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Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)


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5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not an unfair point though, only 3 of the 11 who started against England at Italia 90 were born in Ireland. 

Any minority sport is going to rely on heritage players if it can. The trick is to use them as best as possible to increase income and popularity.

It's nonsense and a real lazy argument with absolutely no understanding of how popular Soccer is in Ireland. It is huge and is certainly not a minority sport. It is widely played and thousands travel across the water every week to watch games. People have a huge connection with it and Ireland have always had plenty of top flight Soccer players. Any heritage players supplement that.

It is not a case of an entirely false and artificial team playing a sport that no one plays, few watch and hardly anyone has any connection to. 

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33 minutes ago, Damien said:

And there it is. It was only a matter of time.

Soccer is huge in Ireland and widely played and followed. Jack Charlton's teams also had a fair number of home grown players. It's a really stupid comparison. 

If you look at the match in the 94 WC that the Irish call their best ever result against Italy then of the 13 players who played that day 9 were not born in Ireland.... as well as big Jack.

Don't let some facts get in your way though.

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11 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

How many of them had only decided to play once they knew they'd be playing England in the World Cup?

International football full stop has as big an attraction as playing in any International RL tournament, the carrot of that was carrot enough for most.

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4 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

It is not a case of an entirely false and artificial team playing a sport that no one plays, few watch and hardly anyone has any connection to. 

Seems like you resent a team representing Ireland is playing in the Rugby WC - very sad.

How do you get publicity if you don't even try?

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16 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is snobbery and you do a great disservice to those professional players that play for Ireland time and again. As you do the Welsh and French professional players. There is absolutely nothing stopping games between those nations being meaningful and competitive.

I can't think of any other sport in which people would be arguing that a country where the game isn't played to any meaningful level and has only a handful of teams based around RU players and clubs has a right to play the best countries in the world.

Its not snobbery its facts. 

Without English (and Australian/Kiwi) media attention, there is little to no chance of tier 2 nations making serious headway or notice nationally. England (et al.) can ensure the game is televised, in front of a crowd in a decent stadium.

It is being totally aloof to suggest otherwise, bordering on arrogance.

I'm perfectly happy if we want to say that Ireland or Scotland shouldn't be a priority and that our time should be focussed elsewhere. Problem is we don't, or barely, play anyone else either.

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10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose we are debating hypothesis' so suppose we have to agree to disagree. I'd love you to be right, but I just don't see it. I don't see England as this huge draw in Ireland, Wales, Scotland or London. 

I expect we'd be talking 4 to 6k in any of those nations, maximum, maybe lower. I think we'd be lucky to get 8 to 10k in England. Now to be fair, that may be a decent starter for 10, particularly in appropriate grounds, but I just think the crowds would dwindle with uneven matches. 

I don't totally disagree, though even at those modest levels, you'd be massively increasing the numbers usually had there. IImagine what the RLI or WRL could do with some of the money made there.

Hopefully, that is where consistent heritage players turning up will help competitiveness.

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

Its not snobbery its facts. 

Without English (and Australian/Kiwi) media attention, there is little to no chance of tier 2 nations making serious headway or notice nationally. England (et al.) can ensure the game is televised, in front of a crowd in a decent stadium.

It is being totally aloof to suggest otherwise, bordering on arrogance.

I'm perfectly happy if we want to say that Ireland or Scotland shouldn't be a priority and that our time should be focussed elsewhere. Problem is we don't, or barely, play anyone else either.

I definitely think you are overstating England's brand value. 

I have long since advocated a strengthening of the Euro Championships, I've watched a few Scotland games and enjoyed them all, but I think the focus should be on the organisation of them, regularity, venue selection, scheduling, format of the tournament etc, to try and deliver outcomes of TV coverage, sponsorship and crowds should be the focus imho. 

The comp is always done as a bare minimum, it needs a structured home and away format, even if done over a 2 year period. 

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5 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's nonsense and a real lazy argument with absolutely no understanding of how popular Soccer is in Ireland. It is huge and is certainly not a minority sport. It is widely played and thousands travel across the water every week to watch games. People have a huge connection with it and Ireland have always had plenty of top flight Soccer players. Any heritage players supplement that.

