to contribute to Irish RL. Blow ins, as described by Jim, who are only interested at World Cup time and are never to be seen again are a different story.

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As an Irishman, I have mixed feelings on players ''coming out of the woodwork'' for World Cups.

I have really admired players such as Littler, Foy, Finn, McCarthy, etc. who have fully committed and played consistently for the team.

I struggle though to get enthused at the prospect of a virtually fully heritage squad. 

The Wolfhounds do need more meaningful, regular games as well.

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

Yeah it's not accurate to try and portray Ireland as having no schedule or games. Pre-Covid they played in 5 European Championships between 2010 and 2018 with World Cups and qualifiers in other years. There has been plenty of opportunity for heritage players to play for Ireland every year if they so desire.

I don't think anyone has an issue with heritage players like Simon Grix and Tyrone McCarthy who have put their hand up time and again and do their best to contribute to Irish RL. Blow ins, as described by Jim, who are only interested at World Cup time and are never to be seen again are a different story.

They have had a relatively regular schedule and games covid aside, but the key word you've failed to address here is "meaningful". When the only RL powerhouse in the Europe has disregarded the European Championship for the best part of two decades we unfortunately could not consider those competitions as meaningful to the extent that may entice some these "blow-ins" to compete more regularly. 

Now that is absolutely a shame that these guys aren't committed to the level of a Grix who turn out irrespective of the opponent, stadia, coverage, consequences etc but the pragmatic reality is that RL needs to actually create a platform these "blow-in" players are drawn to if they are to regularly commit. While it is true a Luke Keary doesn't register in Ireland if we could build a semi-competitive European Championship product that sees Ireland regularly playing against a known RL powerhouse such as England in front of Irish crowds and media then there is potential for inroads to be made.

Now this still wouldn't defeat the problems caused by a team full of heritage players but the key there needs to be developing pathways to the professional game (particularly at a junior level) so that domestic products such as Ronan Michael can reach this level of their own merit - no team full of community game open age Irish players is ever going to be remotely competitive with England, certainly not in any time frame that is relevant to our lives. If we are able to create this meaningful European Championship suddenly we could end up with a dozen Grix's who are in every single Ireland 17 and as you've said these types of heritage players would be much less offensive to spectators. Pair this with genuine pathways for domestic talent to reach the professional game and the benefits of a heritage-inflated Ireland side outweigh the negatives IMO.

Ireland is obviously the talking point here but Wales and Scotland are effectively the same story transplanted with differing levels of domestic activity already occurring. 

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3 hours ago, Damien said:

You completely miss the point. There is also nothing charitable about players that have earned a World Cup place playing in a World Cup, that's complete nonsense. If we had what you say then as things stand it would still do sweet fa when it comes to developing the game in Ireland. What you say is great for the RLWC but it's absolutely no use for Irish RL. As I have already said.

No I completely understood it and stand by my comments, the qualifiers were in 2018 & 2019, 3 & 4 years ago. Of course players from that series should be looked upon favourably but it shouldn’t overcome a shear gap in playing level if different heritage players are committed. Ireland’s group opponents Lebanon will have no such sentiment I’d imagine.

Growing the game in Ireland isn’t directly linked to the makeup of the Irish national side and it’s players and nor should it be. If a homegrown player makes his way up the leagues to a level where they can make the side and play in World Cups (like Brian Carney or Ronan Michael) fair play to them. Amateur players from a small domestic comp in Ireland probably shouldn’t expect to be playing against the likes of Joseph Manu, James Fisher-Harris or Mitchell Moses. There should be an Ireland ‘A’ for these types of players definitely, there used to be not sure if there still is.

Instead of complaining about these players like Keary only coming out of the woodwork for World Cups maybe we should be asking why they or probably more to the point their clubs aren’t interested in the alternating years. Probably because these nations for the most part are drip-fed a few random games /tournaments with no real structures and ambition. You can say they play Euro Cup & World Cup qualifiers but in reality it is a “best of the rest” Euro Cup without England and WCQs where they are never realistically not going to qualify.

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2 hours ago, Keith989 said:

What about the players in super league who don't show up for World Cup qualifiers or euro games? You do realise that PI players, in both union and league travel around the world to play for their nations, often at their own expense! 

