Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)

[Damien]

Just now, Dave T said:

I think sometimes people forget how poor crowds can be, and forget that we have a real battle getting sponsors and tv coverage. That's not to say we shouldn't be trying, but England is not a silver bullet to these challenges. 

The crazy thing is that some posters on here are trying to paint me as being anti these things when as you know I am probably more for these things than anyone.

Basing an international calendar on the possibility of heritage players perhaps, although history shows this not to be the case, playing for Ireland, Wales and Scotland seems crazy. Flying these players around the world and funding this seems a poor use of resources to me and doesn't develop the game in those countries at all. I actually think these countries would still be way off the level of England anyway even with NRL players, as we have seen in past matches.

At a guess a single NRL player being funded to fly across and put up for 4 weeks is probably a minimum of 15k. If we are talking resources and bang for your buck then I think it's an extraordinary poor approach and dont think it would even wet its face in terms of crowds.

[gingerjon]

20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think sometimes people forget how poor crowds can be, and forget that we have a real battle getting sponsors and tv coverage. That's not to say we shouldn't be trying, but England is not a silver bullet to these challenges. 

Just checked: Wales’s highest non World Cup home crowd in the 1990s (and I think therefore their highest in “modern” times) was against PNG.

Thus, it is obvious to me that we need each independent European RL federation to base their whole strategy on getting a game against PNG.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Just checked: Wales’s highest non World Cup home crowd in the 1990s (and I think therefore their highest in “modern” times) was against PNG.

Thus, it is obvious to me that we need each independent European RL federation to base their whole strategy on getting a game against PNG.

Was that the last time PNG (or anyone bar NZ or Australia) toured too?

[gingerjon]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Was that the last time PNG (or anyone bar NZ or Australia) toured too?

Potentially. It was a proper tour. I was at both the Wales game and one v Cumbria.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Just checked: Wales’s highest non World Cup home crowd in the 1990s (and I think therefore their highest in “modern” times) was against PNG.

Thus, it is obvious to me that we need each independent European RL federation to base their whole strategy on getting a game against PNG.

I think it's quite obvious there is a place for PNG, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa to tour and it is a travesty that they don't. If PNG could afford to tour pre the SL era then it could certainly be profitable now.

Matches against southern hemisphere nations should be what the end of season international window should be for.

[gingerjon]

15 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think it's quite obvious there is a place for PNG, Tonga, Fiji and Samoa to tour and it is a travesty that they don't. If PNG could afford to tour pre the SL era then it could certainly be profitable now.

Matches against southern hemisphere nations should be what the end of season international window should be for.

I’ve said before that we should have SH teams coming over to play multiple NH teams over a few weeks. Its exactly the kind of thing that profits from World Cups should be funding.

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Potentially. It was a proper tour. I was at both the Wales game and one v Cumbria.

Its a real shame that during the professional era sides like PNG, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga cannot tour here or likewise Wales and France in the Southern Hemisphere. 

RUs autumn internationals surely should be a rough guide if nothing else.

[jim_57]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

If we played these teams mid-year we would batter them. Tournaments are the only way to get their quality heritage players over and playing regularly. 

On your last line "it can help us too..."  I'm afraid you need to highlight the real genuine tangible benefits to the RFL to invest in these nations? We can't keep trading on soundbites. 

Just on this and just focusing on Ireland in particular, Ireland could still put out a decent squad using Super League players only. I posted a picture of a potential Ireland side pages back and Keary was the only one from NRL, the rest were Super League players.

From that article: 

1. Josh Thewlis. 2. Ethan Ryan*. 3. Toby King*. 4. Sam Wood. 5. Louis Senior. 6. Luke Keary (Replace with Myler or Field). 7. Riley Dean*. 8. Liam Byrne*. 9. Micky McIllorum*. 10. Brad Singleton*. 11. Oliver Roberts*. 12. James Bentley*. 13. George King*. 14. Liam Kay*. 15. Frankie Halton*. 16. Joe Philbin*. 17. Ronan Michael*.
Others - Alex Mellor, Ben Currie*, James McDonnell, Kyle Amor*, Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook*, Robbie Mulhern*, Richie Myler, Jai Field, Innes Senior, Joe Keyes*, Lewis Bienek*, Marc Sneyd.