It is not a case of an entirely false and artificial team playing a sport that no one plays, few watch and hardly anyone has any connection to. 

So if Keary is selected you won't be going to the LSV, but I suppose on principle after all you have said you will be there if there are no English or Antiopdean accents to be heard from those who have not got a least 6 games under their belts?

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10 minutes ago, Damien said:

It's nonsense and a real lazy argument with absolutely no understanding of how popular Soccer is in Ireland. It is huge and is certainly not a minority sport. It is widely played and thousands travel across the water every week to watch games. People have a huge connection with it and Ireland have always had plenty of top flight Soccer players. Any heritage players supplement that.

It is not a case of an entirely false and artificial team playing a sport that no one plays, few watch and hardly anyone has any connection to. 

They haven't always had plenty of top flight soccer players. They've had a handful of good ones at any one time, the rest have been brought over from the English and Scottish leagues - Big Jack made that very clear in his no League of Ireland policy. Historically that is, they are trying to move to a homegrown model much more now, even if they go on to (scottish) Premier league etc.

Nobody plays or does half the Olympic sports. There is zero connection to the actual sport for 90% of the audience. Yet international competition universalises this so that it is accessible.

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Just now, Mr Frisky said:

Seems like you resent a team representing Ireland is playing in the Rugby WC - very sad.

How do you get publicity if you don't even try?

Seems like you don't have a clue what you are talking about and have jumped into a thread without reading it. Why would I resent an Irish team? That's laughable. I'm happy for Ireland to be there. However I am realistic about what benefits this brings.

Ireland having a competitive team based on heritage players benefits the World Cup and RL. I dont particularly have an issue with it and as I have already said I am quite pragmatic about that as it is where RL is as a sport. However we have had this for 20+ years and I know there are zero benefits to the game in Ireland from this approach. Keith was quite right some pages ago on that (where this debate started). There has been absolutely no growth using this approach and if anything the game has gone backwards. 

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I definitely think you are overstating England's brand value. 

I have long since advocated a strengthening of the Euro Championships, I've watched a few Scotland games and enjoyed them all, but I think the focus should be on the organisation of them, regularity, venue selection, scheduling, format of the tournament etc, to try and deliver outcomes of TV coverage, sponsorship and crowds should be the focus imho. 

The comp is always done as a bare minimum, it needs a structured home and away format, even if done over a 2 year period. 

Given England are the only brand value in the NH I'm not sure what else we can rely on sadly.

If it is England, and we are taking it seriously, we should build with it. It may be that we have missed the boat as broadcasters cut back, but who can say till we try? There is a long term effect of this.

I agree the Euro Championships should be an easy growth area on basic things. 

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9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not snobbery its facts. 

Without English (and Australian/Kiwi) media attention, there is little to no chance of tier 2 nations making serious headway or notice nationally. England (et al.) can ensure the game is televised, in front of a crowd in a decent stadium.

It is being totally aloof to suggest otherwise, bordering on arrogance.

I'm perfectly happy if we want to say that Ireland or Scotland shouldn't be a priority and that our time should be focussed elsewhere. Problem is we don't, or barely, play anyone else either.

I remember various England v Wales games played in front of tiny crowds. I think you completely overstate this.

That is not to say I wouldn't do it or that we shouldn't attempt to grow these things. However that should be mid season games and not end of season and as we all know NRL players won't then play anyway. 

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Just now, Damien said:

I remember various England v Wales games played in front of tiny crowds. I think you completely overstate this.

That is not to say I wouldn't do it or that we shouldn't attempt to grow these things. However that should be mid season games and not end of season and as we all know NRL players won't then play anyway. 

The last one was over 10 years ago at the LSV and still got over 10k so it can't be too bad...

Perhaps then you provide the ideal schedule by accident? In years with no Australia or NZ here, England play France and Wales mid season (without NRL players) and Scotland and/or Ireland post season (with NRL players), as well as anyone else such as the PI teams on tour or Lebanon or Serbia.

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12 minutes ago, Damien said:

Seems like you don't have a clue what you are talking about and have jumped into a thread without reading it. Why would I resent an Irish team? That's laughable. I'm happy for Ireland to be there. However I am realistic about what benefits this brings.