You say you don't blame players for not travelling over for games like that, fair enough I don't either. But at the same time I don't blame players for jacking in the game when they are jettisoned for a guy who puts his hand up for selection in the eleventh hour. 

As above I think the main question we should be asking there is why these players and/or their clubs want to sit it out between World Cups.

All they typically get between World Cups is World Cup qualifiers where all they really have to do to qualify is beat Serbia & Spain. Then Euro games where the best side sits it out or better yet sends their B team, all with no real reward on the line most of the time.

A basic start to improve things would be annual tiered tri-series starting with England/France/Ireland (1) & Wales/Scotland/Italy (2) with P&R. Also once every World Cup cycle a full euro cup featuring England at full strength, doubling as a qualifier for the wily & elusive “2nd IRL tournament”.

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22 minutes ago, UTK said:

They have had a relatively regular schedule and games covid aside, but the key word you've failed to address here is "meaningful". When the only RL powerhouse in the Europe has disregarded the European Championship for the best part of two decades we unfortunately could not consider those competitions as meaningful to the extent that may entice some these "blow-ins" to compete more regularly. 

Now that is absolutely a shame that these guys aren't committed to the level of a Grix who turn out irrespective of the opponent, stadia, coverage, consequences etc but the pragmatic reality is that RL needs to actually create a platform these "blow-in" players are drawn to if they are to regularly commit. While it is true a Luke Keary doesn't register in Ireland if we could build a semi-competitive European Championship product that sees Ireland regularly playing against a known RL powerhouse such as England in front of Irish crowds and media then there is potential for inroads to be made.

Now this still wouldn't defeat the problems caused by a team full of heritage players but the key there needs to be developing pathways to the professional game (particularly at a junior level) so that domestic products such as Ronan Michael can reach this level of their own merit - no team full of community game open age Irish players is ever going to be remotely competitive with England, certainly not in any time frame that is relevant to our lives. If we are able to create this meaningful European Championship suddenly we could end up with a dozen Grix's who are in every single Ireland 17 and as you've said these types of heritage players would be much less offensive to spectators. Pair this with genuine pathways for domestic talent to reach the professional game and the benefits of a heritage-inflated Ireland side outweigh the negatives IMO.

Ireland is obviously the talking point here but Wales and Scotland are effectively the same story transplanted with differing levels of domestic activity already occurring. 

Hows a European Championship and games against France and Wales not meaningful? This snobbery when it comes to games is exactly what holds the game back and which has seen the likes of Ben Flower and Gil Dudson rarely play for Wales because they think they are too good. These players and nations have to earn the right and prove they are worthy, as Tonga have done.

I completely disagree with the notion that teams like Ireland should just be gifted games against tier 1 nations to simply try and entice a Luke Cleary to play. It's nonsense. If we are talking about games against England then Ireland should be way down the pecking order behind France and Wales. At least they have bone fide domestic activity and clubs. Any games against England would also take place mid season when players like Luke Cleary wouldn't be interested anyway.

I don't know how many times it has to be said that no one in Ireland cares about heritage sides in a sport that isn't played here. They haven't for 20+ years and certainly won't this time around. On this I'm quite pragmatic in that there are benefits to the World Cup and RL and it is what it is. I can certainly accept it from that point of view. However lets not kid ourselves that there are benefits to the game in Ireland.

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51 minutes ago, UTK said:

They have had a relatively regular schedule and games covid aside, but the key word you've failed to address here is "meaningful". When the only RL powerhouse in the Europe has disregarded the European Championship for the best part of two decades we unfortunately could not consider those competitions as meaningful to the extent that may entice some these "blow-ins" to compete more regularly. 

Now that is absolutely a shame that these guys aren't committed to the level of a Grix who turn out irrespective of the opponent, stadia, coverage, consequences etc but the pragmatic reality is that RL needs to actually create a platform these "blow-in" players are drawn to if they are to regularly commit. While it is true a Luke Keary doesn't register in Ireland if we could build a semi-competitive European Championship product that sees Ireland regularly playing against a known RL powerhouse such as England in front of Irish crowds and media then there is potential for inroads to be made.