* Have previously played for Ireland.

18 of those 28 Super League/Championship players have played for Ireland before and a few more may come World Cup time so there is a decent base there. I’m sure there are plenty more eligible players in Super League and Championship as well. England would still beat them but I don’t think they’d get hammered by any means.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

Just on this and just focusing on Ireland in particular, Ireland could still put out a decent squad using Super League players only. I posted a picture of a potential Ireland side pages back and Keary was the only one from NRL, the rest were Super League players.

From that article: 

1. Josh Thewlis. 2. Ethan Ryan*. 3. Toby King*. 4. Sam Wood. 5. Louis Senior. 6. Luke Keary (Replace with Myler or Field). 7. Riley Dean*. 8. Liam Byrne*. 9. Micky McIllorum*. 10. Brad Singleton*. 11. Oliver Roberts*. 12. James Bentley*. 13. George King*. 14. Liam Kay*. 15. Frankie Halton*. 16. Joe Philbin*. 17. Ronan Michael*.
Others - Alex Mellor, Ben Currie*, James McDonnell, Kyle Amor*, Louie McCarthy-Scarsbrook*, Robbie Mulhern*, Richie Myler, Jai Field, Innes Senior, Joe Keyes*, Lewis Bienek*, Marc Sneyd.

* Have previously played for Ireland.

18 of those 28 Super League/Championship players have played for Ireland before and a few more may come World Cup time so there is a decent base there. I’m sure there are plenty more eligible players in Super League and Championship as well. England would still beat them but I don’t think they’d get hammered by any means.

I suppose the problem is that two of them played in the last England game and if Ireland end up with any injuries it'll be difficult for them to replace with a similar level of player. 

In reality, the team would be much weaker than that and take a hiding. 

[jim_57]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I suppose the problem is that two of them played in the last England game and if Ireland end up with any injuries it'll be difficult for them to replace with a similar level of player. 

In reality, the team would be much weaker than that and take a hiding. 

That problem isn’t unique to Ireland though, France are in a similar boat likewise PNG & Fiji in the Southern Hemisphere.

The main point I’m getting at is that I don’t think Ireland, France, Wales or Scotland are going to be significantly stronger post-season compared mid-season. If anything the gap would probably widen if/when England called up their NRL contingent. They may lose some to injury but they still have a solid base of eligible players to give England a decent game with Super League players only.

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

That problem isn’t unique to Ireland though, France are in a similar boat likewise PNG & Fiji in the Southern Hemisphere.

The main point I’m getting at is that I don’t think Ireland, France, Wales or Scotland are going to be significantly stronger post-season compared mid-season. If anything the gap would probably widen if/when England called up their NRL contingent. They may lose some to injury but they still have a solid base of eligible players to give England a decent game with Super League players only.

And I think that's where we disagree. The performances and results of the European Nations don't really support the view that games against England will be decent. 

I think there is value in a competitive tournament between the Euro Nations that doesn't need England. 

[The Rocket]

On 03/08/2022 at 20:05, Damien said:

And I was criticised for stating this was a major issue with Samoa in previous World Cups. He is not the first Samoan player to come out with a statement like this over the years either.

"I guess probably my last World Cup wasn't the best." he said. "I sort of treated it as a little vacation and probably drank a bit too often, and ate more than I should have," he said.

Difference is is that Papalii was saying that about being in the Australian team camp during the last World Cup. Which makes me wonder a) exactly how hard the Aussies had to try and reveals more about their mindset, and b) your observation/criticism of past Samoan teams mindset may be more to do with previously them not really thinking they ever had a chance of winning, hence the possibly lax/holiday with my Samoan mates attitude. 

