Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)

[Stuff Smith]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Is it OK for somebody to have a problem with someone like Hastings, Austin or Heighington playing for England?

Yes, yes it is.

He was played out of position and was rubbish. He would still have been rubbish if he'd played in his natural position. Because he's rubbish. Rubbish! ( I don't really think he's rubbish. Well, I do. But not that much.)

But that's not the point about this discussion, is it?. Not in the last few posts at least.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Stuff Smith
Annoyed.

[StandOffHalf]

31 minutes ago, Stuff Smith said:

Just watched it.

It's the phrase about Farnworth, "As English as you or I, no problems with him", that does it for me. "No problems with him."? Problems elsewhere then?

I was going to make a facetious remark about "Shaun" sounding a bit foreign to me. Irish maybe.

Perhaps Eddie has been stitched up by questionable editing. But this is beyond sketchy.

Eddie and Stevo had long-standing issues with Aussies coming into the England and GB set-ups. That's clearly the context to his comments on Farnworth - an NRL-based player who many fans may not be familiar with. Before discussing Herbie, he had probably been probing Wane about his selection of Radley and saying that he sounded more Aussie than English.

The ''problems'' are accent-based, not race-based. The person editing this together is trying to insinuate that Hemmings is saying that there's ''no problem'' with Farnworth because he's white. That is clearly disingenuous.

His comments on Young were badly-worded and IMO misguided/unhelpful, but I do feel that Eddie is coming from a position of pride in the England jumper and not wanting blow-ins with an English granny to come waltzing into the set-up.

Edited October 6, 2022 by StandOffHalf

[Stuff Smith]

1 minute ago, StandOffHalf said:

Eddie and Stevo had long-standing issues with Aussies coming into the England and GB set-ups. That's clearly the context to his comments on Farnworth, an NRL-based player who many fans may not be familiar with. He had probably been probing Wane about his selection of Radley and saying that he sounded more Aussie than English.

The problems are accent-based, not race-based. The person editing this together is trying to insinuate that Hemmings is saying that there's ''no problem'' with Farnworth because he's white. That is clearly disingenuous.

His comments on Young were badly-worded and IMO misguided/unhelpful, but I do feel that Eddie is coming from a position of pride in the England jumper and not wanting blow-ins with an English granny to come waltzing into the set-up.

100% agree with this.

But Eddie....actually not Eddie.

Anyone who is filming or editing or producing this content needs to get their heads screwed on: you are promoting an undervalued sport. Take care!

[Maximus Decimus]

16 minutes ago, Stuff Smith said:

Yes, yes it is.

He was played out of position and was rubbish. He would still have been rubbish if he'd played in his natural position. Because he's rubbish. Rubbish! ( I don't really think he's rubbish. Well, I do. But not that much.)

Seriously, no. But that's not the point about this discussion, is it?. Not in the last few posts at least.

Essentially, this is exactly what it boils down to.

Hemmings clearly isn't a fan of using born and bred Australians/Kiwis to represent England because they are technically eligible. 

Regardless of how it is being treated on here, I don't think that is a particularly controversial opinion and certainly not an opinion that is beyond the pale.

Instead of the idea that Hemmings is a dangerous racist, it is far more likely that he is coming from a position of someone who doesn't like people jumping nations or representing England as a second choice.

 

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Eddie and Stevo had long-standing issues with Aussies coming into the England and GB set-ups. That's clearly the context to his comments on Farnworth - an NRL-based player who many fans may not be familiar with. Before discussing Herbie, he had probably been probing Wane about his selection of Radley and saying that he sounded more Aussie than English.

The ''problems'' are accent-based, not race-based. The person editing this together is trying to insinuate that Hemmings is saying that there's ''no problem'' with Farnworth because he's white. That is clearly disingenuous.

His comments on Young were badly-worded and IMO misguided/unhelpful, but I do feel that Eddie is coming from a position of pride in the England jumper and not wanting blow-ins with an English granny to come waltzing into the set-up.

He described Dom Young, a man who was born in the North of England as "not English, in the strict sense of the word" just because he is also eligible for another country. 