Now this still wouldn't defeat the problems caused by a team full of heritage players but the key there needs to be developing pathways to the professional game (particularly at a junior level) so that domestic products such as Ronan Michael can reach this level of their own merit - no team full of community game open age Irish players is ever going to be remotely competitive with England, certainly not in any time frame that is relevant to our lives. If we are able to create this meaningful European Championship suddenly we could end up with a dozen Grix's who are in every single Ireland 17 and as you've said these types of heritage players would be much less offensive to spectators. Pair this with genuine pathways for domestic talent to reach the professional game and the benefits of a heritage-inflated Ireland side outweigh the negatives IMO.

Ireland is obviously the talking point here but Wales and Scotland are effectively the same story transplanted with differing levels of domestic activity already occurring. 

That’s a good summary and addresses a few of the points I’m trying to get at. People argue that a heritage Ireland team does nothing for the game in Ireland but I’d argue back that no real attempt has ever really been made to try and capitalise on it.

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18 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

All they typically get between World Cups is World Cup qualifiers where all they really have to do to qualify is beat Serbia & Spain. Then Euro games where the best side sits it out or better yet sends their B team, all with no real reward on the line most of the time.

Sorry you are now being disingenuous. You have been told this is not the case, there were 5 European Championships in 8 years up to 2018. You have then chosen to completely ignore the fact there was Covid in 2020 and 2021. If these tournaments aren't appealing to NRL players then that's fine but don't expect a welcome mat for them just because they want to play in a World Cup.

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1 minute ago, jim_57 said:

That’s a good summary and addresses a few of the points I’m trying to get at. People argue that a heritage Ireland team does nothing for the game in Ireland but I’d argue back that no real attempt has ever really been made to try and capitalise on it.

Have you been to Ireland?  Have you been involved in the game in Ireland? People who live there are telling you what the situation is and that there have been zero benefits to this approach for 20+ years but you are choosing to completely ignore them from thousands of miles away. Bizarre.

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1 minute ago, Damien said:

Sorry you are now being disingenuous. You have been told this is not the case, there were 5 European Championships in 8 years up to 2018. You have then chosen to completely ignore the fact there was Covid in 2020 and 2021. If these tournaments aren't appealing to NRL players then that's fine but don't expect a welcome mat for them just because they want to play in a World Cup.

I know perfectly well that Euro Cups have been played regularly pre-covid and like I said none of them featured England. I’m no newbie to the International scene, you’re the one leaving out important little details to suit your argument. European Championships where the best team sits it out or sends their B team, like I said.

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Just now, jim_57 said:

I know perfectly well that Euro Cups have been played regularly pre-covid and like I said none of them featured England. I’m no newbie to the International scene, you’re the one leaving out important little details to suit your argument. European Championships where the best team sits it out or sends their B team, like I said.

Well dont ignore it repeatedly to paint a completely false picture.

Ireland aren't even on the level of Wales and France. They are way behind in every facet of development. They are barely ahead of Scotland. It's odd you think they have a divine right to play England. In a limited international calendar England play teams at their level end of season, that's only right. What you want to see is akin to demanding Australia play China every year because it has some ex pats. Mid season is different but as we all know these NRL players won't play then anyway.

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8 minutes ago, Damien said:

Have you been to Ireland?  Have you been involved in the game in Ireland? People who live there are telling you what the situation is and that there have been zero benefits to this approach for 20+ years but you are choosing to completely ignore them from thousands of miles away. Bizarre.

Been to Ireland yes, involved in the game no. What’s your point? This is a forum, if you want to dismiss people’s points because of where they were born I find that “bizarre”. I trust you’ll sit out any future discussions about the 15 nations other than England this World Cup.

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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well dont ignore it repeatedly to paint a completely false picture.

Ireland aren't even on the level of Wales and France. They are way behind in every facet of development. They are barely ahead of Scotland. It's odd you think they have a divine right to play England. In a limited international calendar England play teams at their level end of season, that's only right. What you want to see is akin to demanding Australia play China every year because it has some ex pats. Mid season is different but as we all know these NRL players won't play then anyway.

As you say, if England sends its best XIII to the European Championships there's still a pretty decent chance none of their games would be against Ireland.

But Ireland would still have 3-4 European Championship fixtures to fulfil, as it does most years.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, Damien said:

Well dont ignore it repeatedly to paint a completely false picture.

Ireland aren't even on the level of Wales and France. They are way behind in every facet of development. They are barely ahead of Scotland. It's odd you think they have a divine right to play England. In a limited international calendar England play teams at their level end of season, that's only right. What you want to see is akin to demanding Australia play China every year because it has some ex pats. Mid season is different but as we all know these NRL players won't play then anyway.