Makes me wonder if they`ll come with a completely different attitude this time now that they might think ` hey we can actually win this thing `.

[The Rocket]

Rugby League World Cup boss Jon Dutton this week issued a passionate rallying-cry as he confidently predicted this autumn’s event can surpass all expectations and deliver England glory.

Facing the media as the clock ticked down to 80 days before England’s opening game against Samoa, Dutton repeated assurances of anticipated record-breaking ticket sales across the men’s, women’s and wheelchair tournaments.

So with the strength of player pool no longer a concern, focus turns to bolstering ticket sales and creating noise around a tournament that Dutton hopes can catch fire in the way that the women’s Euros has grabbed the public’s imagination this summer.

“It’s just a tournament that feels special,” Dutton adds of the women’s football event that he has been attending as a supporter, and at which he has felt “palpable excitement”.

“We wouldn’t have had this in 2021. We are delighted to be amongst other events in 2022, and we have seen the positivity, optimism, and a family audience. We could see the audience adopting a nation and I think that’s similar to what we will experience.”

As for ticket sales, there is confidence of sell-outs for the England opener and the final, and it is fundamental to their strategy that they do.

This is a big ‘hold your nerve’ exercise now for organisers hopeful of a late rush of ticket sales off the back of the women’s Euros success and the forthcoming Commonwealth Games.

Between 35 to 40 games are expected to be shown on BBC1 and BBC2, and rather than that providing a reason for fans not to buy tickets, Dutton expects it to have the opposite effect. In short, UK viewers have watched the success of the Lionesses on terrestrial television and wanted a piece of it. The atmospheres have thus been electric.

Last year’s postponement prompted a refund window which saw 19% of tickets returned, but organisers are holding out hope for a frantic final six-week period which they hope will trigger a huge surge in demand. As such, 75% of the entire advertising budget is being held back for the final six weeks before the tournament starts.

Above anything, the Rugby League World Cup is being led by a fan who loves the game and would do anything to see it succeed. Last year’s postponement hit Dutton hard, and he admits he could have walked away then, citing financial losses incurred by the postponement as in the “multiple millions of pounds” and personally a real hit to his mental health. He points to an impressive array of commercial partnerships that have “massively overachieved” expectations as a big reason for optimism.

As in any sport, the most effective way to sell out stadiums is to have a winning team.

England have a brand new kit and a squad keen to prove the doubters wrong. So, soon it will be over to Shaun Wane and his players to get those stadiums full.

“There is lots of positivity despite some of the challenges that people face in terms of disposable income” Dutton admits.

“So my rallying cry to everyone who are passionate about the sport is to get behind this, it is the biggest moment in 127 years in terms of tournament rugby league.”

Rugby League | Rugby League World Cup 2021 | RLWC | Jon Dutton | Rugby League World Cup Chiefs Confident Of “Complete Buy-In” (thesportsman.com)

 

[Damien]

18 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

"I guess probably my last World Cup wasn't the best." he said. "I sort of treated it as a little vacation and probably drank a bit too often, and ate more than I should have," he said.

Difference is is that Papalii was saying that about being in the Australian team camp during the last World Cup. Which makes me wonder a) exactly how hard the Aussies had to try and reveals more about their mindset, and b) your observation/criticism of past Samoan teams mindset may be more to do with previously them not really thinking they ever had a chance of winning, hence the possibly lax/holiday with my Samoan mates attitude. 

Makes me wonder if they`ll come with a completely different attitude this time now that they might think ` hey we can actually win this thing `.

Thats a really odd take when it's quite clear he is talking about the last World Cup and in the last World Cup he played for Samoa, when again they were very poor.

[The Rocket]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Thats a really odd take when it's quite clear he is talking about the last World Cup and in the last World Cup he played for Samoa, when again they were very poor.

My mistake I thought he was in the Aussie team. Still stand by what I said though about a possible shift in PI attitudes if they think that they might actually be able to win it.