Irrespective of any comparisons with other players, that is just bang wrong. 

[StandOffHalf]

2 minutes ago, Stuff Smith said:

100% agree with this.

But Eddie....actually not Eddie.

Anyone who is filming or editing or producing this content needs to get their heads screwed on: you are promoting an undervalued sport. Take care!

The interview has clearly been leaked and edited down to this clip by someone outside the Betfred team.

This doesn't appear to be an official Betfred preview clip. There's at least that!

[Dave T]

Just now, StandOffHalf said:

The interview has clearly been leaked and edited down to this clip by someone outside the Betfred team.

This doesn't appear to be an official Betfred preview clip. There's at least that!

I believe it was online in full before Betfred pulled it. This now is a trimmed version of the controversial bits in question. 

[Maximus Decimus]

10 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Eddie and Stevo had long-standing issues with Aussies coming into the England and GB set-ups. That's clearly the context to his comments on Farnworth, an NRL-based player who many fans may not be familiar with. He had probably been probing Wane about his selection of Radley and saying that he sounded more Aussie than English.

The problems are accent-based, not race-based. The person editing this together is trying to insinuate that Hemmings is saying that there's ''no problem'' with Farnworth because he's white. That is clearly disingenuous.

His comments on Young were badly-worded and IMO misguided/unhelpful, but I do feel that Eddie is coming from a position of pride in the England jumper and not wanting blow-ins with an English granny to come waltzing into the set-up.

This is exactly how I took it. 

[StandOffHalf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

He described Dom Young, a man who was born in the North of England as "not English, in the strict sense of the word" just because he is also eligible for another country. 

Irrespective of any comparisons with other players, that is just bang wrong. 

I was responding to his comments on Farnworth.

I agree that his comments on Young were wrong and out-of-place. I think he said what he did because Young had originally indicated he was going to play for another country.

[Dave T]

Just now, StandOffHalf said:

I was responding to his comments on Farnworth.

I agree that his comments on Young were wrong and out-of-place. I think he said what he did because Young had originally indicated he was going to play for another country.

Yes, sorry, it was more a general point rather than a direct response to your post. 

But even if Young had indicated he may play for someone else, it doesn't stop him being English. 

[Maximus Decimus]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

He described Dom Young, a man who was born in the North of England as "not English, in the strict sense of the word" just because he is also eligible for another country. 

Irrespective of any comparisons with other players, that is just bang wrong. 

It's clumsy yes, but it's not necessarily racist.

I'd still like to see the whole thing, because it cuts out as Wane is explaining that he lives in Wakefield.

[Dave T]

Just now, Maximus Decimus said:

It's clumsy yes, but it's not necessarily racist.

I'd still like to see the whole thing, because it cuts out as Wane is explaining that he lives in Wakefield.

I think an old white guy saying a young black guy born in Burnley is not English is always going to be a tough defence. 

[Maximus Decimus]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Yes, sorry, it was more a general point rather than a direct response to your post. 

But even if Young had indicated he may play for someone else, it doesn't stop him being English. 

I suspect that if you asked Hemmings this he would almost certainly agree, especially if he knew he was born and raised here.

I think it's far more likely that he misspoke than was insinuating that Dom Young isn't fully English because of his race.

[Dave T]

Just now, Maximus Decimus said:

I suspect that if you asked Hemmings this he would almost certainly agree, especially if he knew he was born and raised here.

I think it's far more likely that he misspoke than was insinuating that Dom Young isn't fully English because of his race.

There is rather a lot of a benefit of the doubt here for Hemmings. 

What is the indication that he misspoke? 

[Maximus Decimus]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think an old white guy saying a young black guy born in Burnley is not English is always going to be a tough defence. 

I agree they should have taken it down. 

However, I also think this is a case of people being all too willing to believe it must be to do with race.

If he'd said the same thing about a player with Irish heritage (which he absolutely could have) nobody would have ever heard it or batted an eyelid.

[StandOffHalf]

3 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I suspect that if you asked Hemmings this he would almost certainly agree, especially if he knew he was born and raised here.