I addressed the reality that Euro Cup games & World Cup qualifiers aren’t the prestigious events you have made them out to be. You can blame England for that in the Euro Cup for either ignoring it or sending out a B team for a full international tournament.

I’d liken it more to NZ playing Tonga instead of Fiji or PNG, Fiji & PNG are far more “developed” but Tonga is the stronger team and bigger draw for NZ. You said yourself they had earned their spot so by that logic if Ireland go further than France or Wales at the World Cup should they be ahead of those teams? If Ireland made the World Cup semis with heritage players it would be no different to what Tonga did in 2017.

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7 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

Been to Ireland yes, involved in the game no. What’s your point? This is a forum, if you want to dismiss people’s points because of where they were born I find that “bizarre”. I trust you’ll sit out any future discussions about the 15 nations other than England this World Cup.

No but when you are being disingenuous, repeating statements despite being told its not the case and ignoring what people are saying who are on the ground it is a completely different matter. Let's just leave it there.

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1 minute ago, jim_57 said:

I addressed the reality that Euro Cup games & World Cup qualifiers aren’t the prestigious events you have made them out to be. You can blame England for that in the Euro Cup for either ignoring it or sending out a B team for a full international tournament.

I’d liken it more to NZ playing Tonga instead of Fiji or PNG, Fiji & PNG are far more “developed” but Tonga is the stronger team and bigger draw for NZ. You said yourself they had earned their spot so by that logic if Ireland go further than France or Wales at the World Cup should they be ahead of those teams? If Ireland made the World Cup semis with heritage players it would be no different to what Tonga did in 2017.

I have not made them out to be prestigious events. Not once. They are though regular games which you said Ireland don't get. It's clear they do and its also clear that other profesional RL players are happy to play in them.

If NRL players were that keen to represent Ireland they would play in them and then earn the right for Ireland to play in prestigious fixtures. As is they find their Irish roots all of a sudden when a World Cup comes along. They could do what the likes of Tyrone McCarthy and Scott Grix do but don't.

It's also nothing like NZ playing those teams. RL is played and widely followed in all those places. The NRL is also the premier Rugby competition in the Pacific, hoovers up the Rugby talent and those countries have home grown players playing at the top level. That is not the case in Ireland where it barely exists beyond a handful of RU players playing in the off season. RL is a blip on the radar in England never mind Ireland. The likes of Tonga are welcomed in Tonga and by the Tongan diaspora in NZ and Rugby is huge. Ireland are treated with ridicule and people are surprised there is even a team as they don't play it, its not even on the sporting radar. The situations couldn't be more different.

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3 hours ago, jim_57 said:

No I completely understood it and stand by my comments, the qualifiers were in 2018 & 2019, 3 & 4 years ago. Of course players from that series should be looked upon favourably but it shouldn’t overcome a shear gap in playing level if different heritage players are committed. Ireland’s group opponents Lebanon will have no such sentiment I’d imagine.

Growing the game in Ireland isn’t directly linked to the makeup of the Irish national side and it’s players and nor should it be. If a homegrown player makes his way up the leagues to a level where they can make the side and play in World Cups (like Brian Carney or Ronan Michael) fair play to them. Amateur players from a small domestic comp in Ireland probably shouldn’t expect to be playing against the likes of Joseph Manu, James Fisher-Harris or Mitchell Moses. There should be an Ireland ‘A’ for these types of players definitely, there used to be not sure if there still is.

Instead of complaining about these players like Keary only coming out of the woodwork for World Cups maybe we should be asking why they or probably more to the point their clubs aren’t interested in the alternating years. Probably because these nations for the most part are drip-fed a few random games /tournaments with no real structures and ambition. You can say they play Euro Cup & World Cup qualifiers but in reality it is a “best of the rest” Euro Cup without England and WCQs where they are never realistically not going to qualify.

I think this is where the 8N Fed Cup they were going to run was going to do a good job of giving lower ranked teams the opportunity to play in bigger comps in between WC's. 

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8 hours ago, Damien said:

Hows a European Championship and games against France and Wales not meaningful? This snobbery when it comes to games is exactly what holds the game back and which has seen the likes of Ben Flower and Gil Dudson rarely play for Wales because they think they are too good. These players and nations have to earn the right and prove they are worthy, as Tonga have done.