[The One]

6 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Rugby League World Cup boss Jon Dutton this week issued a passionate rallying-cry as he confidently predicted this autumn’s event can surpass all expectations and deliver England glory.

Facing the media as the clock ticked down to 80 days before England’s opening game against Samoa, Dutton repeated assurances of anticipated record-breaking ticket sales across the men’s, women’s and wheelchair tournaments.

So with the strength of player pool no longer a concern, focus turns to bolstering ticket sales and creating noise around a tournament that Dutton hopes can catch fire in the way that the women’s Euros has grabbed the public’s imagination this summer.

“It’s just a tournament that feels special,” Dutton adds of the women’s football event that he has been attending as a supporter, and at which he has felt “palpable excitement”.

“We wouldn’t have had this in 2021. We are delighted to be amongst other events in 2022, and we have seen the positivity, optimism, and a family audience. We could see the audience adopting a nation and I think that’s similar to what we will experience.”

As for ticket sales, there is confidence of sell-outs for the England opener and the final, and it is fundamental to their strategy that they do.

This is a big ‘hold your nerve’ exercise now for organisers hopeful of a late rush of ticket sales off the back of the women’s Euros success and the forthcoming Commonwealth Games.

Between 35 to 40 games are expected to be shown on BBC1 and BBC2, and rather than that providing a reason for fans not to buy tickets, Dutton expects it to have the opposite effect. In short, UK viewers have watched the success of the Lionesses on terrestrial television and wanted a piece of it. The atmospheres have thus been electric.

Last year’s postponement prompted a refund window which saw 19% of tickets returned, but organisers are holding out hope for a frantic final six-week period which they hope will trigger a huge surge in demand. As such, 75% of the entire advertising budget is being held back for the final six weeks before the tournament starts.

Above anything, the Rugby League World Cup is being led by a fan who loves the game and would do anything to see it succeed. Last year’s postponement hit Dutton hard, and he admits he could have walked away then, citing financial losses incurred by the postponement as in the “multiple millions of pounds” and personally a real hit to his mental health. He points to an impressive array of commercial partnerships that have “massively overachieved” expectations as a big reason for optimism.

As in any sport, the most effective way to sell out stadiums is to have a winning team.

England have a brand new kit and a squad keen to prove the doubters wrong. So, soon it will be over to Shaun Wane and his players to get those stadiums full.

“There is lots of positivity despite some of the challenges that people face in terms of disposable income” Dutton admits.

“So my rallying cry to everyone who are passionate about the sport is to get behind this, it is the biggest moment in 127 years in terms of tournament rugby league.”

Rugby League | Rugby League World Cup 2021 | RLWC | Jon Dutton | Rugby League World Cup Chiefs Confident Of “Complete Buy-In” (thesportsman.com)

 

Looks like they are aiming to get new fans, which fits with the pricing structure. Hopefully it will pay off.

[Dave T]

49 minutes ago, The One said:

Looks like they are aiming to get new fans, which fits with the pricing structure. Hopefully it will pay off.

 

50 minutes ago, The One said:

Looks like they are aiming to get new fans, which fits with the pricing structure. Hopefully it will pay off.

The word 'hope' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in these articles. 

The games mentioned as sellouts does appear to reduce with every article too. 

It's be interesting to know what the millions of losses for the delay refers to as well. 

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

The word 'hope' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in these articles. 

The games mentioned as sellouts does appear to reduce with every article too. 

It's be interesting to know what the millions of losses for the delay refers to as well. 

I am a bit amazed at 75% of the entire advertising budget being held back for the last 6 weeks. There seems an awful lot of hoping things just come good at the end, which obviously I hope happens. it is also quite possible as these things can quickly build a momentum.

I can well believe that pushing things back a year can lead to big losses. Ramping the entire event up for another year, additional advertising, staffing costs, dealing with contractual obligations etc. I'm just spit balling but I can well believe it and it was never as simple as the NRL tried to make out.