Ireland having a competitive team based on heritage players benefits the World Cup and RL. I dont particularly have an issue with it and as I have already said I am quite pragmatic about that as it is where RL is as a sport. However we have had this for 20+ years and I know there are zero benefits to the game in Ireland from this approach. Keith was quite right some pages ago on that (where this debate started). There has been absolutely no growth using this approach and if anything the game has gone backwards. 

So on a public forum you don't like it when other people 'jump in' on your ramblings.... do you know how this forum works?

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5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They haven't always had plenty of top flight soccer players. They've had a handful of good ones at any one time, the rest have been brought over from the English and Scottish leagues - Big Jack made that very clear in his no League of Ireland policy. Historically that is, they are trying to move to a homegrown model much more now, even if they go on to (scottish) Premier league etc.

Nobody plays or does half the Olympic sports. There is zero connection to the actual sport for 90% of the audience. Yet international competition universalises this so that it is accessible.

I mean you can keep telling Irish people or people that live there that they are wrong and that RL is exactly the same as Soccer in Ireland or you can listen to what they have to say. It's actually very patronising and telling people they are wrong changes nothing. It seems like people are blinded by the likes of Tonga without realising that the circumstances are completely different. 

Using this approach there has been zero growth and international crowds are still tiny, even for Ireland v Australia in 2013. Saying to Irish people they are wrong and that they should love an artificial heritage team will not change that.

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18 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So if Keary is selected you won't be going to the LSV, but I suppose on principle after all you have said you will be there if there are no English or Antiopdean accents to be heard from those who have not got a least 6 games under their belts?

I have already said heritage players dont particularly bother me and it is where we are as a sport if we want a competitive World Cup. However don't pretend it brings benefits to the game in Ireland or that it is the same as what happens in other sports.

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3 minutes ago, Damien said:

I mean you can keep telling Irish people or people that live there that they are wrong and that RL is exactly the same as Soccer in Ireland or you can listen to what they have to say. It's actually very patronising and telling people they are wrong changes nothing. It seems like people are blinded by the likes of Tonga without realising that the circumstances are completely different. 

Using this approach there has been zero growth and international crowds are still tiny, even for Ireland v Australia in 2013. Saying to Irish people they are wrong and that they should love an artificial heritage team will not change that.

Why did you lose your job as the International Rugby League sponsorship and publicity manager again...🤔🤔

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Just now, Damien said:

I mean you can keep telling Irish people or people that live there that they are wrong and that RL is exactly the same as Soccer in Ireland or you can listen to what they have to say. It's actually very patronising and telling people they are wrong changes nothing. It seems like people are blinded by the likes of Tonga without realising that the circumstances are completely different. 

Using this approach there has been zero growth and international crowds are still tiny, even for Ireland v Australia in 2013. Saying to Irish people they are wrong and that they should love an artificial heritage team will not change that.

Have I said that?

Look mate I know you feel passionately about this and do every time this thread comes up, but there is no need start bandying around words like patronising like you are the only one who has an authoritative opinion or skin in the game here.

FWIW I think the logical next stage for Irish RL is to bring in local born players into a competitive national side and ultimately into the professional club game. Moreover, to play with that competitive international side against money making opposition (be that England away or even on tour to Australia), to then reinvest that money into Rugby League in Ireland. They've hit the ceiling of the amateur setup now imo, and need a gear change to progress further.

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14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The last one was over 10 years ago at the LSV and still got over 10k so it can't be too bad...

Perhaps then you provide the ideal schedule by accident? In years with no Australia or NZ here, England play France and Wales mid season (without NRL players) and Scotland and/or Ireland post season (with NRL players), as well as anyone else such as the PI teams on tour or Lebanon or Serbia.

That was a 4 nations with Australia and NZ.

And the last game got 4k at Wrexham and England won 80 - 12.

If NRL players wanted to play for Ireland or Scotland end of season then they have had ample opportunity. They have shown absolutely no inclination to do so bar World Cup time.

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1 minute ago, Damien said:

That was a 4 nations with Australia and NZ.

And the last game got 4k at Wrexham and England won 80 - 12.

If NRL players wanted to play for Ireland or Scotland end of season then they have had ample opportunity. They have shown absolutely no inclination to do so bar World Cup time.