I completely disagree with the notion that teams like Ireland should just be gifted games against tier 1 nations to simply try and entice a Luke Cleary to play. It's nonsense. If we are talking about games against England then Ireland should be way down the pecking order behind France and Wales. At least they have bone fide domestic activity and clubs. Any games against England would also take place mid season when players like Luke Cleary wouldn't be interested anyway.

I don't know how many times it has to be said that no one in Ireland cares about heritage sides in a sport that isn't played here. They haven't for 20+ years and certainly won't this time around. On this I'm quite pragmatic in that there are benefits to the World Cup and RL and it is what it is. I can certainly accept it from that point of view. However lets not kid ourselves that there are benefits to the game in Ireland.

It's not meaningful because ultimately these games are overwhelmingly played at lower league or even park football grounds in front of a handful of people, the prize for winning is being denoted European "Champions" despite the strongest team in Europe not playing. Tonga only proved themselves in a World Cup, and historically had the exact same problem with players committing as Ireland with players only turning out for a World Cup - the mid-season tests were the beginning of this change as a regular opportunity was given to these players to represent their nation with extensive media coverage in a dedicated round alongside other "top tier" representative fixtures. Then as soon as 2017 happened Tonga had matches locked in against Australia and NZ for the next two years, if Ireland do a similar thing at this years World Cup will England play them in 2023?

Ireland had a very good 2017 as well, not to the level of Tonga obviously but they showed what a "full-strength" Ireland could be capable of by flogging Wales and Italy but narrowly losing to PNG (a team GB were beaten by just 2 years later). If Ireland make the Quarter Finals in the WC this year will that have earnt them the right to play England? What arbitrary mark must be reached before a side such as Ireland are considered for a fixture v England in their notoriously exclusive international calendar. If we are to insist on sides earning the right to play teams at a higher level then England would not have earned the right to play Australia, it's now been 16 years since GB last beat Aus and they haven't won a major tournament in even longer. See how terrible would it be for the sport if we invoked these arbitrary thresholds on Nations rather than just actually getting off our backsides and filling the currently non-existent international calendar.

I agree that France and Wales are ahead in the pecking order but Keary was the player sparking discussion and Ireland would be involved in the European Championship anyway, during that 2010-2018 span the Euros have never taken place mid-season so the NRL players issue just isn't correct (not that NRL players are necessary anyway).

Yes, Ireland may not care about a heritage side playing for them but they also don't care about their domestic talent playing internationals in a park. So in the meantime we have England playing in the top tier of the European Championships giving regular games to the likes of Ireland, Wales and France - games that due to the presence of England will be given far greater coverage than recent iterations without and has the potential to draw spectators looking for International RL (even if only decent crowds are received in England and France initially). Behind this work must obviously be continued to strengthen Ireland domestically, particularly at a juniors level where we have seen recent internationals between Ireland and other home nations so that we can create a viable pathway for kids such as Ronan Michael to enter the professional game.

That way, in 10-15 years when we see more Michaels coming into a professional system there is an already established prestigious NH International competition where Ireland/Wales/France regularly play internationals against England. Rather than getting to this point and realising we've finally got a semi-domestic Ireland and we now have to spend the time building a premier competition for them to compete in because England would rather have played against made up teams for the last few decades than actually do something that doesn't just benefit them.

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13 hours ago, Damien said:

I have not made them out to be prestigious events. Not once. They are though regular games which you said Ireland don't get. It's clear they do and its also clear that other profesional RL players are happy to play in them.

If NRL players were that keen to represent Ireland they would play in them and then earn the right for Ireland to play in prestigious fixtures. As is they find their Irish roots all of a sudden when a World Cup comes along. They could do what the likes of Tyrone McCarthy and Scott Grix do but don't.

It's also nothing like NZ playing those teams. RL is played and widely followed in all those places. The NRL is also the premier Rugby competition in the Pacific, hoovers up the Rugby talent and those countries have home grown players playing at the top level. That is not the case in Ireland where it barely exists beyond a handful of RU players playing in the off season. RL is a blip on the radar in England never mind Ireland. The likes of Tonga are welcomed in Tonga and by the Tongan diaspora in NZ and Rugby is huge. Ireland are treated with ridicule and people are surprised there is even a team as they don't play it, its not even on the sporting radar. The situations couldn't be more different.