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

I am a bit amazed at 75% of the entire advertising budget being held back for the last 6 weeks. There seems an awful lot of hoping things just come good at the end, which obviously I hope happens. it is also quite possible as these things can quickly build a momentum.

I can well believe that pushing things back a year can lead to big losses. Ramping the entire event up for another year, additional advertising, staffing costs, dealing with contractual obligations etc. I'm just spit balling but I can well believe it and it was never as simple as the NRL tried to make out.

The main thing that worries me is that if they have the data which shows the last 6 weeks is where people buy, I hope that doesn't mean that we are targeting our existing customers. 

I'd have thought targeting event crowds would have meant that they were likely to buy early. 

Although I would say tickets have still been sold very late for the Women's Euros and Commonwealth Games, so maybe that is just the way they sell at the moment. 

[Damien]

17 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The main thing that worries me is that if they have the data which shows the last 6 weeks is where people buy, I hope that doesn't mean that we are targeting our existing customers. 

I'd have thought targeting event crowds would have meant that they were likely to buy early. 

Although I would say tickets have still been sold very late for the Women's Euros and Commonwealth Games, so maybe that is just the way they sell at the moment. 

Agreed. All of Dutton's previous comments about RL buyer behaviour worryingly show that they are focussing strategy in what they believe RL fans do (and we have discussed the reasoning why enough times on that) rather than what the wider sports fan may do. They should be doing both.

[Toby Chopra]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The main thing that worries me is that if they have the data which shows the last 6 weeks is where people buy, I hope that doesn't mean that we are targeting our existing customers. 

I'd have thought targeting event crowds would have meant that they were likely to buy early. 

Although I would say tickets have still been sold very late for the Women's Euros and Commonwealth Games, so maybe that is just the way they sell at the moment. 

It's a high risk strategy but at the same time I do think there's something in your point about changes in the sports market. 

Anecdotally, in the current period of economic uncertainty and cost of living shocks, I do feel that lots of people are putting off purchases, holidays, trips etc until the latest they possibly can, to be sure that they can afford it, and really need it. 

Indeed it could be even more nerve-wracking. If we're hoping to cash in on an England feelgood vibe, especially with the women, then it's going to be a good couple of weeks into the tournament before we can make that push. It may only be the knockout stages that really benefit, although that would still be a good boost if all remaining games including the non-England ones got an uplift, like they did at the Women's euros. 

A really high risk strategy, but also possibly the only one available to them. 

[Man of Kent]

I still can't book a train ticket to Newcastle for the opener. It would be just our luck if there was a strike that day.

[ATLANTISMAN]

Non of this fills me with confidence I hope I am wrong.

 

P 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

I still can't book a train ticket to Newcastle for the opener. It would be just our luck if there was a strike that day.

One reason I'm still a bit unsure as to whether I'm going to Newcastle plus we're still on the summer timetable. Would be just my luck that I'd buy the match ticket thinking there was plenty of trains back on the night but basing that on the summer timetable and then have them change it which would mean when it came to buying train ticket there wouldn't be one back anymore.

I did that for the first magic weekend at Newcastle. Bought my match ticket, based my journey on summer bus timetable for getting to York for the train, buses were changed, had to find a mate that was willing to pick me up from the small town in live in just outside Hull and run me to York at about 6 in the morning. 

[Man of Kent]

37 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

One reason I'm still a bit unsure as to whether I'm going to Newcastle plus we're still on the summer timetable. Would be just my luck that I'd buy the match ticket thinking there was plenty of trains back on the night but basing that on the summer timetable and then have them change it which would mean when it came to buying train ticket there wouldn't be one back anymore.

I did that for the first magic weekend at Newcastle. Bought my match ticket, based my journey on summer bus timetable for getting to York for the train, buses were changed, had to find a mate that was willing to pick me up from the small town in live in just outside Hull and run me to York at about 6 in the morning. 

Two months out, I'd have expected to be able to book an advance train ticket by now. Weird that, as of now, you can book weekday tickets up to 7 November but there's no weekend tickets available for October.