I do think there is also a question of funding around this. This is where the international governing bodies should be underwriting costs associated with these comps to support nations putting their best team on the park. 

Developing credible tournaments as I highlighted above, with some profile and costs covered and that will help create consistent teams instead o the two tier system we currently have. 

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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

That was a 4 nations with Australia and NZ.

And the last game got 4k at Wrexham and England won 80 - 12.

If NRL players wanted to play for Ireland or Scotland end of season then they have had ample opportunity. They have shown absolutely no inclination to do so bar World Cup time.

I suspect because at World Cup time is the only time it bears any resemblence to a professional outfit. It is a significant layout for these players, they aren't millionaires.

Identify the problems and deal with them.

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do think there is also a question of funding around this. This is where the international governing bodies should be underwriting costs associated with these comps to support nations putting their best team on the park. 

Developing credible tournaments as I highlighted above, with some profile and costs covered and that will help create consistent teams instead o the two tier system we currently have. 

I remember these tournaments and as far as I recall this was essentially an England B team too. I'm not sure adding England adds anything that you don't get anyway from just Wales, France and Ireland and it certainly didnt add to the crowds previously. I dont recall a flood of NRL players eager to play either:

137 2 November 2003 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 102–0 23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia 2003 European Cup England Odsal Stadium, Bradford 1,376
138 9 November 2003 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 22–4 23px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png Wales England Headingley, Leeds 2,124
139 16 November 2003 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 68–6 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France England Wilderspool Stadium, Warrington 2,536
140 24 October 2004 23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia 4–98 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 2004 European Cup Russia Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow 1,000
141 30 October 2004 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 4–42 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England France Parc des Sports, Avignon 4,000
142 7 November 2004 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 36–12 23px-Four_Provinces_Flag.svg.png Ireland England Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington 3,582
143 23 October 2005 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 22–12 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France Friendly England Headingley, Leeds 2,609
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9 minutes ago, Damien said:

That was a 4 nations with Australia and NZ.

And the last game got 4k at Wrexham and England won 80 - 12.

 

I remember that 4 nations with Wales - i went to Wembley for the double header - however the highlight of the tournament was when Wales stunned Australia in Wrexham for the first 20 minutes with a Lee Briers kicking masterclass - the Aussies just couldn't handle him. As ever they eventually got going and won the 2nd half easily.

Used to love the 4 nations.

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4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I suspect because at World Cup time is the only time it bears any resemblence to a professional outfit. It is a significant layout for these players, they aren't millionaires.

Identify the problems and deal with them.

Yes. This.

There seems to be some posters on here who live in a fantasy world of professional players who are desperate to pull on the no-name kit of Wales RL, and trot out at some 3rd division rugby union ground on front of 430 spectators whilst not even being Welsh, and do the whole thing for free, putting their body on the line while doing so, risking injury and potential future contracts. 

Madness. 

Even the Welsh guys will probably do it once or twice (to pick up a cap) and then sack it off as too dangerous/pointless. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I remember these tournaments and as far as I recall this was essentially an England B team too. I'm not sure adding England adds anything that you don't get anyway from just Wales, France and Ireland and it certainly didnt add to the crowds previously. I dont recall a flood of NRL players eager to play either:

137 2 November 2003 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 102–0 23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia 2003 European Cup England Odsal Stadium, Bradford 1,376
138 9 November 2003 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 22–4 23px-Flag_of_Wales.svg.png Wales England Headingley, Leeds 2,124
139 16 November 2003 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 68–6 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France England Wilderspool Stadium, Warrington 2,536
140 24 October 2004 23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia 4–98 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 2004 European Cup Russia Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow 1,000
141 30 October 2004 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France 4–42 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England France Parc des Sports, Avignon 4,000
142 7 November 2004 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 36–12 23px-Four_Provinces_Flag.svg.png Ireland England Halliwell Jones Stadium, Warrington 3,582
143 23 October 2005 23px-Flag_of_England.svg.png England 22–12 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France Friendly England Headingley, Leeds 2,609

I think sometimes people forget how poor crowds can be, and forget that we have a real battle getting sponsors and tv coverage. That's not to say we shouldn't be trying, but England is not a silver bullet to these challenges. 

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