I think it's far more likely that he misspoke than was insinuating that Dom Young isn't fully English because of his race.

Yeah, I think this is the crux of it. I think he probably thought Young was Jamaican-born and had grown up in Yorkshire.

I hope Eddie comes out and clarifies his position, when possible. I don't think he's a racist.

[Maximus Decimus]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There is rather a lot of a benefit of the doubt here for Hemmings. 

What is the indication that he misspoke? 

Because it is quite a stretch to believe that not only does Hemmings think Black English people are not English in the strictest sense, but that he would be so far removed from the modern world that he wouldn't realise that it would be a problematic comment to make.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

Because it is quite a stretch to believe that not only does Hemmings think Black English people are not English in the strictest sense, but that he would be so far removed from the modern world that he wouldn't realise that it would be a problematic comment to make.

Well it was a problematic statement to make and he did make it. Which has led to a Betfred and RFL statement, so the 2nd part is absolutely true. 

On the first part, only he knows what goes on in his head. But I've met racist people before, they do exist. 

[Stuff Smith]

But if you were in the production team, wouldn't you have thought, "hold on, maybe we should retake that".

Because, as it stands, it's not portraying the sport particularly well..

[Maximus Decimus]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well it was a problematic statement to make and he did make it. Which has led to a Betfred and RFL statement, so the 2nd part is absolutely true. 

On the first part, only he knows what goes on in his head. But I've met racist people before, they do exist. 

They also aren't nearly as prevalent as people love to make them out to be. They are even rarer when speaking out in the open.

 

[Maximus Decimus]

18 minutes ago, Stuff Smith said:

But if you were in the production team, wouldn't you have thought, "hold on, maybe we should retake that".

Because, as it stands, it's not portraying the sport particularly well..

Bear in mind, we only see a heavily edited clip. It's clear they've been already been talking about players who in Eddie's opinion aren't 'English in the strict sense.' Players who by the way must have been white. Maybe in this wider context, it didn't seem so racially charged.

Also, Wane replies with 'no, no, no he lives in Wakefield and his mum...' before being spliced to make it look like they go straight onto Farnworth. For all we know it was cleared up in the moment.

[Maximus Decimus]

34 minutes ago, Stuff Smith said:

But if you were in the production team, wouldn't you have thought, "hold on, maybe we should retake that".

Because, as it stands, it's not portraying the sport particularly well..

There is actually a longer clip available, although it doesn't include who they've been talking about before either. The poster seems to think it still looks bad, but I don't.

 

I think it's pretty clear that it was part of a conversation around players being committed only to England. Eddie even quotes Gus Gould saying 'which nation do you cry for when you sing the national anthem,' before saying 'that's it in a nutshell.' 

I suspect heavily he was talking about Radley prior to this, and then is questioning the loyalty of Young to England, which is why Wane replies about how he said he classes himself as English and wants to play for England.

Let's not forget, as late as July it was being reported that Young was going to play for Jamaica.

[Dave T]

I'm still confused by the conversation on Young. Did neither Eddie or Shaun Wane know he was born and grew up in England? 

[Stuff Smith]

If I was in the production team, I would question why was there *any* focus on how English the members of the English Rugby League team were.

Would this happen in similar circumstances with the English cricket team? (I know nothing about cricket.)

[Dunbar]

Wane has been walking a fine line for some time describing how he wants people who are committed to the English team and how he will not contemplate players with tenuous heritage links.  Whether we agree or disagree with this, it is an area where you have to be very careful with your language. 

They will have spoken about Radley and the fact he was born and raised in Australia but with an English father and the fact he could choose between Australia and England to represent and whether this meant he wasn't 100% an English Rugby League player.

With Young eligible to play for Jamaica, Hemmings seems to imply that he is in the same category. 

At best it is horribly horribly clumsy language and at worst a question of whether a young black man born and raised in England is truly English.  The former is bad and the latter horrendous. 

I want to believe that it was nothing more than poorly thought through questions and answers (and misleading editing) . 

But it is another instance where our low profile as a sport is a genuine blessing.