I said regular meaningful, again you exclude the key word. A Euro Cup with nothing really on the line and the best side sitting out isn’t a solution. It’s better than nothing sure but like a said having an annual tri-series and full Euro Cup once a cycle acting as qualifiers for a Confed Cup style tournament would be a lot better. 

I think you’ll find that even if these eligible NRL & Super League players were keen their clubs would make every effort to block them playing. That’s not the way it should be but unfortunately that’s the reality. An improved regular structure with clear paths to qualify for the top tournaments and the best teams involved wherever possible can only help.

You implied that Wales & France should get preferential treatment because they’re more developed, that is exactly like saying PNG & Fiji should get more/better games than Tonga or Samoa because they’re more developed. You randomly brought China in to it.

You keep saying that having a heritage team for Ireland has done nothing for the game in Ireland. How do you think the local game would improve if they went with more homegrown players and the more loyal heritage players in the top national team? They’d slip down the rankings, get pumped in World Cups and Euro Cups. How does that improve things on the ground? Not that I think the heritage team is a magic bullet for improving things either, like I said I don’t think the makeup of the national team should have much to do with the development of the amateur game. No point throwing out the baby with the bath water.

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2 hours ago, jim_57 said:

I said regular meaningful, again you exclude the key word. A Euro Cup with nothing really on the line and the best side sitting out isn’t a solution. It’s better than nothing sure but like a said having an annual tri-series and full Euro Cup once a cycle acting as qualifiers for a Confed Cup style tournament would be a lot better. 

I think you’ll find that even if these eligible NRL & Super League players were keen their clubs would make every effort to block them playing. That’s not the way it should be but unfortunately that’s the reality. An improved regular structure with clear paths to qualify for the top tournaments and the best teams involved wherever possible can only help.

You implied that Wales & France should get preferential treatment because they’re more developed, that is exactly like saying PNG & Fiji should get more/better games than Tonga or Samoa because they’re more developed. You randomly brought China in to it.

You keep saying that having a heritage team for Ireland has done nothing for the game in Ireland. How do you think the local game would improve if they went with more homegrown players and the more loyal heritage players in the top national team? They’d slip down the rankings, get pumped in World Cups and Euro Cups. How does that improve things on the ground? Not that I think the heritage team is a magic bullet for improving things either, like I said I don’t think the makeup of the national team should have much to do with the development of the amateur game. No point throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Ireland aren't playing against England even if there's a fully developed European Championship in play next season.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Which is symptomatic of the major problem England has. 

I have it the other way round. It's where Ireland are in the scheme of things. If we ran a European Championship on a Nations League style - which we almost do a lot of the time - then England and Ireland would be in separate divisions right now.

I'm really not buying any argument that says it's England's fault in any way that Ireland's heritage players don't travel to play in their regular competitive fixtures.

(A wider debate about International RL's prestige and where exactly the money is, yes. 'England have to play Ireland for a game to count, no.')

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I have it the other way round. It's where Ireland are in the scheme of things. If we ran a European Championship on a Nations League style - which we almost do a lot of the time - then England and Ireland would be in separate divisions right now.

I'm really not buying any argument that says it's England's fault in any way that Ireland's heritage players don't travel to play in their regular competitive fixtures.

(A wider debate about International RL's prestige and where exactly the money is, yes. 'England have to play Ireland for a game to count, no.')

I think England, as the only nation in the Northern Hemisphere which can carry serious media, sponsorship and broadcast interest, could be incredibly helpful to lift these nations from the park fields and one bloke with a casio video recorder levels.

Australia, like it or not, has done that for the Pacific Islands. I hope they can grow beyond that now too, but the foundational leg up ultimately has been driven by Australian (and to a lesser extent Kiwi) assistance.

The reality is that few RL players, even and especially Australian RL Players, will pay thousands of pounds to fly across the world to play in an amateur tournament without the resources and facilities. 

Whilst it of course isn't England's job to build up these nations, it is also a direct consequence of not doing so that means England are stuffed if the NRL/ARL says no. It is absolutely in England's interest to build up our nearest competitors. We have failed to do so comprehensively in the past decade, despite the significant opportunities presented. 

Absolutely fair to say England shouldn't impact the development of nations around it. Equally fair to acknowledge that doing nothing has a cost too.

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